posted on October 20, 2000 12:00:57 AM new
On Sep. 21, a guy from Belarus (let me call him AAAA)
want to buy some car audio from me and he paid me 2
$500 through PayPal on Sep. 21.
Since I didn't agree the shipping fee, I returned $1000 to
AAAA at the same day.
9/21/00 64098165TJ6410521 -$1,000.00
On Sep. 22, PayPal restricted my account since AAAA
use stolen Credit Card to pay me. After that, I sent all the
corrsponding between I and AAAA per PayPal's request.
Please note, since I returned all payment to AAAA, I got
nothing from that fraud payment and I also didn't ship
the car audio to him. In this case, Both I and PayPal should lost nothing.
On Oct. 4 and 5, I suddenly found that PayPal deducted
$500.00 and $345.68 from my account for the reason "Risk
Management Fraud Fund Recovery". As you can see, PayPal
should recover fraud fund from AAAA's account, not mine.
"We apologize for the error made in deducting $500.00 from your
account on 10/4/00 and $345.68 on 10/5/00. The funds have been
credited back to your account and your restriction has been
removed. Thank you for your patience and understanding."
Yes, my account's restriction was removed. But no funds "have been
credited back to" my account.
On Oct. 9, I received an email from PayPal:
"Thank you for your patience. Those amounts have been credited
back to your credit card, not to your PayPal balance. We
apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. "
My credit card registered on PayPal is a CitiBank Master Card.
Since CitiBank provide online service, so I check my Credit Card
account at least once a day. However, Until today (Oct. 20), I didn't
see any credit back to my credit card account.
I sent an email to PayPal on Oct. 16, but still didn't received the
reply. PayPal already hold my $845.68 more than 25 days.
Obviously, PayPal lie to me on their emails of Oct. 6 and Oct. 9.
And they refused to reply me to explain it.
During this period, I wrote at least 20 emails to Paypal, including
PayPalDamon, the fastest reply is 3 days later. Very bad Custom Service.
What I worried is after paypal publice their new poilcy, PayPal are
losing their market very quickly. Maybe they will die in very short
time. If that's true, I will lost my hard earning money forever.
You suggestion are welcome.
[ edited by gourmand on Oct 20, 2000 12:07 AM ]
posted on October 20, 2000 12:27:53 AM new
gourmand,
I tip my hat to your post, it is well worded, documented and understandable (rare). I can see how you'd be irked, I would too. It looks like you did all the right moves and you've been lost in the system. I hope Damon kicks some butt to expedite your case when he returns.
I wouldn't worry about PayPal going under before you get your refund. While PayPal might be a heckler's dream on the message board the financial news services are singing praises.
posted on October 20, 2000 06:06:04 AM new
When Paypal applies a credit to your credit card, it can take a long time for the credit to show up. In my case, I think it was about 2 weeks. It's really not their fault. The credit card companies are just slow to process the transaction. Why? Because you are paying interest while waiting for the credit.
P.S. Obviously Paypal screwed up, but come on -- $1,000 worth of audio equipment to Belarus?? There really is a reason why Paypal doesn't accept international payments, and if you knowingly help someone circumvent those restrictions, you are in for some serious trouble.
posted on October 20, 2000 06:36:15 AM newP.S. Obviously Paypal screwed up, but come on -- $1,000 worth of audio equipment to Belarus?? There really is a reason why Paypal doesn't accept international payments, and if you knowingly help someone circumvent those restrictions, you are in for some serious trouble.
Amalgamated - you say this as if he were at fault here, knowingly and willingly entering into this proposed sale. It didn't sound to me like this was the case. At this point with PayPal no one has any control over who deposits what into their account.
In any case, even if he HAD entertained the notion of doing this sale, he thought better of it early on and effectively canceled his part in it.
posted on October 20, 2000 08:23:41 AM new
"While PayPal might be a heckler's dream on the message board the financial news services are singing praises."
Not a lot of singing in Monday's Wall Street Journal piece.
It contained financial analyst's quotes about PayPal "struggling to come up with the business model" and its "need to create a strategy" that won't run off customers, yet make money as it heads toward its IPO.
posted on October 20, 2000 08:55:22 AM new
"When Paypal applies a credit to your credit card, it can take a long time for the credit to show up. In my case, I think it was about 2 weeks. It's really not their fault."
