posted on August 16, 2001 10:38:37 AM
statistics statistics!
By those exact same statistics I can now draw the conclusion that: (the following example is not intended to be insulting or as a personal attack)
Teri is most likely: black/was physically abused as a child/most likely suffered from serious injury or harm ~ as a child
Her own children are: 22 times more likely to experience some form of maltreatment/ 18 times more likely to be sexually abused /
almost 56 times more likely to be educationally neglected
posted on August 16, 2001 10:57:18 AM
Terri - since there is such a large populous of blacks in your community do you have any black friends? I mean friends that you would invite over for dinner or go to their houses for dinner. Or at least visited their homes, and sat down and had a meaningful conversation with them one on one.
I think you said once that you and your family are kind of loners by choice. That you mostly just do things only with your family. Is that truly your choice? You evidently seek friendship, companionship, and intellectual conversation here.
First, you suggest pairing George Bush and Dan Quayle...LoL
Then you state, "From my view of southern culture and history most of it should be put out of it's misery!" ROTFLOL!!!
Do you know that they are still flying the Confederate flag to preserve this "culture?"
posted on August 16, 2001 12:33:29 PMBaduizm, if this is for me:"Who the hell do you think you are, in speaking for oppressed people of color?" put my name on it so I'll be sure.
Donny: my comments were directed at the originator of this thread, not you. You will know when I am talking to you
posted on August 16, 2001 06:19:31 PM
James, I wasn't born until 1965, therefore I get REAL tired of being blamed for the past.
Rosie, I suppose we all have had our minor bangs and bruises in life (not intended physically) but no, I wasn't/am not any of those things that you named.
Choco, I admit that I guess I am pretty much "a loner" but then most people got to work, go home, go to work, go home and spend time with their families. I have not been isolated in my house for 36 years if that is what you mean. I worked for 10 years in the hotel/restaurant industry where I was in daily contact with all kinds of people. After that I worked 5 years at a college. I have been a member of an intergrated church and it was my favorite all time.
But presently, I have a friend, also an ebay seller, a black male, with whom I garage sale, talk education, help with computer stuff. I have visited his home, he mine. He has an antique shop and I often hang out there. I chit chat with the grocery manager a lot though he has never been to my house, yet. I have offerd to teach him computer stuff. Another black friend in town has visited in the evening. I could go on, it would be stupid. I have discussed these issues with these people and though we may have some minor political differences at times, we do NOT have any problems. We DO have cultural differences- in manner of worship, in terms used in speech, in marriage customs, etc. One of them went down to Biloxi for Black Spring Break, with a laugh saying, "I just want to go down there with "my people" and have some fun." Fine.
That is why I asked is segregation EVER ok. I think it is. The same thing came up when I invited this same friend to church, both of us attend Baptist Churches, one black and one white. I was told, "We don't worship like you." I am familiar with this though I did not know about that paticular Baptist Church. The invitation still stands and I was not invited back in return. No problem.
In language we use different terms. For examples black males generally say, "Where do you stay?" Where as black females and whites say, "Where do you live." I could explain why if you like but it's a minor "cultural difference".
Of these friends, several have been in long term relationships, live together, have several kids and yet they say, "I am not ready for a commitment yet". I don't get it. It's none of my business. But it is a "cultural difference."
Though we do get together one on one, we never socialize in a group...I mean we would stop to say hello absolutely...but no one is going to invite me to a black picnic by any means. You will not see a racially mixed casual picnic in the park. It just doesn't generally happen, ever.
I think it's OK to do things with groups with whom you have the most in common. I think it's a natural tendency and should not be looked upon with scorn. If you are white, it IS.
To whomever asked me if I have lived in the South all my life, yes. I have been on normal vacations in the US and Mexico and I traveled as a kid in a somewhat "closed" social environment. I went over this recently in another thread. Most everyone that I know in RL has lived all their life in basically the same area. Though different than some of you, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It gives people roots and a shared heritage.
So what is this "shared heritage" that I spoke of that is multicultural? Defined as "something passed from one generation to the next". It is to me...
