posted on April 25, 2001 06:32:27 PM new
Damon claims that Paypal will not restrict accounts over one dispute. Paypal TOS states the PP does not get involved in buyer-seller disputes over quality of merchandise. PP's TOS states that buyer has to try to work things out with the seller and not contact PP unless 30 days have passed with no resolution. Yet a report has come in of a seller with a long record of positive sales who is being harrassed by an irrational buyer. Buyer wants a refund but refuses to return the item. Buyer has no proof of fraud other than his word. Yet he complains to PP and gets the sellers' account restricted, even though seller agreed to refund.
I know the cheerleaders will say we are only hearing one side of it, but in the thread both buyer and seller post their side and it is very obvious that seller is more than reasonable and buyer is irrational. In any case, this is a claim of item quality, buyer has no proof of fraud, seller was never contacted by Paypal.
I can't link to another board here so go to my paypal page and the link is there.
posted on April 25, 2001 07:22:26 PM new
Hi yisgood,
You can have the seller contact me if this is the case. However, are you sure that they have not violated any of the terms of use and that they are following the guidelines of the Seller Protection Program? And, can you view the documentation between the buyer and seller's accounts before making declarative statements?
posted on April 25, 2001 11:26:52 PM new
Hi yisgood,
The information suggests that the user had a transaction "Pending Reversed". This is not an account restriction. The transaction isolation was a feature you requested to avoid account restrictions (in the event of a charge back or dispute) and the seller simply needs to return the information relative to the Seller Protection Program (another suggestion of yours to protect sellers).
posted on April 26, 2001 06:21:36 AM new
>>However, are you sure that they have not violated any of the terms of use and that they are following the guidelines of the Seller Protection Program? And, can you view the documentation between the buyer and seller's accounts before making declarative statements? <<
Did you read the thread? This is one of those rare occasions where we can see BOTH sides of the issue. The BUYER started the thread with his ranting. He admits that he has no evidence to back up his claim other than his own expertise. He admits the he refuses to have a third party back him up. He refuses to return the item. The seller has promised a refund upon return of the item. Yet Paypal has done a reversal or restriction (the seller says account restriction but the paypal letter says reversal) based entirely on the buyer's claim. Shouldn't paypal give the seller the opportunity to respond? Shouldnt paypal FIRST make the buyer return the item before restricting or reversing the payment? Now the buyer has BOTH the merchandise and the money. Would you be happy if YOUR bank shut down your account or reversed a payment made to you based only on a phone call? Name one other service that operates this way. It is also against Paypal's TOU.
Here is what seller said:
"..a refund at this point is moot. He has made a complaint to Paypal, and now my paypal account is frozen. I can't give a refund until the Paypal investigation is completed. All this buyer did was prolong his receipt of the refund."
posted on April 26, 2001 07:15:59 AM newyisgoodDid you read the thread?
Maybe you need to read more on the thread. Questions have been asked and the seller has made some more comments. The seller seems to be supporting Damon's position.
posted on April 26, 2001 08:43:41 AM new
Wrong, yisgood. Seller regularly confuses facts. Tries to weasel. Needs a clue or two. Buyer might be worse, but this seller is no prize.
posted on April 26, 2001 09:54:05 AM new
Hi yisgood,
The information seems to support my contention that the account is not restricted. The seller received a pending reversal email and they would be asked to follow the guidleines of the Seller Protection Program.
posted on April 26, 2001 10:29:12 AM new
>>The information seems to support my contention that the account is not restricted. The seller received a pending reversal email and they would be asked to follow the guidleines of the Seller Protection Program.<<
Damon: You are half right. The account was not restricted, just the payment frozen. But the buyer/seller protection is only for claims of non-shipment. From Paypal's TOU:
"This Additional Protection does not apply to disputes about the quality or attributes of delivered goods"
Now since the buyer admitted that he got the goods, what other proof can the seller offer? Is there a new requirement for sellers to have every shipment appraised?
