posted on July 27, 2001 09:48:18 AM new
The posts below are from a thread on another message board, and make the following claims:
1. Seller had money taken out of their account by PayPal because of buyer's chargeback due to admitted buyer remorse.
2. PayPal is in possesion of the item in question after requesting that the buyer ship it to them.
3. Seller is unable to contact anyone in PayPal's chargeback department to discus the matter.
In the same thread, damon posts:
The chargeback team, so the buyer did not get the merchandise, asked for the item to be shipped to us (that way they don't get to keep the money and merchandise from the transaction).
Question: Is PayPal now accepting returns on behalf of sellers (and without their approval)?
Copy and paste from original posts:
In late May I sold a Designer Handbag for over $2500. The buyer promptly paid me via paypal. The next day I overnighted their item. 3 Days laters I had a very similar handbag that was ending (it was much smaller). Well the second handbag ended for under $1000. That evening I received an email from the buyer of the first ($2500) handbag. She was outraged that the second bag which was similar went for less. She Demanded that I accept the same price for the first bag that the second handbag went out for and that I refund her money promptly. She did not complain about the bag, it was new, Authentic as stated! Her complaint was that she paid too much! I was pretty upset by this and Told her NO. Afterall she agreed to pay the original amount, was happy, until she believed she could have paid less.
2 weeks ago I get an email from her stating that she disputed the charge with her credit card company and that she won! 1 week ago Paypal takes out my account over $2500 and puts it in pending until further investigation.
I swiftly call paypal explain the situation, the rep tells me I should be covered by their so called protection plan and the money will come back to me. After all I shipped to the verified address and have proof of shipping.
Yesterday I noticed that the PENDING has move to Completed. And Now the MONEY is out of my account. Then I get an email from paypal saying they have my Hangbag and if I would like it returned to me I need to email them my address!!!!! Well suffice it to say 20 calls and 2 emails later I have not talked to anyone from paypal that could help me.
Who has given Paypal the right to take into possession the Handbag! I did not Accept a Return on this item. Buyers Remorse is Not my Problem. So as it stands I am out of $2000 and out of a $8000 Handbag (which is what it cost for retail!). I am Being Forced to Accept a Return! This Bag has not been in my possession for 2 Months! So if you think as a seller you are protected with Paypal, You are not!
----- Original Message -----
From: "PayPal Customer Service" <[email protected]>
To: XXXXXXXXX
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 11:43 AM
Subject:
Dear Ms. XXXXX
In accordance with PayPal's Seller Protection Policy, the following
transaction involving returned merchandise has been reversed:
The transaction was reversed because our seller protection policy does not
cover sellers from receiving chargebacks against anything other than
fraudulent funds or false claims of non-receipt of merchandise. The buyer
has returned the merchandise to us. If you would like the merchandise back
please reply directly to this email with the address we should send the
merchandise to.
Please note that this withholding is in accordance with our Terms of Use,
Section IV, Paragraph 3.
In the future, you can protect yourself against fraudulent buyers by
following the conditions of our Seller Protection Policy. For full
details, please visit our Terms of Service at:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/terms-outside
Sincerely,
Erin
PayPal Chargeback Division
For all of those concerned. Here again is my original email from paypal. It clearly states they have the item in question.
Secondly I have called paypal myself several times and have Never been able to speak with anyone from the Chargeback department. Sure I can talk all I want to the person who answers the phone but they can not help. They wont put a supervisor on the phone and for some reason they can never get the Chargeback department to answer my call or even call me back in a timely matter. I am telling you everything that was told to me.
posted on July 27, 2001 11:31:05 AM new
Hi mrpotatohead,
I am trying to find out more information on this, but some thoughts:
1. The item was returned to us by the sender. Our address would be more readily available than the seller's address.
2. The chargeback team, apparently, is offering to get the merchandise back to the seller (so they are not out money and product).
3. I have left my contact information for the seller, as I can direct it directly to the chargeback team for further guidance. I am not completely aware of how these cases are handled/resolved.
posted on July 27, 2001 11:38:29 AM new
Hi mrpotatohead,
I don't know enough about how these cases are handled. I am going to assume, without knowing all of the details at this time, that the merchandise is returned to the seller if no liability is present for the chargeback. I am trying to see what is happening here and I am trying to get additional clarification.
posted on July 27, 2001 11:49:36 AM new
Actually, my last question was not about this particular incident- it was about PayPal's TOS.