This land whether owned, or worked. It is fried chicken coverdish Sunday dinners. It is Yes'mam and No'mam and please and thank you. It was riding a bike in a small town where now EVERYONE you meet says "My! How you have grown...I remember when..." It is singing Amazing Grace. It is turnip greens with bacon grease. It was for me recalling with BB King my grandpa's gas station. It is having an older person tell you how to properly hoe. It is still standing or long gone log cabins where your grandparents where born. It is still seeing cotton fields in bloom. It is knowing where the well was. It is walking on a train trussle and seeing a vine covered sign on the track that says "Welcome to Wherever!" and hearing the tales of "when I walked that track..". It is mud pies and vine swings. It is going back to "the home place". It is walking in a cemetary where you know every headstone's story. It is the common experience of hand-me-down clothes. It is knowing were Huntsville is (though if you were to pass it you couldn't see it). It is fishing for catfish in the river. It is the daffodils that have been blooming in my yard since 1920. It is a dinner bell that rang then and it still rings now...3 times for a death and 5 times for a fire...and EVERYONE in earshot comes. It is the blues.
And none of that has a damned thing to do with race.
T
posted on August 16, 2001 06:52:25 PM
Yes, Terri you are right that is shared heritage, and has nothing to do with race. But, that is not what I would call the southern culture. However you did point to one part of southern culture. The picnic in the park! I couldn't imagine a gathering without different races, and sharing of foods from their cultures. You say that's just the way it is. To me that's pretty sad.
"Though we do get together one on one, we never socialize in a group...I mean we would stop to say hello absolutely...but no one is going to invite me to a black picnic by any means. You will not see a racially mixed casual picnic in the park. It just doesn't generally happen, ever."
"I think it's OK to do things with groups with whom you have the most in common. I think it's a natural tendency and should not be looked upon with scorn. If you are white, it IS."
<end quote>
In the park near my house the picnic area is filled with picknickers of all races. There are no groups that are segregated.
These racially mixed picnic groups have a lot in common. They live in the same community, their children go to the same schools, they work together and they play together. There are no barriers based on race.
I don't understand why, in your area you say that you will not see a racially mixed casual picnic in the park. That is unbelievable to me.
posted on August 16, 2001 07:24:06 PM
Chococake...I didn't notice your post right before mine. We had the same concern! I cant't imagine it either and I think that everybody knows that I wouldn't want to live there.
posted on August 16, 2001 07:31:07 PM
Teri, I guess that just goes to prove that anyone can use statistics to draw any conclusion that they want to ~ as long as it fits the mold. However it doesn't mean that the conclusion is accurate. That's the beauty of statistics and that's exactly why Mark Twain said that there's three types of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
I have only a few more comments for the night, as it's time to turn off the computer and head for bed:
------ {quote}
"In language we use different terms. For examples black males generally say, "Where do you stay?" Where as black females and whites say, "Where do you live." I could explain why if you like but it's a minor "cultural difference"."
_______ {end quote}
I think this is more of a lack of education than anything else and probably regional. I have a friend who works in a high position in the government. He would never dream of saying "where do you stay". Yet, oddly, he's a black male.
-------------{quote}
Of these friends, several have been in long term relationships, live together, have several kids and yet they say, "I am not ready for a commitment yet". I don't get it. It's none of my business. But it is a "cultural difference."
------------{end quote}
Umm.. to put it bluntly.. that's a crock! This happens in a lot of cultures. It happens to black folks, white folks, rich folks, poor folks, Baptist folks, Catholic folks, Jewish folks, (insert your favorite religion here). To say that "shacking up" "living together" is a "cultural difference" is assinine and shows a lack of knowledge of how things really are in the world.
Otherwise, I think everyone else has covered what I wanted to say about the park and picnics.
posted on August 16, 2001 07:45:01 PM
Wow what a surprise - really. We often go to picnics - usually at peoples homes but sometimes in the City Park, that are a mix of black and white, a few oriental and hispanic thrown in occasionally.
I didn't think it was that unusual, but maybe it is.
We have even had people from New York City, once we convinced them the squirrels would not attack.
posted on August 16, 2001 09:51:38 PM
Of course the children play together Helen.
Rosie the "where do you stay" thing is RECENT culture that relates to welfare. Most elderly blacks HERE ARE married. What happened was that with the welfare programs, (When did that start?) it was a financial disadvantage to be married. So blacks stopped marrying. Thus the women and children could be eternally provided for if the woman did not work and claimed there was "no father" or she didn't know who the father was. So though men were OFTEN involved in that family, they did not "live" there. They only "stayed" somewhere. Generation to generation actually TRAINED the children how to access government programs (welfare, food stamps) by these means and it became a way of recent culture. The more kids you had without a spouse, the more checks you got each month. I am guessing that this is about 4 generations now? But, the program has been changed and it's no longer a "free ride" and I think it's limited to 2 years. As a result, blacks are more commonly marrying again and you see the out of wedlock birth rate falling. Evidently the black male that you know does not share that part of the Southern black experience.