The point that some folks have missed is that Paypal has just given a new weapon to the scammers. They can use their credit cards, have the items shipped to the proper address and then blackmail the seller "give me a refund or I'll call Paypal and have them take it from you." No proof necessary. And this can happen even if the seller has a record of over 300 positives and only 2 negatives, which I would think indicates the she is not a fraud risk.
Has anyone heard of any other service treating sellers this way? I had a buyer who paid me with a credit card directly, attempt to extort money from me. He told me that I either give him a partial refund or he would do a charge back. When he attempted the charge back he was asked is "Can you provide proof that you returned the merchandise?" Since he hadn't returned the merchandise, the charge back was denied.
posted on April 26, 2001 11:39:52 AM new
Hi yisgood,
So, your suggestions about pending reversals and Buyer/Seller Protection are not good? This is exactly what you asked for.
All the seller has to do is provide the documentation to eliminate the liability. If a refund has been offered to the buyer, that would help as well. If the buyer does a charge back, we will quite possibly restrict their account for attempting to game the system.
posted on April 26, 2001 11:58:49 AM new
>>So, your suggestions about pending reversals and Buyer/Seller Protection are not good? This is exactly what you asked for.<<
What I asked for is that instead of freezing entire accounts, you take back the one charge back. That appears to have been done and I do give credit where credit is due. What I am asking about is why did Paypal interfere when the TOU states that PP does not get involved in disputes over item quality?
>>All the seller has to do is provide the documentation to eliminate the liability.<<
What documentation can the seller provide in this case? Is there a new PP requirement that all items must now be appraised? The buyer is not disputing that he received the item, so all your protection requirements (trackable delivery, shipping to the confirmed address) are moot. And what documentation does the buyer have to produce, or is a verbal, unsubstantiated complaint enough to rip off a seller with a good track record?
What bothers me is that in the past, others have complained about receiving things different than what was ordered. Someone accidentally paid $1013 instead of 10.13. In each case you stated that Paypal will only get involved if NO item was shipped but not in disputes over quality. It is even in your TOU. What happened here and what can other sellers do (if anything) to prevent it from happening to them?
The sender may have filed a charge back. I don't have access to the records on the case, but I am telling you all the seller needs to provide is the information requested in the Seller Protection Program (proof of shipping,etc).
posted on April 26, 2001 01:09:14 PM new
>>The sender may have filed a charge back<<
Since the auction only ended on the 8th, it is difficult to believe that in this time the buyer paid, the painting was received, the buyer and the seller emailed back and forth, a charge back was made and paypal notified. We have all heard how it takes a long time before Paypal is notified of a charge back and managed to contact the seller. The buyer claims that he contacted paypal and paypal decided to act.
In any case, I have invited the seller to come here and read this post and to contact Damon. Maybe this will be one of the rare times where we will actually find out how a problem gets resolved.
posted on April 26, 2001 01:18:04 PM new
Hi yisgood,
That is fine with me. A report could have also come from the credit card company. There are several possibilities that I have mentioned about why there would be a pending reversal. This can be cleared up quickly with the proper documentation.
posted on April 26, 2001 05:43:16 PM new
<b>Hi All! I am the seller with the pending-reversal account. Here is the email that paypal sent me.</b>
<<Subj: Notification of Pending Reversed Transaction
Date: 4/20/01 9:58:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
Dear **** *****,
It has come to our attention that you may be the recipient of potentially fraudulent funds. We have initiated an investigation
into this event. In the meantime, we have placed a pending reversal on the funds in question until the investigation is complete. This pending reversal will
show as a deduction in your available balance. In the meantime, you are free to continue transacting using your PayPal account.
If you have questions concerning this reversal please send an email to [email protected].
Thank you,
The PayPal Account Review Department>>
<b>And the second one I received on the same day.</b>
<<Recently, PayPal received a complaint from a user regarding merchandise not received or received not-as-described. The details of this transaction are as follows:
Case Number: 42835
Transaction Date: 04/20/2001 6:57:01 AM
Transaction Amount: 501
Buyer's Email: **********
Under the guidelines of our Buyer Protection Policy, we reserve the right to place a hold on the transaction in question while we
investigate this complaint. In order to resolve this complaint, please provide PayPal with the following information:
1) Tracking Number of Shipment
2) Shipping Company Used
3) Shipping Insurance Information (if used)
All correspondence regarding this case should include your uniquecase number found above and be directed to complaint-
[email protected]. We look forward to your reply.
