posted on November 5, 2001 08:42:39 AM new
On the evening of 11/1/01, I logged on to Paypal to make a simple $28 payment on an auction. After going through the normal screens and entering the typical information (auction totals / website / ID, etc) I was taken back to my Overview screen where my $28 transaction appeared, and right below it, appeared 3 other transactions of over $6000.00 each, all sending payment to my auction’s seller:
Look, please, at the times. I’m not at all sure it’s even possible to go through all the PayPal screens and complete payments in 46 seconds, as PayPal’s own records show in these cases. Considering that I did not complete my first transaction with this seller until 16:43, and the 6K charges appear timed before that (presumably while I was in the process of entering the actual transaction), I strongly believe this has got to be a computer error.
After exhausting efforts to solve the problem myself, I wrote an email to customer service (standard response about Paypal being a client-driven system) AND got the customer service phone number from a friend (I couldn’t find it on the website).
I spoke with Nicki in Customer Service who worked with me on the line for about 2 hours - calling different supervisors and departments. If what she told me was true, by my count she spoke with 4 other supervisors and 3 different departments (including finance and programming) and no one could cancel the transactions. I was told I had to call my bank the following morning (11/2/01) and issue a stop payment on the E-Check transaction, which I was more concerned about than the credit card errors. This would incur fees from my bank and would cause disruption of my Paypal service, but it was the only option open to me. When I found that unacceptable, I was assured a supervisor would help me during the daytime as there wasn't anyone who could help me further on the evening shift. Nicki, btw, was the first, last and ONLY helpful person I spoke with at Paypal and it was clear she was entirely powerless to help me.
By the time I woke up the next morning, the E-Check transaction had already hit my bank account, incurring an NSF fee. My bank was very understanding and assured me that all they needed was a letter from Paypal and they could reverse the fees and make non-derogatory notations on my account so that it didn't look like I was trying to bounce $6000+ checks all over town.
I called Paypal again and spoke with Peg. Peg was sympathetic, but clueless, and said that she would transfer me to finance where they could at least stop the $6000 payment from being re-submitted to my bank. I was transferred to Claire in finance. Claire explained that there was nothing she could do, that the charge would be re-submitted to my bank. She also informed me that Paypal is a "paperless office" and that they couldn't supply me with a letter for my bank. When I insisted that was unacceptable, she maintained a position that nothing else could be done. She refused to transfer me to a supervisor and refused to provide me with a letter to give my bank.
I called my bank back and luckily an understanding VP was patient enough to call back Paypal on the phone with me in a three-way conversation. We spoke with Tracy in finance (who may have been the most unaccommodating individual in the entire process, but it is hard to conclude that at this point.) With my bank rep on the phone, Tracy was very defensive, bordering rude. She insisted that Paypal is a "client driven" system and therefore the error HAD to be my fault and that there was no way the Paypal system could be in error.
Both my bank rep and myself were calm, and said okay, fine, regardless of if you want to take responsibility for the error or not, it is OBVIOUSLY an error and what we'd like is an explanation of how it happened and why there are no protocols in place to reverse and/or cancel errors of this nature. Tracy couldn't transfer us to a supervisor (because "they don't take calls" AND she could not promise me that a supervisor would even call me back or email me.
To date, no one from Paypal has had the courtesy of even addressing me or returning one of my phone calls.
I'm not even going to get into the credit card side of things.
I am familiar with customer service in many industries, but I am intimate with customer service protocols in the finance industry. I understand that an initial contact rep may not have the means or authority to resolve a complex issue, however, that is why a REPUTABLE company maintains a multi-tiered customer service division where matters like this can be addressed and resolved. It would appear that Paypal does not maintain any such system and lives in complete denial of the reality that this type of hierarchy is pretty much MANDATORY for a reputable company dealing with the personal finance of individuals.
What I would like to know is the following:
1. When (if ever) can I expect to hear from someone at Paypal explaining to me how this happened and how I can be certain it will not happen again? If Paypal is going to maintain it is my error, then I need to at least be told what I did so that it does not happen again.
2. Why there are no protocols in place for canceling these types of transactions when they are such obvious errors - and why Paypal doesn't find them necessary? I just find it unfathomable that I'm going to have ANOTHER NSF transaction on my account in 3 days when I've already made all this effort to solve this problem.
