posted on December 28, 2001 01:58:35 PM new
Dear Damon--
This is a diary of correspondence sent to Paypal by me since February, 2001.
Monday, February 12, 2001-- I processed a transaction through PayPal to pay for an eBay auction item in the total amount of $308.95. I wanted to use a different credit card other than the “primary” credit card already listed on my account. I went to the Add Credit Card screen and entered the new credit card information along with the new billing/shipping address. As I was ready to process the transaction, a verification of all the information that was about to be submitted came up on the screen. I carefully looked over the screen to make sure that everything was correct, which included checking that the new credit card and new billing/shipping address that had been added were selected, and then proceeded to send the payment, which completed the transaction. I received a confirmation email as usual from PayPal letting me know that this transaction had been processed. It also listed the shipping address of the new credit card, which is not the same as my “primary” card.
Sunday, February 18th-- While going through my bills and banking information I discovered, much to my horror, that indeed the new credit card that I had added on to my account was not charged. Instead my “primary” card, which is a Visa Check card (the money comes directly out of my checking account), was charged for the $308.95. Not only had the wrong card been charged, but because the money comes directly out of my checking account, I was now being charged $145.00 in overdraft charges because my account was overdrawn from this transaction.
Monday, February 19th-- I contacted the seller of the auction to let them know that there was a problem and explained what had happened. The seller was very pleasant and more than willing to help, and gave me PayPal’s phone number and said that I would have to contact PayPal first for further instructions on what to do. I tried to contact PayPal but was informed through a voice message system that the customer service department was closed due to the President’s Day holiday.
Tuesday, February 20th-- I called the PayPal customer service department first thing in the morning in hopes of getting the problem resolved as soon as possible. I explained the problem to the representative who took my information and said that she would submit the information to the Finance Dept. who would investigate the problem and email me back.
Wednesday, February 21st-- I called the PayPal customer service department again. The representative said that the information that I gave the day before had been relayed to the Finance Dept., they deal with the situations in the order that they are received, and I would have to wait until they emailed me a response.
Thursday, February 22nd-- I called the PayPal customer service department again. I told the representative that I had been charged another $58.00 in overdraft charges from this problem and that no one had contacted me yet. The representative stated that they would add this information to the original message and submit it to the Finance Dept., but that I would still have to wait for someone to email me back.
Friday, February 23rd-- I called the PayPal customer service department yet again. At this point, I am extremely frustrated when telling the representative that I have another $145.00 overdraft charge to report. The representative again takes my information, again says that it will be relayed to the Finance Dept., and again says that I will have to wait for an email. By 4:00 p.m., I still had not received a response from PayPal. Very, very irritated, I called the customer service department and finally came in touch with Marcus at ext. 4004. Marcus was the FIRST person, after five phone calls to PayPal, who tried to help me more than saying wait for an email. He went on to tell me that regardless if you have selected another credit card to process, the system will automatically charge the “primary”. I was appalled at this news, because at NO point when adding the new credit card was that information given on the screen, nor at the verification screen before the transaction was completed. Marcus was also the FIRST person to tell me that I should go ahead and have the seller reverse the original transaction to credit my account and then re-submit the transaction, after changing the new credit card to the primary. He then said that he would follow up with an email in reference to the overdraft charges on PayPal’s end. I called the seller and told them of Marcus’ instructions on how to handle the situation. I went ahead with the new transaction. I then called Marcus back to verify that the correct credit card had been processed with the new transaction. He said that it went through correctly. I later received an email from him confirming the instructions that he had given me in clearing up the $308.95 part of the problem, but that PayPal would be following up with me in regards to the overdraft charges, and again no time frame could be provided as to when that would happen.
Saturday, February 24th-- I checked my banking information and learned that another overdraft charge of $87.00 had been added to my account.
