posted on August 16, 2001 12:40:33 AM
It amazes me that anyone can claim to know my motives. On what basis? Color? Geography? The typeset I use to post?
I am angry about the SAME thing you all are angry about, INJUSTICE. Geographical injustice, racial injustice- in two forms.
What specifically did I say that was offensive? Was it just that I brought up the topic? Did I state any facts that you would deem as incorrect?
I don't want to be offensive and I am willing to examine my words and motives and withdraw any that are without merit or truth.
But do NOT ask me to bend on political correctness. Cause that I will not do.
T
We don't really care what culture our work mates and friends are from as much as we do how much money they make and what they look like and sound like.
Gravid, can you explain what you mean by this? I ask because I would lump "look like and sound like" with "culture". My thinking was in terms of "beliefs, customs" which would include mannerisms of speech, socially accepted moral code, traditions, etc. I think ALL people in general prefer what they are comfortable with and accustomed to which generally would be their own "culture" of upbringing...be it African American, American Indian, Indian, Spanish, European, etc. People use different terms based on culture as well as the "sound" of their voice. (At a loss for proper scientific labels.) Any person (here) can identify the race of black, white, Indian (not American Indian), Mexican/Spanish on the telephone immediately with no trouble at all. Other "cultures" would be more unclear. So I wondered what you intended there.
I personally would have no care for looks. The other things I admit might influence me.
[ edited by jt on Aug 16, 2001 01:15 AM ]
You're obviously angry at the injustice of it all, and that anger may be a useful first step. With it now you need to organize, to form or join groups with political clout which can exert pressure toward the enactment of legislation designed to prevent the sorts of abuses you suffer. It won't be an easy course to take given the bias against you, but you already know that from the experiences that you've described here.
Perhaps rather than post your grievances here you might better spend your time seeking out white organizations and groups already working toward the rightful ends that you would have in place. I'm sure that there must be some such organization, sort of an NAACP for white people.
There's nothing racist about white people wishing for equal treatment in this country.
posted on August 16, 2001 01:20:46 AMjt:Any person (here) can identify the race of black, white, Indian (not American Indian), Mexican/Spanish on the telephone immediately with no trouble at all. Other "cultures" would be more unclear.
Actually, that is untrue. It assumes that people of various ethnic backgrounds always speak with an accent or using a particular dialect. Not all black Americans use ebonics. Not all people of Hispanic descent have accents.
posted on August 16, 2001 01:29:16 AM
True bunnicula. But 99.9% of the whites have a heavy Southern drawl (which I can't even hear anymore) and 99.9% of the blacks speak ebonics. I have met 2 or 3 exceptions in my entire life (here) and they have gone both ways. I can identify a "Yankee" in one spoken word.
OHHHH....NOOOO...KRS. You are not about to get me to join any "hate group" on that list.
(YOU just want me to get in deep deep green slime.)
T
BTW bunnicula, I met someone here (not here now), and we have talked on the phone a number of times. We just CRACK UP at the sound of eachother's voice. I mean we can NOT get over it. He mocks, "Will ya pleasssse make me a glaaaassss a' sweeeet teeeeea, hun-eeee?" (I do NOT sound like that! I don't think?)
Deciding to edit out the name of a forever suspended AW poster just in case it's illegal.
[ edited by jt on Aug 16, 2001 01:44 AM ]
posted on August 16, 2001 01:42:21 AM
I know you don't realize it, Terri, but it's in quite a few of the comments you make. Here's one from about a month ago:
"There seem to be so many more social problems for black kids as a rule that education takes second, third, fourth place. Two parent households with married parents are nearly non-existant here and they are not valued. I will guess that 50% of 18 year old black females in my area have at least 2 children by more than one father. Education is not really encouraged by parents and peers. Role models are seriously lacking or more often distorted. (Just listen to black popular music.)
I can't tell you the hundreds of times I see a black child hit, not just "disciplined" but "hit" by a parent in public...in the grocery, on the street, etc. I hear them cursed at by their parents. I never see a black child wearing a seatbelt or in a car seat."