3. How I can have any faith that this will not happen the next time I go to make another $28 auction payment.
I look forward to any type of response and thank you for your kind attention.
posted on November 5, 2001 10:48:03 AM new
Hi Piej,
I am sorry for the issues you are having. Can you please send me your account email address to [email protected]? It is hard for me to translate the comments here, but I can review the account records/notes on the account to advise to get this looked at.
posted on November 8, 2001 06:54:27 AM new
Credit Card #1 - 16:31:59 - $6,367.31
Credit Card #2 - 16:32:59 - $6,367.31
This seems like programming error to me,there are bugs in paypal software.
sad but true,paypal staff is like the cashier at 99 cents store,they dont know much and they dont have much authority and they dont get paid that well to realise how serious these types of errors cost them,they could all be out of a job if this type of bug spreads,soon we will have $6,367,310.00 taken out of our accounts
After a thorough investigation, PayPal has found that the actions that occurred in your PayPal account were due to user error, rather than any error on PayPal’s part as you have suggested.
The item that you purchased fromxxxxx [email protected], was item #12887xxxx on eBay. You won this auction with an amount of $21.99 and the item description states that the shipping amount for the item is $6.95 for a total of $28.94.
The three payments that you claim were unauthorized were all in the amount of $6,416.99. If you subtract the cost of the item ($21.99) from this amount you are left with $6395.00, which is very similar to the $6.95 shipping cost of the item.
Based on the location of the numbers 6 and 3 on the number pad of a computer keyboard, it is apparent that you inadvertently entered the shipping cost as $6,395.00 rather than $6.95.
A thorough investigation of your account records has found no technical errors or any evidence of unauthorized access to your account that would have caused the transactions that you claim to have not initiated. Based on these findings and the information presented above, PayPal cannot be responsible for the actions that occurred in your PayPal account or any negative consequences such as fees incurred with your bank as a result of these actions.
If you still claim the transactions as unauthorized, please fill out the affidavit attached to this email, notarize it, and return it to PayPal. PayPal’s investigations and legal departments will then examine the issue further. Please bear in mind that such affidavits are considered legal and binding documents and are treated as such.
posted on November 14, 2001 09:48:32 PM new
Paypal Damon, you can not possibly expect us to believe that story you just gave us. The only way for that to happen for something like this to happen:
1. Buyer makes small payment, and submits it.
WHILE HE IS IN THE MIDDLE OF DOING THAT, BEFORE THAT TRANSACTION IS COMPLETED:
2. Buyer accidentally makes payment again, this time misenters shipping.
3. Buyer misses confirmation showing total amount in excess of 6000, and presses submit anyway.
4. Buyer misses the recent transactions screen, showing the mistaken charge of over 6000, and accidentally makes a payment again, with the same amount for product and same mistaken amount for shipping, misses the confirmation, and presses submit.
5. Buyer misses the recent transactions screen, showing both the mistaken charges of over 6000, and accidentally makes a FOURTH payment, with the same amount for product and same mistaken amount for shipping, misses the confirmation, and presses submit.
6. Each of the 6000+ dollar payments must be made in less than 60 seconds, 10 MINUTES BEFORE the correct amount goes through.
Unless there is something totally different than what is posted in these post in this thread that has not been mentioned, you are not insulting the intelligence of the buyer, you are just saying he has none.
posted on November 14, 2001 09:55:03 PM new
By the way, you is not referring to PayPal Damon personally, it is referring to the scam *cough cough* company in general.
posted on November 15, 2001 08:36:38 AM new
Re: scam in general
There is a general difference between an error and a scam. There are errors on my credit card bills every month. These errors are usually caused by the merchant or myself mixing up transactions. I call the cc company and it gets fixed (eventually).
PayPal provides a very useful service at a moderate price. Errors occur much less frequently than on my traditional credit card, yet some posters classify this as a "scam".
I think the average user should be expected to make errors occasionally, and PayPal should be expected to fix them accordingly. But this certainly is no scam, just business as usual.
posted on November 16, 2001 10:01:16 AM new
Will the woman who was mistakenly charged $6000 please call me right away.. I would like to do a TV interview with her for a story TechTV is doing about Paypal.
My phone number is (415)355-4085.
Thanks!
posted on November 16, 2001 10:51:50 AM new
First of all, if anyone has had a similar situation happen to them, please email me at [email protected] ASAP.
I'm sorry I haven't checked back here until today. I got the same letter Damon posted above from a Paypal "resolution specialist."
Damon, I appreciate everything you did in attempting to help me resolve the situation. I appreciate that you are not responsible for Paypal's policies or practices, but I am pretty much thoroughly disgusted.
