posted on January 30, 2002 09:51:05 PM new
Hello everyone, I am new to this forum as I was referred to here and other boards to tell my story of my problems with Paypal.
To give you a brief overview someone hacked into my Paypal account 4 weeks ago and:
1.) Changed my user name and password so I don't have access to my account.
2.) Withdrew the entire balance of my Bank Account that was linked(I am a seller).
3.) Attempted to charge my credit cards in file but were denied as the sums exceeded the limit.
4.) Transfered money from several other hacked accounts into my account before transferring it elsewhere as a large sum(I do not know all the details as Paypal will not disclose any info to me and I don't have access to my account to see what happened).
Paypal has done the following since the fraud was reported:
1.) Refused to give me any information regarding what happened.
2.) Refused to give me access to my account so that I can at least delete all bank and credit card info and close the account.
3.) Refused to close the account.
4.) Refused to have anyone from their fraud department contact me. Apparently the fraud department does not have a call center and does not speak with customers.
5.) Refused to refund the bank withdrawal or any of the amount of money that was in my Paypal account at the time.
After the fraud occurred the customer service agent e-mailed me an Affidavit to report the fraud. I sent it in immediately. Well Saturday I received it back in the mail from Paypal with a note stapled to it requesting my credit card statement that the fraud occurred on. I had told them from the beginning that it was my bank account that was cleared out and that they gave me the wrong form but they insisted that it was the correct form.
Now listen to this, I have been corresponding with Damon Billian at Paypal for the past 2 weeks and have been trying to get him to have someone that can help me call me. Each day he tells me that they will be contacting me and they never do. Well 2 days ago I e-mailed him to tell him that they sent the Affidavit back and needed to know what information they wanted and why they didn't just keep it on file and request whatever further info they needed(since supposedly it is the notarized Affidavit that confirms my identity and allows them to contact me).
Well today Damon e-mails me and tells me that the rep said that he contacted me. Since I have not been contacted I quickly e-mailed him back confirming that nobody has called me. He then tells me that the rep not only said that he contacted me but that they would never send the Affidavit back in the mail even if it was the wrong one(insinuating that I was lying).
Well, much to Paypals detriment, I have all correspondence via e-mail with Paypal showing their negligence as well as the envelope that the Affidavit was sent back in, postmark with their stamp code, stamp on the Affidavit from the day they received it, and note that they stapled to the Affidavit.
When this first happened I did not blame Paypal as I know that stuff happens and systems get hacked all the time. I now blame Paypal as they have been negligent in dealing with this issue as well as told lies. It has now been 1 month and I have yet been able to speak with someone that can help me and am told they won't contact me until they receive back the Affidavit that they sent back to me but deny. Basically I am done dealing with Paypal as you can see it is futile. Instead I will pursue it in the legal arena as I have all the proof necessary to show at minimum negligence on Paypals part.
I just wanted to warn everyone as the same could happen to you. I was one of Paypals first customers and did several thousand dollars a month with them. I never in my wildest dreams thought that Paypal would be this ignorant and incompetent if a problem did arise; guess I was wrong.
posted on January 30, 2002 10:10:35 PM new
Sorry to hear this has happened to you. In my experience with PayPal, they don't care about their members problems. They don't have the manpower to address the extremely high numbers of problems associated with them. Damon told me himself that they only have about 300 customer service people to handle all of these problems. It must be a nightmare to come to work everyday for these people knowing they're going to have to deal with such a workload. PayPal has lost millions and millions of dollars since their inception so they probably can't afford to hire a sufficient work force to attend to peoples problems. Bad customer service is the death of many companies here and if PayPal doesn't do something about theirs than they are digging their own grave. Just my opinion. Good luck in your fight to get back what is rightfully yours.
posted on January 31, 2002 04:03:47 AM new
Muscle96ss, if it isn't too late, I would go to the bank and fill out an affidavit there saying the debit from PayPal was fraudulent, and they should reverse it. However, it may be past the time limits to do this. But banks are generally understanding and they might reverse it depending on when this happened.
If they won't, you are insured up to 100,000 dollars with Travelers insurane. You can file a claim for any money you lost from your PayPal account or your linked accounts (e.g. bank account). Maybe Damon can give you some advice; problems posted in public seem to get more attention than e-mails between a customer and PayPal.
Uaru, yes, this story is very different than the story on the news. That is the problem. Instead of being so incompetent here, they should have done what they did to the person who wrote the article and then the user wouldn't be having this problem.
posted on January 31, 2002 09:22:17 AM new
Its my view that Paypal is under extreme pressure due to financial troubles, chargebacks, and complaints and have developed these various schemes to keep its operation afloat until they can cross the IPO wire to fund their draining slush accounts. All should close their accounts and close any attached accounts as this company is clearly on a collision path with complete chaos and destruction.
posted on January 31, 2002 10:01:16 AM new
Just want to add some things that I feel are pertinent.
