posted on June 13, 2001 09:36:06 PM new
Well, whatever the reason, what possible excuse can they have for even thinking about a chargeback after 16 months?
posted on June 13, 2001 09:43:47 PM new
Candibates1, someone has clearly made a mistake.
The maximum amount of time by law to investigate a chargeback is 90 days. The window for filing the claim is 60 days from the charge. I doubt a bank or card issuer would investigate a chargeback and then have the right to then sit on it for 12 months before forwarding it on.
Call the FTC and they will let you know if what PayPal is claiming is possible. 1-877-FTC-HELP. I highly doubt that it is.
posted on June 13, 2001 10:09:35 PM new
tiggressoflove: LOL!!!! Mew Quacked me Up!
Chargeback after 16 months?????
Cut:
"a complaint from a user regarding
merchandise not received or received not-as-described."
Which is it? not recieved or as described? Lotsa grey area inbetween there... The buyer ordered a monkey, got a giraffe whos head was all that was recieved?
This is what happens when its "policy on the fly" instead of... "I go to pp's website and here is a database of all the answers to circumstances such as this".
I will BET that whats happened is the buyer had been writing and writing and writing paypal and finally got bent out of shape enough to call her/his bank and His/Her bank said LOOK Fella's, this is OUR customer, this is OUR MONEY, and YOU are/were in NO WAY authorized BY US to make ANY determination pertinent to OUR cardholder, reverse it or we'll be speaking with the state banking authority and your card processor or some such jibe.
Remember PP is not a bank and they are not a card processor, they are THE MERCHANT.
When you use it THEY are the seller. They perform the charge, when the cardholder gets their statement its doesnt say "your eBay seller on it" it says the people who performed the charge.
Since you agree in TOS to the Merchant (PP) being arbitor of dispute then that as they say is that. To me its like going into a Restuarant, the moment I walk in they have me sign off on a paper saying "If you eat here and die, get sick, fall outside, fall inside, choke on our delicious chicken you agree that we are the "end of the line"... Sure sign right there.
Chargeback after 16 months!!!!
Amazing.
What would I do? Real simple. Request from the Merchant (PP) contact information to the cardholders bank and first see what the buyer is screaming about, get it resolved and see what the bank has had to deal with in trying to get the chargeback in place.
But when you "give up" things like arbitration and determinations in a terms of service these types of events can happen.
Its not paypals fault at all. They took the buyers money and sent it to you. They did the job. Now the buyer is coming back and saying I got hosed. If you dont have proof that the buyer wasnt hosed then that as they say is that.
Anyone shipping via the service should be using what the service considers its legal obligation of proof of delivery, anything other than that they make pretty clear yes?
Its not PP's fault that your buyer is perhaps dishonest or didnt get what they paid for. For all we know the dispute is perfectly valid.
The fact that its been 16 months is interesting in that whats happened in that 16 months?
Thats the difference between having a mail order merchant account and a third party service. You can be in the loop, doesnt by any means that a determination will go in your favor one way or another but you do generally know whats going on.
In this particular case I certainly wouldnt fault PayPal, they are probably just as frustrated by it as you.
16 months is a long time.
Chargebacks can go back years. You buy a PC, after 2 years 2 months the monitor gives out and for whatever the reason you call up Sony lets say and they go sorry... It says Sony but its not Sony. Its a FRAUD monitor. Evil beastie!
Granted, its rare. The reasons we dont use third party payments are all the grey zones and the fact we at least want to be in the loop if things go afowl.
posted on June 13, 2001 11:05:20 PM new
Recently, PayPal received a complaint from a user regarding
merchandise not received or received not-as-described.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but this does not say anything about a chargeback, but indicates a buyers complaint to PayPal. Unless something has changed, if it were a chargeback via the issuing bank, the e-mail would specify that it was a chargeback.
posted on June 13, 2001 11:19:28 PM new
I was just charged back for a Billpoint transaction that happened 7 months ago, so 16 months does not seem at all improbable!
The part that really burns me is the $10 added "investigation fee". A number of other scammed sellers and myself provided enough documentation to substantiate that the buyer was dishonest. It didn't matter...we were charged back anyway. What "investigation"? BP wouldn't even look at the facts provided!