Monday, February 26th -- I still have not heard from PayPal. At this point, I would never recommend anyone to use PayPal, because if anybody were ever to have a problem occur such as this, I would not wish them to go through as much hassle as I have been through in trying to resolve the situation. I did believe at one time that PayPal has a good service that offers many people convenience and security while transacting money to each other. However, when it comes to customer service issues and problems, such as the one that I have incurred while using your service, PayPal has provided the worst service that I have ever encountered and still has not provided a satisfactory resolution to my ongoing problem. I guess the “Finance Dept.” at PayPal does not care that I now have $435.00 in overdraft charges, that my current account balance is a -$444.48, and if anything else tries to clear my account today, that more overdraft charges are going to be added. I am expecting PayPal to reimburse these overdraft charges that never would have been charged to me if the original transaction had went through as it was selected and supposed to have on the PayPal verification screen. And if action had been taken on PayPal’s behalf when the first phone call was made in reference to this problem, the amount of fees that I have now incurred on my account would not have been this high. Also, my bank has charged me a $3.00 Account Transaction History Fee for printing out my account’s activity to send to you and these charges will also be included in the total amount due from PayPal to me. Reimbursement for all overdraft and bank charges, along with the $308.95 that is being credited by the seller, will bring my account back to where it should be prior to these transactions, and I will consider the matter resolved.
Tuesday February 27th-- I called the PayPal customer service department again. This time I requested to speak directly with a manager or supervisor. My call was then transferred to Alisha and I explained the ongoing problem that I have been trying to solve. She informed me “that because it was a user-initiated error that PayPal would not be refunding these overdraft charges to me.” I was very angered when a Customer Service supervisor could say this to me, especially since all other representatives that I had spoken to said that the Finance Dept. would have to handle the matter and I would receive a response from them.
My first argument against PayPal is that according to the terms listed on PayPal’s website, any call made with a dispute would receive a response or notice that further investigation is necessary within ten (10) business days of reporting the incident to PayPal. My first contact to PayPal about this problem was on Monday, February 12th. According to the terms of PayPal, I should have received a response on or before Monday, March 5th. But as expected no response was or has been received by any department or personnel at PayPal despite seven phone calls and a fax regarding this matter.
My second argument against PayPal is that the website does not say anywhere on it (including terms of use or help sections) that “you have to make the credit card you want to charge the primary card, it does not matter if you select a different card other than the primary, it will automatically charge the primary card” (see attached copies of web pages during the transaction process). If the users on the website don’t know that this has to happen, how is PayPal to expect the users to initiate correct transactions? I would have gladly changed the card that I wanted to use to the primary card and avoided as much hassle as I have been through with this situation, but the simple fact remains that this information was never given to me on PayPal’s website during the transaction. To me a primary card is the card that I use the most and would like to automatically display first for all transactions. Adding additional credit cards and having a drop down box enables me the option to select and use a different card. I can see how it would be easy for anyone to process a transaction just as I did and have a problem just as I have. It is the responsibility of PayPal to clarify the transaction processes for its “user initiated” website.
March 12th—Total overdraft fees finally amount to $757.00 which have to borrow from family members to bring our bank account back to positive balance to avoid further bank action against us.
June 21st, September 4th, November 2nd – Have telephoned, emailed, sent certified mail, overnighted, and faxed 40 pages of documentation regarding this dispute.
November 16th—A Paypal adjustment for $29.00 shows up on my account, which also happens to be the amount of ONE overdraft fee. No correspondence to verify it.
December 20th— Overnight all 40 pages of documentation again and include statement that I am not accepting their $29.00 as rectification in this matter. Total of $757.00 is only thing that will be acceptable.
December 27th—Faxed all 40 pages of documentation again to attention of Sarah Impach, Senior VP of Customer Service, Operations, and Fraud and Todd Pearson, Senior VP of Financial Services
This is the response given to you by customer service.
Dear Ms. xxxx,
I have reviewed your PayPal account and the issue regarding your recent inquiry and would like to take this opportunity to update you on the situation that you reported and offer further explanation concerning the issue.
I am very sorry to hear of the problems you have been experiencing. I have conducted extensive research regarding your situation and have reviewed your PayPal account records, and your past correspondence.
Unfortunately, the information you were given by the PayPal representative, Marcus, is incorrect. PayPal does not charge the credit card designated as primary regardless of what card you select to use, either now, or at the time you made the transaction in question. PayPal users are always free to select what source of funding they wish to use for the transactions they initiate. I apologize for the incorrect information that Marcus relayed to you and I can assure you that the matter will be handled internally.
Furthermore, I have reviewed the transaction in question with members of PayPal’s technical and product teams and we have identified absolutely no errors that would have resulted in the transaction being applied to a credit card other than the one you selected at the time you initiated the transaction.
As the PayPal Terms of Use state that PayPal cannot be responsible for incorrect information entered by senders during the initiation of a transaction, we cannot be responsible for the fees incurred by you from your bank as a result of you selecting the wrong credit card to fund your transaction.