Paypal has told me that their system is "hack-proof" and that I probably opened up an e-mail that gave someone access to my computer and that is how things originated. If this were the case than I would be more than understanding; however the facts remain:
1.) No system is "hack-proof" 100%; if they think that their system cannot be hacked or accessed by insiders then they should not be working in the computer field; period!
2.)I do not open up e-mails from people I do not know.
3.) If someone got into my computer system they would have done more than just access my Paypal account. Since I run a business I have many different accounts and banking info on my computer and it is unconceivable that someone would choose to only use my Paypal account when they have access to much larger amount of funds.
4.) Through no help of Paypal I have found out that someone fraudently transfered money from several other accounts into mine before sending a large sum elsewhere. Therefore if they hacked into my computer and not Paypals then please explain how other accounts were hacked into at the same time and used in conjunction with mine. Sorry but again it is not believable. In addition they will not tell any info on these other accounts that were involved so that I can investigate myself and trace things myself since Paypal is not doing anything. Their excuse is that they can't confirm that I am not the hacker. Considering they have my original information from 2 years ago I don't buy this. In addition if I was the hacker than I would not need this info and to tell me would be of no use since I obviously already know it. Also they tell me that when they receive the Affidavit they will know that it is really me and be able to give me some info. That would be nice except for the fact that they returned the Affidavit to me and deny it now even though I hold actual proof. In fact I offered Damon the opportunity to send a UPS call tag to pick up this proof and have it delivered directly to him so that he can see I am right and then apologize and rectify immediately. He has yet to take me up on my offer.
I think it is quite obvious that Paypals business practices are absurd and considering they are dealing with such large sums of money and peoples bank accounts they have not only a moral obligation but a legal obligation to exercise better business practices.
posted on January 31, 2002 12:21:04 PM new
Damon, why don't you want proof that the affadavit was sent and returned? This is yet another case where PayPal denies receviging information where there is hard proof that it was delivered. It seems as if one is popping up now all the time. I'm sure PayPal would deny receiving the affadavit even if this person flew over to your offices with a video camera and videotaped him hading it to you.
posted on January 31, 2002 01:32:26 PM new
Hi andrew123s,
I've confirmed what I reported to the user with customer service. They do not have the information. I am also getting a copy of the email sent from the representative advising as such.
posted on January 31, 2002 01:44:38 PM new
Yes, Damon you are correct; you have reported to me what you say the rep told you. However unfortunately what the rep told you is irrelevant as I have proof that it is untrue(do you want to have the envelope fingerprinted or is the envelope itself, along with the postmark, stamp meter number and contents that contains the affidavit with a stamp on day received and the note attatched with its return to me; enough proof for you to admit that your rep is lying?)
In fact so this does not have to go through the legal system I will make a challenge to you right now. How's this:
We get a legal party to draw up a contract(you can pick any neutral person you desire and I will pay for it). The contract will state that if I am lying I will give you $100,000 to compensate for false allegations. However if I am telling the truth you will give me $100,000 in punitive damages due to Paypals complete negligence and lies.
Come on Damon, put your money where your mouth is. One thing you will learn about me is not only am I very upfront but I do not talk the talk if I can't walk the walk. This is an open challenge to you and if you are going to stick by your words then back them up with actions here now.
posted on January 31, 2002 02:03:12 PM new
STALL EM DAMON, YOU HAVE STALLED BETTER THEN THIS GUY. I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT. JUST HELP PAYPAL STAY AFLOAT A LITTLE LONGER! HEY WHEN YOU GUYS FOLD SHOP I THINK I WILL OFFER YOU A JOB FOR MY GOPHER CAUSE YOU WILL CLEARLY DO ANYTHING OR SAY ANYTHING IF PAID WELL ENOUGH
posted on January 31, 2002 02:43:51 PM new
Also let me clarify something that I have been reading in other threads. There seems to be a misconception that the users are bound by the "User Agreement" and cannot sue Paypal and instead must go through arbitration.
Unfortunately the facts are this: The Paypal User Agreement is a bilateral legally binding contract. In the case where Paypal does nothing wrong then yes it must be adhered to. However in cases such as this where there is clear proof of negligence then Paypal has violated that contract themselves and therefore the stipulations for the users are no longer legally binding. To put it simply; if you enter into a contract with someone and they violate that contract then the contract is no longer enforceable by the violating party.
Just thought I would clear this up as it seems that many people are steered away from suing based on the misconception that they must arbitrate.
I will post updates on my case as appropriate but I intend to pursue this to the end as the last straw was Damon's accusations that I am lying.
posted on February 1, 2002 02:19:33 AM new
Hell, they've probably already spent it. Even if he were to get a judgement, getting the money from PayPal would probably be near impossible. I can't believe PayPal is allowed to operate. It's kind of hard to stay afloat when you're losing millions each year. Not a company I want to trust my money with. I wish I had done a little research before joining such an organization. At least it only cost me $100 to learn my lesson about PayPal and not 5 figures like some of the people I've seen here. I really feel bad for those guys.
posted on February 1, 2002 10:03:59 AM new
Damon; you wrote the other day:
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<br />
"I've confirmed what I reported to the user with customer service. They do not have the information. I am also getting a copy of the email sent from the representative advising as such."