I hate to repeat myself, but it's been a while. I had a premature child and was put automatically on WIC which is a food suppliment program for infants and children. When my program was expiring, I was called into the office at the WAREHOUSE by a warehouse manager (not a program counselor which were located elsewhere) and instructed that I needed to be pregnant by XXX date in order to continue the program. He was "helping me".
The welfare cycle is breaking down now and you see people working...and at decent jobs. People ARE being more racially mixed in the work place for the first time in several generations. Unemployement falls, illegimate birth rate falls, marriage rate goes up. People wear better clothes, drive really nice cars, etc. But some people were so worried at the time the decision was made, "But what will happen to all these kids who NEED it?" Their families will come back together, people will work again, and their income will rise. That was a good decision.
Help me out democrats (who know ever move made), under what administration was that?
You are absolutely right that it does happen in all cultures. But it is not the accepted STANDARD in all cultures. Within the next several generations it may nearly vanish anyway.
I know that many of you think this is a horrible place, but to many it is "home" and it is comfortable and though we DO have problems, the problems are not what they are perceived to be by those looking in from the outside. Lots of people of all races REALLY don't mind things much the way they are (Jessie Jackson needs to stay home and read his Bible and repent.) but NO one wants to be without equality (in work and government and civil rights) and that includes me.
Should I feel "slighted" that I am never invited to a black picnic? I don't think so. I think that I would be considered an outsider and that there would be whispers as to why I was there. It would make people uncomfortable. If I should feel deprived, then I can always HAVE a picnic and invite whoever I want.
That aside, I did handle all the arrangements for Medgar Evers Homecoming (1990?) which IS a picnic and I WAS invited which is how I met BB King. I would have certianly felt slighted if I had missed that once in a lifetime opportunity. So- there are infrequent exceptions to the "picnic social rule".
T
posted on August 16, 2001 10:24:54 PM
The problem I see here is that Terri is not "seeing" what others want her to see. To her, this is what her world is, and what she has been used to. Whether it is the pc world to others or not, it is HER world. I dont judge her, because she lives and breathes what she is used to and what she considers "right" or "normal". None of us are in her shoes, or live her life, or know whats in her head. Personally, I dont think she means to come across like she is. I also dont think she is a bad person. Terri is just...Terri. I dont know anything about her except what I THINK she may think, BE what she may be, FEEL what she may feel. I do applaud her for trying so hard to be fair in her own mind for what she THINKS is the correct way to respect what she THINKS others may want..like the picnic thing. Me, I have been to mixed picnics many times, and I have been included in multi-race ceremonies, parties, get-togethers. But where I am from, it may be different than where she is from. Who knows what anyone elses life is like? We dont.
posted on August 16, 2001 11:00:54 PM
Oh, come on, guys. A little over the top with the picnic thing. You have never seen a picnic that isn't fully integrated? Have never been to a single one that doesn't feature a multitude of ethnic backgrounds & food? Let's get real here.
Yes, I go to lots of racially mixed picnics, parties, etc. But there are *lots* of picnics going on in my neck of the woods (Southern California) that aren't. Same for parties.
posted on August 16, 2001 11:17:47 PM
Let me clarify that I do not have any PROBLEM with any racially mixed picnic or party. It is common in business settings, work socials, it just doesn't happen in "social socials". And duh-huh can't people invite who they want to their OWN party? When did selecting friends with whom you feel comfortable and have things in common get to be evil?
I had business lunch with Charles Evers 3 times and drat he has never invited me to his house...I might cry. He doesn't want to be my friend socially...boo-hoo. *rolls eyes*
I am going to have a picnic. I am going to invite those of you that I enjoy chatting with and I am going to exclude those of you that grate on my nerves. How's that?
Now, where's my note pad so I can make a guest list?
T
posted on August 16, 2001 11:24:06 PM
Hi Terri...hope Im on your picnic list
Food for thought...have you ever thought that maybe Mr Evers hasnt invited you because he thinks you would not come? Or, would feel uncomfortable? Or maybe even thinks you would frown on the invitation? Just wondering. Sometimes, what seems to be obvious is not. Trust me, I know. If you ever run across him again, or even have his number, why not invite HIM to your place for lunch? Might open a new door and friendship would develope.
posted on August 16, 2001 11:36:19 PM
Bunnicula, I lived six years in the south, in Nashville, TN., where I received an undergraduate degree, from a historically black university. My alma mater was and continues to be under a federal court-order to desegregate. White students -- undergards, master's and doctoral candidates -- attend the university free of charge.