However, based on the amount of time needed to reach a resolution of this issue and because of the incorrect information given to you by a PayPal representative which served to compound the issue, PayPal will issue a credit in the amount of $29.00 to your PayPal account balance as a gesture of good will. This credit represents the initial fee charged to you by your bank (as evident in the bank statement you supplied) as a direct result of the transction in question. As PayPal has found no error as you have alleged, and as the further fees charged to you by your bank are not a direct result of the transaction in question, PayPal will not reimburse you for any further fees charged to you by your bank. I can only suggest that you consult with your bank and request that the fees be waived in light of your circumstances.
Please understand that the credit being applied to your PayPal account is exactly what was stated previously, a gesture of goodwill. The credit does not imply or, is not a result of, any errors made by PayPal, as a complete investigation has identified no such errors.
If you have any questions or concerns please feel free to reply directly to this message. You may also contact customer service by visiting http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_contact-general, or by phone at 402-935-7733.
posted on December 28, 2001 05:40:44 PM new
wow ,may be i am missing something here,why is your bank keep charging you for overdraft fee?did you keep using your primary account??
one question -when you add a second card to your account and then proceed to use it right away,you said a screen comes up ,you review everything to be correct-that is -the second card just added is being used,then you approve by pressing enter key??
from what i understand,there is usually some time lapse between adding a new credit card/bank account to the time it is really in effect,which means it has been verified and updated and checkout by paypal or any organisation.
could it be possible that paypal system is not ready to process your request with the second card and so it defaults to the first.
see,your second card has to be entered on the paypal main database as a good card and this is not going to happen in seconds after you press first enter of adding this card to your account.
i would think after it gets to paypal system,there is so checking to be done,other wise everyone will be adding any card in sight
posted on December 28, 2001 10:27:41 PM new
Damon and Paypal Customer Service--
First I would like to say thank you for at least providing me with a written response that sounded a little more personally written than just a form letter.
I will address the issues as quoted in your response to me:
1. Quote "Unfortunately, the information you were given by the PayPal representative, Marcus, is incorrect. PayPal does not charge the credit card designated as primary regardless of what card you select to use, either now, or at the time you made the transaction in question."
I feel so much better knowing that your representatives are giving out false information.
2. Quote "I have reviewed the transaction in question with members of PayPal’s technical and product teams and we have identified absolutely no errors that would have resulted in the transaction being applied to a credit card other than the one you selected at the time you initiated the transaction."
Explain to me how I could have received a "Receipt for your Auction Payment" email from Paypal that lists the same exact shipping address that is listed as the billing and street address for the credit card that WAS initiated for transaction but did not get charged. This address is not the same as my primary card and is not listed as a billing or street address for my primary card. A copy of this email has also been included in every attempted contact with PayPal.
3. Quote "PayPal will issue a credit in the amount of $29.00 to your PayPal account balance as a gesture of good will. This credit represents the initial fee charged to you by your bank (as evident in the bank statement you supplied) as a direct result of the transction in question. As PayPal has found no error as you have alleged, and as the further fees charged to you by your bank are not a direct result of the transaction in question"
Also supplied in all of my documentation to PayPal was a spreadsheet showing day by day how this "transaction" affected my bank account balance. The information on the spreadsheet was taken directly from the bank statement that I supplied. (I can email a copy of this to anyone who wants it directly.) The intial transaction error of $308.95 hit my account on February 14th. The reimbursement funds did not hit my account from PayPal until March 1st. My husband and I have a checking account for a reason and that is to use it. And so naturally it had been used before this "transaction" took place. As you might know, not all transactions clear bank accounts immediately. And yet you claim that these overdraft charges "are not a direct result of the transaction in question". Funny then how my account balance should have been positive every day from February 14th to March 1st. None of my authorized transactions would have encountered overdraft charges had not PayPal charged the wrong card. And isn't it funny how my account balance would still be
-$757.00 had not my husbands relatives loaned us the money to pay for all of these overdraft charges that were a direct result of this transaction. So while I really appreciate "PayPal's gesture of goodwill" in refunding $29.00, I won't be giving up until I receive PayPal's gesture in the amount of $757.00.
posted on December 28, 2001 10:48:45 PM new
Stopwhining--
1. why is your bank keep charging you for overdraft fee?did you keep using your primary account??