This almost makes me wonder if the buying public isn't going to "wise up" shortly, and realize they can get credit for everything they've purchased online for the last year or two. Just think of the potential here...dozens and dozens of chargebacks, and the on-line payment services get to charge us $10 extra for every one. The buyer makes out just fine, the auction gets it's percentage, the payment service gets $10 free. And sellers foot the whole bill. Whoopee!
Don't count on your delivery confirmation notices making any difference, by the way. Mine didn't!
Sorry if I sound terribly cynical, but frankly this no-time-limit thing has me very concerned!
posted on June 14, 2001 05:19:18 AM new
usps delivery confirmation only goes back 12 months. This means anyone from over a year ago can do this and you can do nothing to prove the buyer is in the wrong.
posted on June 14, 2001 05:27:40 AM new
Please keep up updated on this. If PP debits your account after all this time, something is seriously wrong. PP and the customers bank need to abide by Reg Z. If PP messes this one up, I am closing my account. This is not right.....
posted on June 14, 2001 05:52:32 AM new
Does anyone remember what Paypal's TOS was 16 months ago? On that particular day? I don't even think there was buyer protection then.
posted on June 14, 2001 06:11:11 AM new
Candibates1
did the buyer leave feedback on this tranasction ?
if so you could offer it as proof of goods received.
posted on June 14, 2001 06:15:24 AM new
Concerning the issue of chargebacks vs not getting their merchandise, I honestly dont know the difference. The reason I am calling this a chargeback is because that is what PayPal is calling it. This is the beginning of the email they sent me:
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 1:23 PM
Subject: PayPal: Chargeback Inquiry Case #******
They are calling it a chargeback, so I am to. And according to their site, the payment has already been reversed and debited out of my account.
posted on June 14, 2001 08:31:38 AM new
D-A-M-O-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N
Where are Y-O-U-U-U-U-U-U-U-U???????
Have you left the building?
Seems you are out of luck candibates1, you where found guilty before you even had a chance to prove yourself innocent. To even need to prove yourself innocent after 16 months is ludicrous. Thank god this was only a $8 item. You should post this on every message board available on the internet (starting with eBay's) to let it be known to as many as possible. I wouldn't waste time and energy on defending myself, but spend it all on publicizing this event instead.
On a persanal note, if you could find the name of the bank that authorised this, it would be appreciated. I need to upgrade my computer equipment every 16 months or so....
If you look at your credit card agreement one has 60 days from date of posting to dispute a charge. Now either the buyer and the CC have been having a dialogue all this time (hard to believe) or what has been going on?
It is inconceivable that a 16 month old transaction can be charged back. I guess we now must state in OUR TOS and Warranty policy that all complaints etc. must be made within a specific amount of time.
MUST NOTIFY WITHIN 30 days if item not received or if there is a problem.
Course the way PayPal works they would just ignore our TOS...
I'm looking for a new payment service. What a surprise. Anybody ever use E-GOLD??? It is domestic and international and THERE ARE NO CHARGEBACKS. Once you receive payment it is yours!!! There are a few listings on Ebay using E-GOLD but they seem to be primarily in the electronics area.
posted on June 14, 2001 10:25:21 AM new
Wow, I didnt realize that they arleady debited your account! That is crazy. So one of three things happened.
A) The customer notified their bank within the 60 days; notification was sent to PP and the paperwork got lost in the shuffle. So, they just find it now and not wanting to take a loss, debit the seller.
B) The customer notified their bank within 60 days; and their bank misplaced the paperwork and just charged back now hoping that PP would accept it. This way they wont have to take a loss. Which of course they shouldnt.
or
C) The customer just notified their bank and their bank figured lets try it and see if PP accepts it.
I want to hear what Damon has to say. If I was the seller, I would be screaming bloody murder. If PP doesnt reverse that chargeback they some some serious issues.
posted on June 14, 2001 10:33:33 AM new
That is a good question, pumpkin. Where is damon??
Last post he made he was defending paypal saying sellers were at risk of chargebacks no matter what the time and that blah about trackable delivery.
Only thing is, since it goes back only 12 months, even if you had online signature, you'd still be screwed since the online records would be gone. And, of course, paypal doesn't accept anything other than online as proof.
posted on June 14, 2001 10:43:32 AM new
Hi tiggressoflove,
I am here. I do have quite a few other places to post, so I have directed the issue for immediate attention.