But I digress.
What disturbs me most about JT's comments in this thread can be found in several of Donny's posts. I do not believe this topic was started in sincerity. Nor do I believe it was opened to generate a thoughtful or meaningful discussion on the current state of race relations. There is no good faith. Period. Look at the yahoo link provided as fodder and justification.
The impetus, IMO, is to further perpetuate negative -- and in many cases erroneous -- stereotypes about black people. How can one person, who has admitted to having limited life experiences, speak with so much conviction and authority on matters outside their own admitted expertise, aside from observations?
These issues include:
*Birth rates among blacks and whites. More blacks live in unmarried households, yet have more babies. It's unheard of in the "white community." In Indiana, where I live the majority of TANF recipients have been, and continue to be white.
*Welfare dependency among blacks and whites. More blacks are on state and federal assistance than whites. It's a "black generational" issue, she says. Don't think so. There are plenty of unmarried white women here and elsewhere with a gaggle of children -- all with different daddies.
*Differing education levels among blacks and whites. The implicit issue here: Blacks aren't as educated and therefore, are simpletons. Again, crap.
*Statements that whites are becoming a "minority" in many cities and towns and "OHMYGOD" what do we do, do, do about it? Gotta preserve that culture.
*Segregation in the long run, is good. Sorry, that dog don't hunt for the most obvious reasons. If you don't know why, I ain't got time to explain it.
In sum, the originator of this thread likes to cast herself as "a racial healer," but in many instances merely stirs the racial pot.
In my Baptist church, that's considered very unChristian. Ooops, forgot. We don't worship the same way.
posted on August 16, 2001 11:40:50 PM
So Terri, you helped pull off the "Medgar Evers Homecoming" -- what pray tell that is -- And have forged a friendship with his son, Charles.
That is supposed to exonerate your earlier posts?
Not to me. Clear as a crystal day. Ting. Ting.
**dayum typos**
[ edited by Baduizm on Aug 16, 2001 11:56 PM ]
posted on August 17, 2001 12:30:30 AM
I don't claim to know anything at all outside my own area. I would sincerely like to talk about these things but there is too much adversity here to ever carry on a decent conversation on this topic.
Actually I don't care for Charles, Hepburn Baduizm. There was a great deal of strife between him and the Evers family anyway over some stuff he did in Chicago way back when. From what I gather they tolerate him. Though he was very nice to me and generous enough to give me his book, when I got to Chapter One where he said he had three women pregnant at once and told his wife, "If you don't like it, get out -ITCH.", I was done with him socially purely from a female standpoint. He was Mississippi's first black mayor and last time I heard he held a director position at public radio. Neither he nor Bill Clinton, nor Jessie Jackson will be invited to my picnic.
On a more pleasant note...The homecoming is held in Medgar's rememberance every year. It had traditionally been a giant picnic and BB always plays. It is held by the Evers Family as something of a family reunion.
posted on August 17, 2001 01:44:00 AMBaduizm: Gosh, to hear you guys tell it jt is the mastermind behind an evil racist plot, if not Satan incarnate!
I do not believe this topic was started in sincerity. Nor do I believe it was opened to generate a thoughtful or meaningful discussion on the current state of race relations. There is no good faith. Period. Look at the yahoo link provided as fodder and justification.
I did. That link simply provided a bunch of other links on a variety of racial subjects--including one in which *some* blacks are quoted as saying they feel safer in unintegrated neighborhoods. How dare they?
The impetus, IMO, is to further perpetuate negative -- and in many cases erroneous -- stereotypes about black people.
She has stated that she was indicating what *she* has observed in *her* particular area. Didn't say it was nationwide.
How can one person, who has admitted to having limited life experiences, speak with so much conviction and authority on matters outside their own admitted expertise, aside from observations?
But she *was* commenting on her *observations* of *her* sphere. One needs no particular expertise to observe what is going on around one.
These issues include: *Birth rates among blacks and whites.
It is a documented fact that the birthrate among blacks has gone up by about 16% from 1990 to 2000 while that of whites was about 13%. So? Not a negative thing. JT merely stated her concern, living in one of the few pockets in the country where blacks are in the majority, of receiving equal treatment under *today's* rules & regs. But, again, those are her observations of *her* area.
More blacks live in unmarried households, yet have more babies. It's unheard of in the "white community."
JT was over the top on that one as I sincerely doubt there are no unmarried white households.