<br />
<br />
Well where is that e-mail that you are supposedly getting? How long does it take to produce a simple e-mail as proof of what you say. I have offered you my proof as well as a challenge that would resolve this immediately but you have yet to respond.
<br />
<br />
Damon, you have made your statement of your stance; now back it up and accept my challenge. In fact we can even up the amount to larger than $100,000 if you desire; to any amount greater to your liking(as it will be my liking too).
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[ edited by muscle96ss on Feb 1, 2002 10:04 AM ]
posted on February 1, 2002 03:31:09 PM new
muscle96ss - It's probably no surprise to you that Damon has not responded to your challenge. How much of a crack-up is it to read his responses to people, like yourself, (i.e., "I've confirmed what I reported to the user with Customer Service..." PLEASE!! I wonder if his boss has read his work lately?
And how funny is the link posted above by uaru (another PayPal employee, I'll assume), stating that "... might find this reporter's recent similar experience in stark contrast"... No Doubt! THE GUY IS A REPORTER IN THE COMUPTER INDUSTRY - HE PROBABLY KNOWS THEM PERSONALLY - NOT TO MENTION THE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE HE COULD CAUSE THEM IF THEY'RE NOT CAREFUL WITH HIM!! The most amazing thing in the reporters story? HE ACTUALLY SPOKE TO SOMEONE IN PAYPALS "CUSTOMER SERVICE" DEPARTMENT!! (I was just shocked to hear that such a place existed) And the guy (allegedly) managed eMachine's Internet and Software business units - has been in the computer industry for 30+ years, so why is he taking security advise from "PayPal folks"?
I stumbled on this board because I am completely frustrated and DONE with PayPal, and needed a place to make it known that they have got to be one of the biggest anti-customer (unless you're into fraud) organizations I've ever come across.
But my story now seems so trivial compared to the one's I've read on this board! Mine doesn't actually involve me losing any money, but before they're done, they will have damaged my reputation on e-bay, as I fully expect the sellers that I have purchased from to give me negative feedback as a result of what paypal has done (and failed to do). And the most frustrating part about it? I CAN'T GET ANYONE TO GIVE ME ANY KIND OF A RESPONSE WHATSOEVER!! Through e-mail, through Fax, through their 'Help' message system... Nothing!
I have 2 bank accounts in my PayPal profile. When I closed my old checking account and opened a new one, I tried to remove the old one on paypal, or at least make the new one my 'Primary' account. Their system wouldn't allow me to make an unconfirmed account my primary account (even though I informed them that I was closing the account listed as 'Primary'). So I left things as they were, went through the process of getting my new account 'confirmed' (and, admittedly - this is where I erred) forgot to go back and make the new account my 'Primary' account. I didn't have any activity on paypal for approx 9 to 10 months - then went to pay for an auction last week using my bank (checking) account on Paypal. Since they only show you your 'Primary' account, I didn't even think twice, and told them to use my checking account. Guess what... my transaction gets returned because my bank says there's a problem (duh). So PayPal charges my credit card for the same amount (fine) - and restricts my paypal account.
That's where the fun begins. I get a note from paypal simply stating that there's a problem with my bank account and my PayPal account has been restricted. I investigate a little and find what I mentioned above (I had inadvertently used the wrong checking account). No problem, they aren't out any money (they charged my credit card), the seller isn't out any money (for the same reason). I change my 'Primary' account to the one that is actually open, write a letter of explanation to them, faxed them everything they requested (including a copy of my driver's license, the checking account statement for the new account, a utility bill showing my name and address). Nothing. This has been going on for 4 days now. I have heard absolutely NOTHING! The biggest part of the problem? I have 3 other payments 'pending' that I had sent after I sent the first one (but before I was notified of the 'restriction'). I'm expecting that I'll get home tonight to find out that they have been returned (due to the fact that my account has since been restricted). I've been trying, in vain, to get someone to at least acknowledge that I'm trying to communicate with them. I keep logging on, and keep getting the same thing: "Account Restricted". So I send another e-mail, and it's as if they're going into a black hole somewhere. This is the most frustrating (total lack of) customer service I have ever experienced in my life!!
So what do you have to say to that, Damon?
muscle96ss - I seriously hope you are able to recoup your losses - I feel very bad for the people, such as yourself, who have posted their stories on here that have major losses, and what appears to be little to no hope of recovering them. Best wishes to all of you. I just hope we can get the word out there that PAYPAL IS NOT THE KIND OF COMPANY ANY SELF-RESPECTING PERSON WANTS TO DO BUSINESS WITH!!
posted on February 2, 2002 06:41:31 AM new
they are not even FDIC insured its a joke that people keep money stored with a company who answer to NO ONE and do as they please.........man wish I had a company who does business like paypal and still keeps on growing@
PLEASE!! I wonder if his boss has read his work lately?