Does PayPal's TOS state that PayPal reserves the right to request that a buyer return an item they are charging back to PayPal instead of the seller?
In the event the answer is "Yes", will PayPal accept responsibility for that item if the seller determines that the item PayPal returns to them is not the item that was originally shipped?
posted on July 27, 2001 11:51:02 AM new
Hi mrpotatohead,
No. Buyers send merchandise to us on a regular basis that they don't want. I have explained that the merchandise, providing that there is no liability from the seller for a chargeback, would be returned to the seller.
posted on July 27, 2001 12:14:45 PM newI have explained that the merchandise, providing that there is no liability from the seller for a chargeback, would be returned to the seller.
Since (as you indicated) PayPal is currently involving themselves some buyer/seller transactions, sSuppose that the merchandise you return to the seller is not the same merchandise he sent to the buyer (you know- the buyer is trying to pull off a switch)... what responsibility will PayPal assume for acting as an intermediary and what actions will PayPal take to attempt to rectify the situation?
And if I were overly suspicious, I might ask how PayPal would go about proving that someone from PayPal didn't make the switch?
posted on July 27, 2001 01:03:15 PM newI might ask how PayPal would go about proving that someone from PayPal didn't make the switch?
That's not what I would ask. If paypal was in possession of the item, the money should still be in the possession of the seller. I would ask that paypal send the item (with verifable online tracking and god help them if the stub doesn't get scanned) back to me ASAP. I would also check the postmark, and find out how long paypal was in possession of the item. If the took the money back, and retained possession of the item for a unreasonable length of time, They would own it, and should give the money back to the seller.
No Return, No Refund.
Keeping a product, but canceling the payment is stealing, it doesn't matter how big the company doing it is.
Who Need's a stink'n Sig. File?
posted on July 27, 2001 02:39:21 PM new
Well, it looks like some of the posters here who have insisted that PayPal never gets involved in transactions resulting in disputes over "quality of goods" can pull up a chair and help themselves to a heaping plate of crow.
edited to add...
Here is an update posted by the seller involved in this situation:
XXXXXXXXXXXX (view author's auctions)
12:39pm July 27, 2001 (#139 of 140)
???
UPDATE EVERYONE!!
Its now 2:43 Pm my time. I called paypal first thing this morning at 8:30 am. Talked to a Rep who tried to patch me over to Chargeback, Of course No one was there or they wouldnt answer my call.
???I at that point Demanded to speak with a Supervisor. Very Reluctantly the operator connected to me to Supervisor. Whom I feel was very cold to me. Now not even the Supervisor could tell me anything and he too could not get me in touch with Chargeback.
???His promise to have Chargeback call me as soon as they get in.
???Well I guess Chargeback obvisiouly has a very laxed schedule as they have NOT called me back Yet! Might I say 6 hours later. Im Calling them AGAIN now.
???I have a feeling I am being put off.
Why can't this customer find somebody in PayPal's "customer service" department to help?
Inquiring minds want to know.
[ edited by mrpotatoheadd on Jul 27, 2001 02:46 PM ]
posted on July 27, 2001 03:00:45 PM new
From what I've read so far, it's also about PayPal requesting a return on behalf of a customer without the customer's approval and the inability of that customer to find anybody in PayPal's customer service department who can provide information on the situation.
Nobody has posted that they think there is any problem with the concept that a buyer can request a chargeback through their credit card over a "quality of merchandise" issue. The questions have been regarding PayPal's part in actively requesting a return of the item to PayPal themselves, instead of to the rightful owner.
You have taken money away from the seller, you have the seller's item, and the seller cannot find anybody at PayPal who is willing to assist in the situation.
posted on July 27, 2001 03:44:27 PM new
Damon,
You have mentioned several times "the merchandise is returned to the seller if no liability is present for the charge back."
What? So what your really saying is Paypal holds the item if there is a negative balance due to the charge back?
As someone who does use Paypal as a seller and buyer I would like to know if Paypal provides the actual request/inquiry from the Bank/Card issuer on behalf of their client? So your members know this is a legitimate issue?
I have a regular merchant account. When a charge back is initiated I am given accurate detailed information. Even though I have only had two attempts. Both ended up being dismissed and a charge back never occurred. What steps does Paypal actually take to prevent and help their customers?