In Indiana, where I live the majority of TANF recipients have been, and continue to be white.
And that's in your area. In my area, the majority on welfare are hispanic.
*Welfare dependency among blacks and whites. More blacks are on state and federal assistance than whites.
No, percentage-wise there are more blacks on welfare. Not by numbers, but by percentages of their populations. Here is a black site that supports those facts:
http://www.jointcenter.org/databank/factsht/welfpart.htmHowever, percentages of blacks (36%) and Hispanics (29%) who participated in such programs were higher than for whites (11%).
It's a "black generational" issue, she says. Don't think so. There are plenty of unmarried white women here and elsewhere with a gaggle of children -- all with different daddies.
Again, she is talking about *her* area. Mileage varies. And it *is* a generational issue for both blacks *and* whites. We were very poor when I was a kid--but my mother, like many of her generation black or white refused to go on welfare. That was something shameful that you did only as the very last resort. It was "living on charity." These days, lots of folks no matter what color seem to have no problem with it.
*Differing education levels among blacks and whites. The implicit issue here: Blacks aren't as educated and therefore, are simpletons. Again, crap.
She didn't say any such thing, she merely quoted facts. There *are* differing levels of education on a national basis. That doesn't mean that *all* blacks have less education. And she didn't imply that blacks were simpletons, merely that *many* have a different attitude toward education--and that that attitude has changed over the past few decades. And she's right. No, not for *all* blacks, everywhere--but overall yes. If you read literature on education you will find many references to black kids (& hispanic to some extent) bowing to peer pressure to not do so well in school...not to be too "white."
*Statements that whites are becoming a "minority" in many cities and towns and "OHMYGOD" what do we do, do, do about it? Gotta preserve that culture.
A legitimate concern....for every ethnic or racial group in today's world. Not the world of 50 years ago, or 150 years ago--today's world. And speaking of preserving culture, don't think that blacks are immune in this context: http://fairus.org/html/04128902.htm "This once predominantly black neighborhood is becoming largely Hispanic. South Central is being transformed. Here we talk about "black flight." People are leaving neighborhoods where they have lived for years because they don't feel like they belong any more. ...The president says immigration is "revitalizing our cities and energizing our culture." Is it "revitalizing our cities" to lower wages? President Clinton told us that schools have improved and scores are up. He can't mean our schools. Black kids are forced to listen to Spanish all day. Prop. 227, which was supposed to require that school lessons be in English, is a joke. Nothing has changed. We have schools that were 80 to 90 percent black that have become 80 to 90 percent Latino in just 10 years. No way are black kids getting a decent education now in Los Angeles public schools. ...People in Washington don't want to know how harmful immigration is for us. Even our black leaders are no help. They don't want to hear our troubles because they are liberals and think of immigration as a good thing, period. Black people are pushed aside and nobody is listening.
*Segregation in the long run, is good. Sorry, that dog don't hunt for the most obvious reasons. If you don't know why, I ain't got time to explain it.
No. She asked is it *always* a bad thing...and if segregation by choice on the part of blacks/Asians is the same as or as bad as white segregation by choice.
In sum, the originator of this thread likes to cast herself as "a racial healer," but in many instances merely stirs the racial pot.
I never have had the impression that JT thinks of herself as a "racial healer." But if you can call having a differing, non-PC opinion and having the nerve to state it "pot stirring" then I guess you're right on that.
In my Baptist church, that's considered very unChristian. Ooops, forgot. We don't worship the same way.
And you know very well that JT referred to differing *styles* of worship. That is not stating a negative, it is merely stating a fact. Do all black Baptists across the country act exactly the same way in church? Probably not. But overall, there is a difference. I don't see why noting that there is a difference is a bad thing.
AAACK! UBB
----and I can't type...
[ edited by bunnicula on Aug 17, 2001 01:46 AM ]
[ edited by bunnicula on Aug 17, 2001 01:48 AM ]
[ edited by bunnicula on Aug 17, 2001 01:50 AM ]
posted on August 17, 2001 02:38:34 AMjt:It's unheard of in the "white community." ...Did I say that? Please tell me that I did not.
Looking back over your posts in this thread, I see that you actually did not say that. I took Baduizm's quoting at face value. But it seems that in his zeal he garnished the bird a bit. I'm sorry, jt, for accepting it as a direct quote without looking back over the thread first.
conversation here.
. If you ever run across him again, or even have his number, why not invite HIM to your place for lunch? Might open a new door and friendship would develope.