<b>Now here are my replies to Paypal.</>
<<In a message dated 4/20/01 9:57:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
1) Tracking Number of Shipment
2) Shipping Company Used
3) Shipping Insurance Information (if used)
Re: PayPal: Initial Inquiry: Case ID - 42835
This was shipped using the United States Postal Service. Delivery confirmation was used. The delivery confirmation number is:
03001290000774035876
The item was insured for $500 dollars. Here is the insurance numbers:
vv 648 276 584 us.
I have offered the buyer a full refund of the purchase price upon receipt of the merchandise.
We are currently in mediation through Square Trade. (An Ebay service.)
I have attached copies of the delivery confirmation form, as well as the insurance form.
******>>
<<Date: 4/24/01 10:46:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: ******
To: [email protected]
Case ID - 42835
Hi,
Could you please let me know when the hold will be removed from this account?
In my last email to you I stated that buyer was offered a refund upon return of the merchandise. He has refused to comply with this. I have done nothing illegal, or against paypal rules. The hold should be removed from this account.
<b>Here is a copy of what he has stated in our Square Trade mediations, which I also sent to Paypal.</b>
<<Case Number:
********
eBay Item Number:
1421157861
Case filed on:
Wednesday, April 18, 2001
Filer:
**********
buyer *******
Respondent:
********
seller ********
Description of Goods:
From EBay Title of Auction:
ANTIQUE VICTORIAN PAINTING - 1902 - SIGNED
Item #1421157861
Dollar amount of case:
$501
Transaction Date:
Sunday, April 08, 2001
Case Issues:
Problem:
The merchandise was different from the description.
Buyer's Request(s):
I would be satisfied if I could return the merchandise for a full refund.
Seller's Response:
Other: I was not aware this was a print. He has offered no proof. We will refund the money minus shipping. (I paid for the item to be shipped to him.)
Seller's Offered Solution:
I am willing to give a full refund if the buyer returns the merchandise.
Seller further details on response and offered solutions:
This is a copy of one of buyers emails to me.
<<****,
After speaking with my attorney today, he informed me that I should handle this immediately and not wait 3 days. Unless a full refund is made I will be filing Fraud charges with EBay and Paypal. Furthermore, we were also in touch with the NY State police and will be filing State charges as well as Federal Postal Fraud and Wire Fraud charges. Additionally, I will be emailing each bidder on all active auctions you have underway and enlightening them as to your fraudulent practices.>>
He has not returned the merchandise to me, nor at this point does he intend to BEFORE he receives a refund. As a seller I have the right to inspect, as well as receive, the merchandise before I give a refund.
I would appreciate the hold being removed as well as an update on this investigation.
******>>
<b>First, I did follow Paypal's rules. I accepted payment from a verified seller. And when requested I did send the appropriate proof, including copies of the appropriate proof!
Second, I have not received any responding emails from Paypal since this started.
Thirty days DID NOT pass before this was done to my account!
As far as the "pending-reversal" goes, the funds were not in my paypal account at that time. The funds that they are holding now are from other payments into my account, not the funds from that transaction.
And they may only do the "pending-reversal" supposedly on one transaction, but my account now shows a negative balance, which means any more monies that come in from other sources will be held by paypal until this dispute is settled or I have no longer have a negative balance. They might just as well "freeze" my entire account. It amounts to the same thing.
I have stopped selling on Ebay due to this.</b>
<<and the seller simply needs to return the information relative to the Seller Protection Program (another suggestion of yours to protect sellers).>>
<b>What more do I need to send??????</b>
<<Maybe you need to read more on the thread. Questions have been asked and the seller has made some more comments. The seller seems to be supporting Damon's position.>>
<b>What I stated in the other thread was this:
<<I am not entirely positive as Paypal has yet to answer any of my emails regarding this situation.