Also why would Paypal take back merchandise? If a seller sends an item to a buyer then they should have that sellers address since a return address is normally on every package.
posted on July 27, 2001 03:55:48 PM newI would like to know if Paypal provides the actual request/inquiry from the Bank/Card issuer on behalf of their client? So your members know this is a legitimate issue?
Sure, if you get a subpoena...
posted by paypaldamon:
We can't release specifics on another account without a subpoena.
posted on July 27, 2001 04:15:52 PM new
Since questions regarding PayPal's policies are frequently answered with copy-and-pastes from their TOS, I thought this little nugget from PayPal's current TOS might be worth a comment:
PayPal DOES NOT act as the agent of either party in any transaction or resulting dispute, though PayPal does control the outcome of disputes initiated through the Service's dispute resolution process.
What part of "DOES NOT act as the agent of either party in any transaction" does requesting that the buyer send the merchandise to PayPal instead of to the rightful owner fall under?
posted on July 27, 2001 08:46:19 PM new
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but if I understand this situation right:
1. Paypal has already recovered the funds from the seller.
2. Paypal is in possession of the merchandise in question, and is saying "that the merchandise is returned to the seller if no liability is present for the chargeback."
How much "Liability" could the seller still have if he has had 100% of the money taken back?
At this point:
1. The Buyer has his money back.
2. The Seller has neither the money or the merchandise.
3. Paypal has a Designer Handbag that brought $2500 at auction.
I think there is some liability here, but not against the seller (or the buyer for that matter) Neither the buyer OR the seller has possession of something they didn't pay for. Paypal does.
What am I missing?
Who Need's a stink'n Sig. File?
posted on July 30, 2001 01:43:20 PM newSince questions regarding PayPal's policies are frequently answered with copy-and-pastes from their TOS, I thought this little nugget from PayPal's current TOS might be worth a comment:
PayPal DOES NOT act as the agent of either party in any transaction or resulting dispute, though PayPal does control the outcome of disputes initiated through the Service's dispute resolution process.
What part of "DOES NOT act as the agent of either party in any transaction" does requesting that the buyer send the merchandise to PayPal instead of to the rightful owner fall under?
Remember now, PayPal TOU is only to be regurgitated at us when it is in the best interests of PayPal to do so. At any time, with or without prior notification, PayPal retains the right to deviate from this TOU for any reason at all.
In the event PayPal invokes this right PayPal owes no user or external entity any type of explantation whatsoever.
At least this is what I can gather, since PayPal operates under a cloak of secrecy even denser then the CIA.
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jul 30, 2001 01:44 PM ]
posted on July 30, 2001 01:58:12 PM new
Still no update from PayPal on this issue?
I would think the outcome and handling of this situation would be of major importance to any seller who accepts payment through PayPal.
I would also think it would be important to PayPal to let their customers know exactly where they stand when using their services.
Apparently though, PayPal must feel differently, as it appears they are using the "ignore them and maybe they'll just go away" approach to customer service.
posted on July 30, 2001 02:06:29 PM new
I think PayPal would give a legitamate answer if they could. I'd look for them to come back soon with an 'all your questions have been answered' spin, followed by a lock of this thread.
posted on July 30, 2001 02:58:11 PM new
loggia - I suggest you go find the message thread on Ebay's T&S forum and read the whole story there.
its almost 400 posts long, but its got the seller providing the info. Paypal contacted the seller confirming the address to return the purse to. Apparently they were able to verify it was the same purse from the serial # but nothing about quality of the purse.
Its on its way back to the seller now..
I'd definitely settle down for a long read and check it out there... Very important to get all the details when judging.
Needless to say, I'm not pleased about these circumstances either...
posted on July 30, 2001 04:05:45 PM new
It's pretty obvious that PayPal, being 2 1/2 years old, simply does not have the experience to handle the complexity of the many laws and regulations, 8 million users, etc.
Damon periodically boasts of the number of customers, but in a sense this has been, by PayPal's own admission, a great difficulty for them.
This recent fiasco only highlights they are making it up as they go along. That they invited the buyer to send the merchandise to them is - well, it's insane. It's a complete contradiction of their often lamented TOS.