My response to that letter is below. The bank VP who worked with me advised me NOT to fill out the Paypal affidavit as that would give them further access to my personal finances which they seem unqualified to handle. I edited one or two things out of my response like personal details.
I consider the matter resolved in that my bank has cleaned up Paypal's mess. I don't trust Paypal and will use it to receive monies for my business only, until I find other means to fit my needs.
My final reply and final correspondence on the matter:
X,
It is clear to me from your letter that "Resolutions Analyst" as defined by Paypal must translate roughly to "Resolving to Not Take Any Sort of Responsibility."
I have been disgusted by the customer service Paypal does not provide. For a company which centers itself upon the personal finances of millions of customers, it's clear you have not maintained even the most basic levels of customer service that are standard in the finance industry.
I have more than one concern about your "magic bullet" theory of my transactions as they transpired. Among other assumptions, your theory infers that I entered the incorrect amount for shipping not just once, but 3 times. Also, in order for me to do this 3 times, I'm assuming there had to be warnings, notices, SOMETHING that appeared on my screen. I saw nothing of that manner. For the record, I am not blind, nor am I a complete imbecile. I could agree to disagree about a typo once. But on three separate transactions - two that were only SECONDS apart, this is impossible for me to swallow.
When I first noticed the error, I was perfectly willing to accept full, if not partial responsibility for the error. I just couldn't understand HOW it happened. I have been as patient as I can be. I have been polite, and even when my temper was strained, I have remained civil. However, I've now been called the equivalent of a moron and/or a liar too many times.
Your service is disreputable as far as I am concerned. No, I will not be wasting my time with an affidavit so that your legal department can waste THEIR TIME figuring out how to resolve this error. Luckily, the damage was minor. The credit card had not been updated since its expiration and therefore incurred no charges. A Vice President of my bank was as disgusted with your customer service as I was and she has resolved everything on my bank's side, INCLUDING the SECOND NSF fee which I will incur in a day or so when your automatic system resubmits the erroneous charges to my bank.
I did not start out this ordeal to force Paypal to take responsibility for the error. I merely wanted HELP to get the error resolved. In the beginning, I wasn't centered on fault, but on RESOLUTION, something, according to your title, you should be somewhat familiar with. What I got was a complete run-around, the passing of the buck, and stonewalling.
What I've come to believe is that Paypal doesn't really concern itself with resolving anything. Your legal position is that everything in your system is 100% user-driven and therefore everything that happens is the fault of the user, so your responsibility is negligible.
However, you do not give members the POWER to correct user-driven errors, and, since you do not accept responsibility for anything, EVERY error must be a user error. Even if this was somehow my fault (and I am still open to the possibility that it could be my fault, I simply have not been provided with an explanation which fits the facts as I understand them and the events as I experienced them) you have an obligation to provide protocols of rectification for verifiable errors.
You do not give members the power to cancel their transactions and correct their errors because, I'm willing to bet, member errors generate money for your company.
I find that unacceptable.
I will be completing the few auctions I have left to complete through your service, then I will be closing my account and taking my business elsewhere. I know Paypal will not miss my little drop in the bucket, but I will do everything I can to educate others about the shameful lack of customer care you maintain.
An error is just that, an error. It does not have to escalate into any sort of unpleasant experience or conflict. It merely has to be resolved. In this case, I caught this error within minutes of its occurrence. It is ludicrous that your company does not have a protocol in place to cancel an error, be it user-driven or not.
You are betting that the money you make on the errors will justify the loss of business that will result from people like me who are dissatisfied with your system.
Having legal deniability doesn't make you immune to responsibility.
I thank you for your time, but urge you not to waste anymore of it. Nothing short of a full apology from your company about this ridiculous fiasco of a simple error interests me from this point on.
I never asked anyone to take responsibility for the error. Although I doubted (and STILL doubt) that I am behind the error, I remain open to the possibility. What I did ask for was HELP in the resolution. That is what Customer Service and Resolution Analysis are all about. But, apparently, Paypal has its own definitions of those traditional roles.
posted on November 16, 2001 11:24:12 AM new
Hi Piej,
You will need to follow the information presented by the representative to assist in this matter. We have corresponding log in requests and transaction times to support the fact that it is not a system error. I am sorry that I can't help more, but all of the investigation does indicate a user error (all fields are customer-driven).
Please follow the instructions provided to dispute the transaction(s).
AND she could not promise me that a supervisor would even call me back or email me.