I think it is just the funds in question, although I am not sure. It might as well be my whole account. The whole amount was not in my account. And the amount that was in there was payment from other auctions. As it stands now, they kept the money that was in my account, and my account now shows a negative balance, so any money that gets placed into my account now will go towards the negative balance.
And it is not that I necessarily disagree with Paypal's policy. I understand what Paypal is trying to do. What I disagree with is that they do this on just a compliant form, without investigating first. I had continually offered this person a refund, and I have proof of this. Paypal did not give me an opportunity to respond BEFORE they put the pending reversal on my account. This seriously hinders my ability to buy as well as sell on Ebay. I have stopped listing auctions for the time being because of it.
I think their policy also puts the sellers in a bad position, and gives the "bad buyers" another tool to use to force the seller to comply with their demands.>>
I am still awaiting a response from Paypal, and I am still very angry that they did not allow me to provide proof BEFORE they suspended my account.
posted on April 26, 2001 05:46:39 PM new
Hi lovingangl,
That is not an account restriction notice. That is a pending reversal on a transaction notice. The team is looking for information on the transaction to complete the details of the Seller Protection Program.
Can you please send me your account email address to [email protected] so I can confirm that the account is not restricted?
You will not be liable for this charge back if you follow the details of the Seller Protection Program, which I am going to post in this as well.
The account shows a negative balance because the money is not available to sender/receiver until the documentation is provided. You are being asked for the shipping information and the tracking number on the product/transaction.
If you meet all the conditions below, the money is released back to you. If not, then you are liable for the charge back.
1.The seller has a Verified U.S. Business or Premier Account.
2.The seller ships to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
3.The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This document must show that you shipped to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
4.The seller accepted a single payment from one PayPal account for a purchase.
5.The seller shipped to a domestic (U.S.) buyer at a U.S. address.
Please review the Consumer
posted on April 26, 2001 06:29:38 PM new
lovingangl: Looks like you'll be okay. Let us know when your account has been restored. The problem with these boards is the users report the bad news but we never hear the resolution. Damon works hard and folks should also hear what he does accomplish.
damon: Can you explain something? Paypal froze this transaction because of the possibility of seller fraud. How does providing shipping info prove otherwise? I can understand this if the buyer claims the item was never received. But once the buyer admits he has it, what difference does this make?
posted on April 26, 2001 06:33:40 PM new
Hi yisgood,
The information is to eliminate the claim by the Buyer. This is a charge back issue, where there is a claim of merchandise not received (or other). The information requested will help us refute the claim and clear the seller of the liability (provided the Seller Protection Program was followed).
posted on April 26, 2001 06:40:33 PM new
>>The information is to eliminate the claim by the Buyer. This is a charge back issue, where there is a claim of merchandise not received (or other). The information requested will help us refute the claim and clear the seller of the liability (provided the Seller Protection Program was followed).<<
Damon, don't you ever take a break? I dont need the answer 5 seconds after I ask the question. I'm trying not to belabor the issue, but if the buyer does a charge back his claim will be that he got the wrong thing, not that it didn't arrive. Proof of shipping will not refute the claim.
Why does Paypal do this without verifying it first? Or at least allow me to refute it and show proof that I wasn't in the wrong?
Treating me as if I did indeed commit the fraud I was accused of (which is how this made me feel) is not the way to treat customers.
Also, this is now interfering with a resolution through Square Trade. The buyer would like a refund through Paypal. Now how am I supposed to do that if Paypal is holding some of the funds, with a negative balance for the rest of it?
You are not being treated as a fraudster. You have been given notification that someone attempted to pay you with a stolen credit card or that they have a dispute.
We are simply asking for your information to prove that you shipped the item and that you followed the details of the Seller Protection Program.
The buyer, if they have a dispute, should have contacted PayPal only or worked out the arrangements with you before filing a dispute.
The pending reversal is our method of dealing with a charge back/dispute issue and it is done by notifying the user what they need to provide and what transaction is in question.
Please supply the details in the email sent to you in order to have it resolved on our end. You can even forward the information to me (as I had suggested) and I will make sure it is given the proper attention.
posted on April 26, 2001 07:53:51 PM new
Did the buyer have a "pending-reversal" charge put on thier account as well, or was it just put on my account?