The difficulty the seller had contacting the chargeback department, even as the issue very publically played out, is astonishing.
The public posts by PayPal stating they may have misinformed customers... astonishing.
How they deemed to withdraw the money from the seller's account when they had possession of the item... you guessed it... astonishing! If I were the seller, I would have thought twice about accepting that bag from PayPal. It may be that PayPal should be "left holding the bag" on this and the seller should get their money back. Apparently PayPal told the seller about the credit card rules regarding return policies - but do those apply to the seller... or the merchant of record (PayPal)?
I don't have all the answers either, but it seems like PayPal violated their TOS. Why should the seller be accomodating when we have all seen PayPal be quite rigid?
posted on August 13, 2001 10:27:16 PM new
wOw! This one really is incredible to believe so it must be true!
Paypal is now accepting merchandise returns from Buyers AFTER PP has already successfully reversed the transaction amount back out of the Seller's account!??!
What right does PP have to the merchandise?
What liability could PP possibly be exposed too IF in fact they already paid the Buyer back from the Seller's funds?
What is going on PPDamon? Is PP collecting inventory for a future biz on eBay like the USPS is doing by selling someone else's property they managed to "collect"?
The Seller of the handbag is the rightful owner-- The Buyer has been repaid by the Seller -- PP is out nothing........but GAINS a $2500 designer handbag!?!?
yep, yep yep....I do believe PP is looking into the future of becoming a "PowerSeller" of other ppl's goods. Nice to know the USPS has been such a positive influence on how to provide incompetent service, convert goods belonging to others as their own and become rich in the process.
posted on August 14, 2001 06:51:58 AM new
mitzee: Please get a grip! Paypal is going to send the bag back to the seller. This doesn't mean that they did the right thing, but they are not out to steal the merchandise.
The real problem here is that thanks to this new policy, buyers can now get free upgrades to anything they own. Buy a new one, return the old one to Paypal and do a charge back. Seller protection doesnt apply, even if seller has proof of shipping to the confirmed address.
posted on August 14, 2001 07:19:41 AM new
yisgood,
Get a grip? lol
Most of my post was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, yisgood. I realize that the translation of satire/cynicism is difficult to read in typed format. It also would help IF i was good at such expressions
However, I am still amazed at PP for accepting returned goods from Buyers. #1, PP has no clue whatsoever if in fact that is the same item the Seller sent to the Buyer originally. PP has no clue if the item has been/sustained damage since it left the Seller's possession.
In my opinion, PP is overstepping its boundaries and is not at all acting in anyone's "protective interest" - not the Buyer's nor the Sellers.
Assuming PP had reversed the charge and removed the money the Seller rec'd for the item from his/her account, then just what would be PP's interest in getting any merchandise returned? PP is out nothing. Only the Seller is out. WHY didn't PP mandate that the Buyer return the item directly to the Seller (of course, using the mandated Delivery Confirmation for online tracking too) and once received & inspects the item for authenticity and condition, the Seller notifies PP to go ahead and release the funds of that transaction (which have been restricted/on hold)? Seems a whole lot less complicated than PP acting as an intermidiary.
Is PP assuming all the risk that the item will be in safekeeping/handling during its stay at PP? If it gets damaged while in PP's possession, who is liable for that? If it gets lost/stolen/misplaced.....is PP prepared to handle those claims?
What happens when the Seller no longer has the funds available in PP account to reimburse the Buyer for the purchase. Does PP get to keep the returned merchandise?
Seems to me PP has better things to do to fill empty space than using it for storage of returned goods. Hmmm, a few extra warm bodies in Customer Service might be a good start!
Oooooh, yisgood, I am gripping and gripping...can't you see my white knuckles!?!?
posted on August 14, 2001 07:26:45 AM new
I don't want to make it appear I am supporting ANY side in this situation, but I do want to say the following:
Some CC companies (maybe all of them) require merchandise to be returned to the seller for a chargeback to be processed.
This buyer tried to do that and the seller refused acceptance of the purse back.
Buyer had to send the purse SOMEWHERE to satisfy her CC company, so it went to Paypal, who last I heard is/has sent it back to the seller...
Could be the seller would be out the $ AND the purse... hopefully the purse is returned in the same condition it was sent in and it can be relisted and sold again.. but I'd be a lot more upset to be out the $2500 AND the purse...