Charge backs, in 99.9999999% of the cases, come around within 1-6 months. This is the oldest example I have seen of one coming through and I have contacted the charge back team for resolution. This is, without saying, highly unusual.
I do have to comment, again, that charge back reports do come from the credit card companies and that is why there is a time variance that we have no control over.
posted on June 14, 2001 10:44:45 AM new
You know, this is bugging me.
Candibates, is PP going to send you the customers paperwork that was sent to them? I would certainly hope so. This way you can see when the bidder actually contacted their bank..Even if it was a year ago, it is NOT your problem. Someone needs to take a loss here, and you are being the scapegoat.
Damon, I have never put you guys down. I like your service even though you keep doing wacky things. However, I really want to know why Candibates account was debited. It doesnt matter that it was only $8. What your company did was not right. I was a Chargeback Supervisor for years. Things may have changed a bit within the last couple of years, but not that much! Maybe an inexperienced rep received the paperwork, or it was an oversight. Who knows. But if this issue goes unanswered, I am closing my account.
If I remember correctly, Candibates called you guys. It should have been rectified then. No need for an investigation. It is too late for a chargeback!! That is the bottom line..
posted on June 14, 2001 10:52:53 AM new
Come On Damon!! That is a bunch of baloney and you know it. There is no way it takes a year from paperwork to get from point A to point B. It is sent to you within a week of the chargeback. I know that and so do your reps. Issue a credit to the seller and be done with it. This publicity you dont need over a lousy $8..
posted on June 14, 2001 10:55:44 AM new
Hi pumpkinhead,
The information I provided about charge backs, in general, is correct. I have admitted that this is unusual and I am having it checked on. That is the best I can do.
posted on June 14, 2001 11:12:01 AM new
It is my opinion that if this was done to me on a service I paid for I would expect them to eat it also.
I agree this should have never even made it bsck to the person. It comes in, look at the date and say forget it. Even if PayPal is stuck, they should hold their customer a litter higher instead of trying to get their $8.00 back.
This is costing them much more than the $8.00. The damage from just one person closing their account because of the 40 so odd posts here is worth a lot more than $8.00.
PayPal is supposed to be a business so think about that for awhile. By the way how much are you spending in your peoples time dealing with this?
I know that was a bad question caues it is probably nothing.
I have no idea as to why the charge back took so long to be placed (credit card company,internal processing time,etc). Due to the timeline, I requested that the item be eaten by us.
Again, this is highly unusual and it is why I addressed it.
posted on June 14, 2001 04:47:09 PM new
Maybe if the buyer was required to contact the seller in a certain amount of time (like 30 or 60 days after the shipment) before initiating a charge back and had to forward this e-mail to PayPal as proof of contact it would help eliminate some of these surprise charge backs and people would not just find out about the fact that a buyer has filed for a charge back by paypal's notification well after the fact. That way even if the process takes a long time the seller has proper warning of what is coming well before it is too late. That would also keep the buyers from deciding to initiate a charge back long after they receive the merchandise. Things need to be taken care of in a timely manner or the process will continue to be abused. If buyers realize they can get the merchandise and just wait a while to file a claim without ever telling the seller there are some that will do it. Not that bad on an $8 item, but will paypal eat the loss if it is an $800 item, I doubt it. They need to realize that they also have to offer sellers protection because for every crooked seller out there taking advantage of buyers, there is a crooked buyer taking advantage of sellers.
We would actually prefer that buyers/sellers work the issue out before contacting us. The terms of use also stipulate that buyers need to contact us before filing a charge back.
The Seller Protection Program will protect sellers if the rules are followed.
As an FYI, we are checking on why this charge back was issued. It may be an issue with the processing vendor (that provides us our charge back information) and we are checking to see if any other users were impacted.
Well, I guess this thing has been resolved. This is an email from Paypal that I received tonight:
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 11:23 AM
Subject: Notification of PayPal Pending Reversal
> Dear,
>
> We have completed our investigation regarding the
> the following transaction and have canceled the reversal.
>
> Transaction Date: Feb 1, 2000 12:00:47
> Transaction Amount: $8.80
> Buyer's Email: **************
>
> Thank you for your patience during this process and for helping
> to make PayPal the safest and most trusted online
> payment solution.
>
> Thank you,
>
> PayPal Account Review Department
>
> *********************************************************************
Thats it--no explanation or anything. The basic eBay type form letter that means absolutely nothing to me.