A person could stretch an awful lot, and might be able to take all of that as a true assessment, if not, maybe, for this one sentence:
"I never see a black child wearing a seatbelt or in a car seat."
That gives it all away.
And you could honestly insist that that is the truth, you never see a black child wearing a seatbelt or in a car seat. And I believe that you believe that. But it's not true. I don't have to have been where you've been, and seen every car that you've seen, to know that's not true.
What you "see" is distorted by your own mindset.
And now you "see" another problem, one that everyone should be warned about. "The problem is that the minority is no longer the minority but the majority and racism in reverse is also alive and well."
Gee, are those two problems, or one?
Over and over, you've expressed your desire to preserve and protect your (Southern) culture. Now you've found a Yahoo link that talks about cultures, and you're using that to get back to the same old stuff. Maybe you really buy into the "preserving and protecting (Southern) culture," thing, and honestly do not see it as a code phrase used to justify continuing prejudicial practices.
Part of the defense of this has always been - "They want it this way too!" And now you've got a link that can be neatly used to shore up this tired spew.
The most generous thing I can say about it is - You didn't invent this line. But, you have swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker. Once, perhaps, people didn't know any better. But the time for that excuse has passed.
posted on August 16, 2001 01:43:59 AMJT did make one point which has a truth in it that wasn't addressed though it got her a partial reply.
As far as BET, versus, WET: WET exists daily, yanno, Friends, Seinfield, et al, hence the creation of BET. Seems it only becomes an issue when some white people are forced to look outside of their world.
Yes, things like BET exist because in the past minorities were rarely represented on TV & in society in general. BUT that doesn't address was jt was getting at. People don't blink an eye at something like a Black Nurse's Association for example...but something called a White Nurse's Association would immediately be picketed for integration & called racist. There is a specific station, BET, but a specific station called WET would cause an uproar. In the town I live in there is an Hispanic Businessman's Assn., but not a "white" businessman's assn.--it wouldn't be tolerated.
I go to see "Romeo & Juliet" recently & the cast is fully integrated including the black Romeo. And that's OK with me (the fact that the production stunk wasn't caused by the integration). But the production of "Lion King" doesn't have a discernible non-black cast member--why not?
But it's not PC these days to note things like that. People who do so tend to be labeled "racist." It's not a matter of "white people being forced to look outside their world," but of *really* treating all people with equality.
posted on August 16, 2001 01:49:49 AMjt: truth to tell, I know both blacks & whites from the South & their accents are identical! On the phone one Southener sounds pretty much like another.
And while many blacks speak ebonics, not all do--and certainly not as much as 99% across the nation. In geographic pockets, yes, but not in toto. And many can turn it on & off, speaking one way at home or with friends and another when at school or work.
posted on August 16, 2001 02:08:32 AM
Thanks krs for pointing that out - I'd never make it as a sniper would I? Looks like we were posting/editing at the same time
posted on August 16, 2001 02:42:46 AM
Donny, I will reply to each of those and consider them fair things to bring up.
What I stated about car seats and seat belts is what I SEE in my community. I do not by any means think that there are not exceptions that I have not seen, or that carseat usage among blacks is not the norm somewhere else. I know what I see here and it is SAD, a crime even. I am sorry that I must admit that I can not find any statistics related to race on carseat usage so you have me in a noose on that one.
As for unwed mothers, I can't find statistics for MS so lets take Florida instead.
http://www.sfrpc.com/region/vitalc02.htm I DO realize that "non-white" in Florida would include a high hispanic population as well as blacks so figures may differ from my own state. How about we look at teen birth rates in FL too?
http://www.sfrpc.com/region/vitalc03.htm
Georgia average for comparison: (GA would likely more closely reflect MS)
% White unwed of total White births 20.7%
% Black unwed of total Black births 67.1%
I admit that I was OFF in my estimation by 3.6% when averaging counties. Could you please remember that I live in a 71.1% black county and give me a 3.6 margin of error whenever I guess wildly at statistics? I also ADMIT that I have NO AGE statistic on these unwed mothers because none is given.