As I mentioned im my post, my CC ia a CitiBank master card. All refund will display on my account no later than 3 days. I don't believe that's CitiBank's fault. Since they said "Those amounts have been credited back to your credit card" on Oct. 9, I should see the credit back by Oct. 12.
Suppose that's CitiBank's fault, why PayPal refuse to reply my email to explain it?
posted on October 20, 2000 09:00:41 AM newBelarus?!? As in the Republic of Belarus? Eastern Central Europe Belarus?
Why were you using PP for an International transaction? Now, I am not a big fan of theirs any longer, but I really can't fault them on this one. a) it's international & they don't do international (yet), and b) the former Soviet states are known to be hotbeds of CC fraud these days.
posted on October 20, 2000 09:26:53 AM new
Pay pal's fault is: after they recover fund from that cheater's account, they still hold my money. And they lie to me.
posted on October 20, 2000 09:27:15 AM new
Bunnicula: Whatever he "thought" or "planned," the fact is that he returned the money. Once he did that, Paypal had no right to take anything from him. And it does not take two weeks to get credited, unless PP is holding that money for two weeks. With Payplace, Exchangepath, etc it takes 3 days.
What I might do in a situation like this, is charge the $800+ by sending a PP payment to another account "in the family" and then closing both accounts. Then charge back the transaction. It looks like PP is a firm believer of "possession is 9/10ths of the law."
Gourmand: Have you emailed [email protected] yet? If he can't help you, speak to lawyers, newspaper reporters, the Banking Commission, FBI, whatever. If there is a big enough noise, PP will finally get what is coming to them. Another tactic might be to tell the folks who paid you, whose money PP took, that unfortunately PP took their money so you cant ship to them and you advise them to charge back the transaction. There is someone who keeps posting at otwa, collecting names of people scammed by PP for a class action suit. http://www.ygoodman.com [email protected]
posted on October 23, 2000 10:07:03 AM new
>P.S. Obviously Paypal screwed up, but come on -- $1,000 worth of audio equipment to Belarus??<
>Why were you using PP for an International transaction?<
Maybe not everyone is as smart as you folks, but gourmand's problem certainly isn't being helped by these comments. I just don't understand this 'blame the victim' thinking. Sheesh. Nice guys.
posted on October 23, 2000 10:29:01 AM new
>P.S. Obviously Paypal screwed up, but come on -- $1,000 worth of audio equipment to Belarus??<
>Why were you using PP for an International transaction?<
He also said "Since I didn't agree the shipping fee, I returned $1000 to
AAAA at the same day."
Sounds to me like he didn't know the bidder was international until after the PayPal payments arrived, and he did the best he could with that situation.
posted on October 23, 2000 12:18:14 PM new
Nope - think about it - it's a slick trick on his part to pull some money out of a credit card.
He pays with a credit card (two here) using PayPal on an auction that's pretty pricey. If the seller returns the money - whoa - he's home free to use that money some other way - such as transfer it to other PayPal accounts.
PayPal get's the bad credit card payment - sticks the original seller with it - freezes his account.
Geez - don't ever return money like that - immediately contact PayPal and make them do it.
posted on October 24, 2000 12:20:23 PM new
Hi, paypaldamon, you are the first one from PayPal to reply my email after 10 days. An email was sent to you and hope you can solved my problems immediately.
posted on October 25, 2000 11:28:42 AM newAN OBSERVATION
In order for someone to SEND money, they have to have a PP account themselves.
How are international users able to OPEN a PP account in the first place?????
Probably by using a "public" email addy like Yahoo or Hotmail! Also, opening an account with PP is fast and easy and you can start sending payments immediately!
It is obvious from the continued post on the subject, PayPal has not yet come up with an effective way to stop "fraudulant" accounts from being opened in the first place. By the time an account is found to be fraudulant, it could have been used many, many times to SEND funds.
Keep in mind, as a receiver you are automatically "sent" the cash if the sender iniates the transaction. The email you get from PP does not even include a shipping address unless the sender has entered one in the space provided. I get payments that have no shipping instructions and I have to email the sender to ask for the mailing address. I assume the address I am given by the sender (through a SEPERATE email) is the one on record with PP.
To effectively stop fraud, PP needs establish a proceedure where all NEW accounts are verified (at least my street address if NOT bank account BEFORE they can be used to send funds the first time!