Lovingangl
[ edited by lovingangl on Apr 26, 2001 08:44 PM ]
A pending reversal means that the money is not available to either sender or recipient. This is to clear the dispute and allows us to view where the complaint is and to whom it is against.
posted on April 27, 2001 06:13:46 AM new
Damon: Please answer this question on the logic of Paypal's action.
The money was already withdrawn from the account at the time the $500 freeze was made. If the seller was a scammer, she would now abandon the account with nothing to lose. The only losers (at least temporarilly) would be the folks who continue to pay into it. If the seller is honest (which definitely appears to be the case here) then there is no point to the freeze. So what does the freeze accomplish, other than to anger a good customer and to give an irrational buyer another weapon with which to attempt extortion? What happened to Paypal's TOU which says that you do not get involved in disputes over item quality?
Incidentally, with my merchant account, no money is frozen until AFTER the determination is made. And in cases of merchandise dispute (which happened to me once and the CB was denied) customers must return the merchandise BEFORE making a charge back. They can't both keep the merchandise and ask for a refund.
First of all, I would like to thank the person who invited me here. I greatly appreciate you hooking me up with Damon. I have received more responses, as well as an offer of help, from Damon than I have from Paypal. Thank You!
Second, I would like to thank Damon for the help that he has offered, for looking into this situation, as well as helping me to clear it up. Thank You Damon!
Now, back to the discussion. I do not wish to be arguementive, but I feel this policy of Paypal's is UNFAIR! I did what I should, behaved as I should, but I was the one action was taken against.
Again, I reiterate, I understand the basic principle of why Paypal does this. What I don't agree with is the freezing of the funds with out allowing me a chance to verify the situation. And I feel that both parties should be made to show "proof" of the accusations / complaint. This does give the "bad buyers" another weapon against the sellers.
And Damon, you stated that Paypal did not treat me "Fraudenlently". Didn't they, though. I feel as if they did. Whether you call it "restricting a transaction", "freezing", "charge back", or a "pending-reversal" I do not have access to money that is rightfully mine. And saying that Paypal has not taken it, is merely "holding" it, it amounts to the same thing. I still do not have access to those funds!
No one had to prove that I had no rights to the funds BEFORE I was denied access to them. And Paypal did not allow me to verify the compliant before I was denied access to funds that belonged to me.
And if I continue using Paypal during this dispute, I will not have access to the funds for those transactions because Paypal will hold them to, until the negative balance is cleared. Which means I have no access to the shipping funds on the new transactions.
One other thing I would like to add as well. The buyer and I have come to a resolution through Square Trade. I can't agree to the resolution because Paypal is "holding" some of the funds I need to refund this buyer's money.
So, with their policy they are interferring with a "peaceful" agreement.
posted on April 27, 2001 12:50:27 PM new
Hi lovinggal,
Question:
Would you prefer that the account is restricted in the event of a dispute or would you prefer that we isolate the transaction? This is a very solid question and it is mainly because it was what sellers asked for.
Charge backs are explained in the terms of use, as well as the dispute process and the liability for them. We are asking you to remove the liability for it through the Seller Protection Program. We are not removing any money, but we are "holding" it until the dispute is cleared. You would find, with many merchant accounts or even other payment services, that you will often have charge back liability present even if you provide documentation to support that you did what you stated you were going to. This makes us a little different and it is a protection for our sellers.
I believe that this issue has been settled at this point.
posted on April 27, 2001 02:06:56 PM new
Damon: I appreciate how quickly you respond to these boards and I know that you are tracking a few of them. But I still havent gotten an answer to this question:
The money was already withdrawn from the account at the time the $500 freeze was made. If the seller was a scammer, she would now abandon the account with nothing to lose. The only losers (at least temporarilly) would be the folks who continue to pay into it. If the seller is honest (which definitely appears to be the case here) then there is no point to the freeze. So what does the freeze accomplish, other than to anger a good customer and to give an irrational buyer another weapon with which to attempt extortion?