On child abuse. I will WITHDRAW THAT STATEMENT ADMITTING THAT RACE IS NOT A FACTOR based in this statistical information.
"There were no significant race differences in the incidence of maltreatment or maltreatment-related injuries uncovered in either the NIS-2 or the NIS-3."
Instead, I will attribute my observation to the factors of MARITAL STATUS and POVERTY:
"Children of single parents had a 77-percent greater risk of being harmed by physical abuse, an 87-percent greater risk of being
harmed by physical neglect, and an 80-percent greater risk of suffering serious injury or harm from abuse or neglect than children living with both parents."
BUT WAIT, didn't we just discover that births to unwed mothers (i.e. single parent households) ARE very much tied to race statistically?
"Children from families with annual incomes below $15,000 as compared to children from families with annual incomes above $30,000 per year were over 22 times more likely to experience some form of maltreatment that fit the Harm Standard and over 25 times more likely to suffer some form of maltreatment as defined by the Endangerment Standard. Children from the lowest income families were 18 times more likely to be sexually abused, almost 56 times more likely to be educationally neglected, and over 22 times more likely to be seriously injured from maltreatment as defined under the Harm
Standard than children from the higher income families."
"What you "see" is distorted by your own mindset."
What do you see Donny?
Over and over, you've expressed your desire to preserve and protect your (Southern) culture.
Yes, and I believe that that culture belongs equally to blacks and whites alike.
"The problem is that the minority is no longer the minority but the majority and racism in reverse is also alive and well."
I think that "minority status" should be given to the numerical "MINORITY" in any given area. I believe that racism in any form should NOT exist and that freedom of choice to segregate or intergrate as each race or culture sees fit should be allowed EQUALLY. I believe in preservation of ALL cultural heritage EQUALLY.
Anything else that I should address? Have I been fair and accurate except where I have admited error?
T
~rearranged several things for reader ease.
[ edited by jt on Aug 16, 2001 03:17 AM ]
posted on August 16, 2001 03:14:23 AM
Sara, Please keep in mind that I am only engaging in FRIENDLY CIVIL DEBATE. You will find NO personal attacks on Donny in my post what-so-ever.
T
posted on August 16, 2001 06:25:11 AM
Teri,
I've got some simple questions for you.. that maybe you've answered before. Have you lived your entire life in this one town? How often to do you get away and travel to other places ? (ie: Since you're in MS, have you ever spent time in NY, Detroit, Miami, Los Angeles, etc)
posted on August 16, 2001 08:15:16 AM
Rosie, I was going to ask the same thing. Your world & mindset is very small, until you get out in the world and meet new people, learn to appreciate & learn from our differences. The military was a great way for me to learn alot about different cultures. It is perfectly fine to want to preserve your culture, whether your white, Russian, Hispanic whatever. But lets face it. White males have dominated this country forever.They have never had to "prove" themselves, to just be considered a human being. Its just in the last 50 years, that white women have begun to be acknowledged & given equal rights. Other cultures are still being treated as second class citizens
I have been in Little Havanna & played Dominoes with Cubans. I have sat around a table with a family from Honduras & ate shrimp soup ( a specialty of the husband). I have tried to learn how to weave baskets from Kudzu, with a woman from Appalachia. I have worshipped in an African American church.
It's just a matter of opening your mind & your heart. When it all comes down to it, and all is said & done. It's not going to be about what color package you came in, it's going to be about how you treated others, and with what intent.
Oh, and 3 of my children are African American. And they always wear their seatbelts.
It's a shame, but I can tell you first hand, how differently I have been treated when out with one of my dark skinned children. People do judge by the color of your skin, and it's a damn shame.
posted on August 16, 2001 08:47:35 AM
If you say you are black, etc, who can argue with you? Do they make you provide documents about your ancestors?