My account went into a negative balance the day the "transaction" hit my account. I did not have the funds to support the transaction amount. Then I also had outstanding transactions from regular use of my bank account. Each time one of these hit my account when it was in the negative I was charged a $29.00 overdraft charge. Once I discovered the problem I stopped using the account, but when all the transactions had finally cleared, the amount of overdraft and bank charges totaled $757.00.
2. when you add a second card to your account and then proceed to use it right away,you said a screen comes up ,you review everything to be correct-that is -the second card just added is being used,then you approve by pressing enter key?? from what i understand,there is usually some time lapse between adding a new credit card/bank account to the time it is really in effect,which means it has been verified and updated and checkout by paypal or any organisation.
Taken straight from PayPal's Add Credit Card Screen:
"For your protection, we verify credit card billing addresses.
The process normally takes about 30 seconds, but it may take longer during certain times of the day. Please press the "Save" button to update your information. When your card has been successfully added, you will see a confirmation page."
Adding a credit card is not the same process as adding a bank account. This card was confirmed within seconds.
posted on December 29, 2001 08:16:39 AM new
wow,thats what i can say.
thanks for the explanation.
may be paypal can ask its programmer to review the programming codes??
i always wonder how two persons can share one checking account ?
i know it is easy with siamese twins,but normal people??
29 dollars overcharge fee from your bank,you need to talk to your banker and tell her to lift those fees?
i have been with my bank for 4 years,i have a personal banker who calls me and waive that fee and accept the overdrawn amount,as she expects me to come up with the money soon.like VERY SOON,LIKE GET YOUR --- into our lobby right now with that difference!
i live right next to them.
posted on December 29, 2001 09:02:35 PM new
First of all, as stopwhining said, contact your bank, and they may be able to help you. You never authorized any transaction from your Visa check card, so I would report to your bank that PayPal charged your card without your permission. PayPal is absolutely at fault here. If PayPal said on the final page or another page that it was charging your other credit card as you told it to, and then charged another card, the transaction to the other card is unauthorized. Also, what PayPal says about the other overdraft charges not directly resulting from the transaction is false. Because of the unauthorized transaction, you couldn't put your bank account back into positive. Due to this you incurred other overdraft fees for other transactions you couldn't stop. Saying the other overdraft fees weren't directly related is like making one domino fall onto another domino and saying the fact that all the other dominos fell afterward doesn't directly have to do with the first domino falling onto the second one. If your bank can't help you, then you can take them to arbitration persuant to their terms of service.
posted on December 30, 2001 10:28:59 AM new
i think if you take time to visit your banker and explain this snafu,they will waive the 29 charges on these overdrafts.
paypal reimburse you for one transaction,let the bank keeps that and tell them to erase the other $29 charges.
it happens especially if you have been with them for over a year and is in good standing and have other business relationshps with them.
posted on January 9, 2002 09:22:32 AM new
I have been a customer with my bank for several years. My husband and I took time off from work to go to the bank in person about this issue. We met with the bank manager and explained the situation. I gave the bank a copy of all correspondence with Paypal and a signed letter stating that we were not to be held responsible for these overdraft charges due to an unauthorized transaction. However, the unauthorized transaction amount of $308.95 was refunded by the seller through Paypal. Normal unauthorized transaction procedure did not take place, which would have allowed the bank to reimburse all overdraft charges and recover the transaction amount. The bank maintained that PayPal was the one at fault and would have to reimburse these charges to us. We even inquired about leaving the account where the transaction had occured at
-$757.00 and using our other checking account, but the bank stated that all funds deposited into the other checking account would be used against the first accounts negative status until it was brought to a positive. So, it came down to borrowing the $757.00 and going after PayPal to get the money from their error back. I still have not received anything from Damon or Customer Service in response to my last post and email.
posted on January 9, 2002 08:08:28 PM new
Your bank could have been nice to you, but it was completely their decision. I think it was PayPal's fault either way from what I'm seeing. Your bank could have reversed the fees but because they didn't, I would try going after PayPal for the money. It seems that you have already tried resolving this with PayPal, however, I would send them one more e-mail message and/or phone call and see if they are going to refund the charges in a timely manner. If they don't, or wait weeks without answering you, here is an article that was posted on the Auctionwatch boards dealing with this very subject (about getting your money back from PayPal):
http://www.aboutpaypal.org/taking_paypal.htm
[ edited by andrew123s on Jan 9, 2002 08:12 PM ]