Yes, this might cause a slow down in the transaction, BUT at least the seller would know that the person who will be sending the money is indeed legit! It would certainly be better than discovering you account has been "frozen" because the sender was a fraud!
PayPal needs to establish a proceedure (like BidPay) where the receiver/seller is automatically sent the address registered on the account and instructed to only send the item to the registered address!!!!
PayPal could also NOT allow public email addy's such as from Yahoo and Hotmail to be used as the PRIMARY account address! This would prevent someone from opening several PP accounts in a matter of minutes and sending payments from stolen cards hoping to have the whole transaction a done deal BEFORE it is discovered the cards used were stolen. Look how many sellers have commented on the fact they ship immediately upon receipt of PP!!!!! That's one of the +'s of PP for both buyer and seller. IMMEDIATE payment and almost IMMEDIATE shipment.
Forgive the long post, but I have been mulling this over for a long time. It really seems to me it could be fixed pretty easy.
posted on October 25, 2000 12:35:53 PM new
sulyn1950: We asked for these months ago. Damon promised they were in the works. So far I have seen not one improvement or requesed change in PP but lots of new fees and headaches. Their programmers dont have the time to put in simple changes but have the time to put in fees and counters on how much CC payment you received. At this point I have to believe that this is deliberate. Why should PP verify accounts when all they have to do is take the money back from the nearest available victim? Wy should they give you an accept/reject button when they can charge you fees for getting the money and then charge it again if you refund? Why should they display the receiver's name and address when you make a payment, when this might reveal that you are sending to the wrong person and they would lose the double fees? Again, I have nothing against the fees per se, and believe they are fair if it led to improved services. But all it led to was more opportunity for PP to rip folks off. http://www.ygoodman.com [email protected]
posted on October 26, 2000 01:13:08 AM new
"P.S. Obviously Paypal screwed up, but come on -- $1,000 worth of audio equipment to Belarus??
Why were you using PP for an International transaction?"
This is the same sort of thinking that blames a woman for allowing herself to be forcibly raped!
A big contributor to the problems with Paypal is the fact that a seller can NOT refuse a payment. If one has an open account, and a payment comes in, it's deposited. Doesn't matter if the buyer is in the U.S. or in the Orion Nebula!
posted on October 26, 2000 05:07:18 AM new
sulyn -
"PayPal needs to establish a proceedure (like BidPay) where the receiver/seller is automatically sent the address registered on the account and instructed to only send the item to the registered address!!!!"
It needs to be "SHIP/DON'T SHIP" information, where the recipient AND the sender are kept in the dark about the actual billing address.
Think of this scenario with your idea: crook acquires CC# and just enough information to open the account. Sends a SMALL amount to an accomplice ... accomplice gets the CORRECT billing address. With that, you can do some REAL shopping online, or send money real fast to another account, do a transfer to a bank account and clean out the account. If you hit early in the CC cycle, you have a couple of weeks before the bills come in.
posted on October 26, 2000 07:41:11 AM new
It doesn't matter whether the seller sends the merchandise or not - when PayPal discovers that the payment was made from a stolen credit card, PayPal 'will' freeze his entire account.
There is nothing the seller can do about that to protect himself.
posted on October 26, 2000 01:43:57 PM new
Hi renright,
You are more than welcome to email me at [email protected]. Accounts can be restricted as well, but we do have the ability to do it to a transaction. The circumstances dictate the action.
posted on October 26, 2000 01:53:05 PM new
Email already sent. this will make 6 total emails I have sent to Paypal on this subject I hope this one will resolve the roadblock that is holding up my money.
posted on October 30, 2000 11:17:50 PM new
Another week past, still didn't hear anything from paypal. My hard earning money!!! They are supposed to go back to my account three weeks ago.
posted on November 9, 2000 11:01:56 AM new
Thank PayPal damon's help, I got my money back today. If without Damon's help, I don't know when my money will back. PayPal hold my money more than 50 days. And after they promise return it to me, they still hold it more than 30 days.
After I got my money, I closed my PayPal account immediately. I don't trust PayPal now. Their Custom service is almost 0. I sent more than 30 emails to them. They only replied 5 of them and all of them arrived 3-7 days later.
Thank again, Damon, AuctionWatch message board and you guy's help.
posted on November 29, 2000 07:41:53 PM new
Glad that this worked out finally for gourmand. The real solution to this is simple: Use the competition and hope that the competition is smart enough not to make the same mistakes that PP is making.