We had a black fellow in the carpenter shop where I worked - at least that is how he looked - he also had one of the sharpest and quickest mouths I have ever run into - he could come up with a comeback without a hint of hesitation. When the Personel Department asked everyone what their racial group was he put down Eskimo. My boss was asked by his boss to verify that because they did not believe it and tried to squirm out of it but was forced. When asked to verify it he just said - "Are you suggesting my Mother lied to me.?"
What ya gonna say to that?
posted on August 16, 2001 09:19:25 AM
"Reverse racism" exists but it's a little odd to play the racism game for a couple of hundred years, be forced to stop and then scream "no fair!" when the medicine is dished back. The "no fair!" screamers weren't screaming "no fair!" when it wasn't their problem.
re: "In the town I live in there is an Hispanic Businessman's Assn., but not a "white" businessman's assn.--it wouldn't be tolerated" and the other examples which you gave.
There is no "White Businessman's association" because there is a "Businessman's Association". Or whatever it may be called. The "Hispanic Businessman's Association" was established by it's members in reaction to the longtime exclusion from and/or failure to address the concerns of hispanic businessmen by that existing association and would not exist but for that. I believe that it's true in any like case.
It is not fair or correct to term these things 'reverse racism' or any more seemingly polite thing whether they are TV programming efforts or nurse's associations, or whatever. The differentiated structures exist because of a need for such structures by all people engaged in the various activities. Had there been a real equality there would not have been a need to fight long and hard to establish a placing ALONGSIDE the already existing structures, as peoples of the various skin pigmentations and origins would have been included WITHIN those structures as naturally as both tall and short businessmen, nurses, whatever are included.
This thread has the characteristics of an episode of 'All in the Family'. When Sherman Hensley moves in, Archie Bunker says " Ah Geez, there goes the neighborhood".
posted on August 16, 2001 09:43:25 AMKrs: However, the "Businessman's Assn." is integrated...the "Hispanic Businessmen's Assn." is not. The Firefighter's Assn. is integrated...the Black Firefighter's Assn. is not. Any organization *today* (& that *is* what we're talking about) that set itself up as a *white* association would immediately be called racist & demands made for it to either cease or integrate.
This is what I mean about using the past as a crutch. Are things supposed to be equal for all now, or will it be "we're entitled, but you're not until you've had 200 years of inequality yourself"? And just exactly who are you talking about? *My* family, like so many others, didn't even come to this country until well after slavery had ended here. We want things to be equal now. That's good. But they should be completely equal regardless of what went on in the past. *Every* race has perpetrated inequalities--within their own group &/or against others. So it behooves us to remember the past, but to forge a new, different, future in which our claims for equality are exactly that.
posted on August 16, 2001 09:58:05 AM
It may be a fine idea to think that the past can be left behind but I don't think it's possible to do that. There's too much to lose. All progress takes a long time, attitudes and societal norms do not change simply by the saying so. Over al of the years of fighting for equality every inch of ground has cost someone something and that cost, though not a debt, would be expensive to pay again by the peoples who've paid it the first time.
What guarantee can be offered that there would be no loss if those who have made gains throw off the mechanisms by which they made them? With the state of attitude continually displayed over here or over there around the country or the world how could anyone believe that everything is new now and those sarifices will never be necessary again?
What should be is one thing. What has been and what is are another, and no matter how much idealistic lip service is paid to a belief that what should be is now the case, it is not the case.
posted on August 16, 2001 10:07:51 AM
Terri - you are always bringing up the southern culture. What exactly is your definition of that culture? What is it you are trying to preserve about it? From my view of southern culture and history most of it should be put out of it's misery!
You are always trying to prove how bad things are in your town and state. Always providing negatives about blacks or other non white races with your words and your links.
I said it before, you seem very isolated from the rest of the world. You need to get away from that computer, and that town you live in. You would benefit from meeting real live people with different views, and other living experiences.
