posted on August 23, 2001 06:10:30 PM new
Our elementary school has emplemented a some new policies this year -- 1.} No more lunch recess! The students will eat lunch in their classrooms followed by an organized activity ranging from reading, art, computer or outdoor exercise. The children now only have one 10 minute recess in the afternoon. I for one want my children to have play time outdoors w/ fresh air! 2.} Behavior Policy - There are 4 colored cards { green, yellow, red and blue } in the classroom. Each day the children start out w/ a green card - if the children choose not to follow one of the classroom guidelines - they have to flip their card over to yellow { warning } and so on ..... This is another policy which I do not agree with --- singling out children. 3.} Children must now bring a water bottle to school if they want a drink -- children are not allowed to get up and get a drink from the drinking fountains. Thumbs down again -- anyone can sneak something bad into my child's water bottle { unlikely but you never know in this day and age! }
Any opinions????
posted on August 23, 2001 06:26:38 PM new
Do they make any attempt to explain the need or reasoning behind these changes? It sounds like a basic control theme. I have been in jails that treated you better than this sounds like it would be.
posted on August 23, 2001 06:34:24 PM new
Our elementary schools here in the southeast part of Michigan still give our kids a am and a pm recess. Kids who bring lunch eat in the classroom, kids who buy lunch eat in the cafeteria. But they still go out doors for a short period.
I for one like the water bottle idea in our area, this allows an unlimited amount of water for my child to drink, without having to disrupt the classroom for multiple drinks during the day. Some classrooms can get very hot, just found out our school now has air conditioned rooms which will help. I personally agree with the water bottle idea, another thought how many kids suck on the drinking fountain, or put their mouths on the drinking fountains. Sounds pretty grouse to me, I prefer my kids drink from water bottles. I send a cold one in my sons backpack everyday. Just my opinion here from Michigan.
posted on August 23, 2001 06:35:50 PM new
The "no more lunch recess" is described as the " Lunch and Learn" program - an exciting program to maximize learning times and help supervise all children during recess { if that's what they want to call it.
And the colored cards is under the heading of " Classroom Behavioral" policy.
They just stuck the " water bottle" rule along w/ 100 other rules.
What's funny is they expect me to sign this to give consent -- I think not!!!
Fluffy
It seems to me that if a child has a never ending supply of water, he/she would have to go to the bathroom a lot more, which would be more disruptive to the classroom than getting up to get a drink up water once in awhile.
[ edited by zeeesdreams on Aug 23, 2001 06:50 PM ]
posted on August 23, 2001 07:09:44 PM new
Having raised 5, I can tell you that I don't like #1 because all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy (or Jill a dull girl). The kids need outdoor exercise, but during my last kid's elementary school, they only had 15 minutes to eat and 15 minutes outside. That's not even enough time to eat.
I do agree with water bottles and I wish mine had the opportunity to bring them to class. I've had my kids taking antibiotics that required a lot of water, yet weren't allowed to get up to get the water during class. Needless to say, kidney infections followed.
No one is going to put anything into your child's water bottle without your child knowing! I'm sure the bottles are kept in back packs anyhow.
I also agree with the cards as this is a most fair policy. Singling misbehaved kids out has been in existence since schools began! We used to sit in the corner or in the cloak room or some teachers forced kids to wear dunce caps! This was as late as the late 50's. Talk about singling out! This way, with the cards, at least the child knows and understands what they did wrong and they're being held responsible to do the right thing and flip the card. Better this than corporal punishment that southern schools endorse. I'd rather have my kid flip a card than get beaten with a paddle!
Kids need rules and it's up to the parents to be sure they help enforce them. Without rules you have another Columbine in the working. (forgive me, but it's true)
posted on August 23, 2001 07:24:08 PM new
I, too, believe in rules, guidelines and consequences for children { which believe me, my children have plenty and are well behaved kids because of our rules. }
But I do not believe in singling children out -- I never have. Humiliation is not a proper form of discipline in my opinion.
I have wonderful children who I am extremely proud of, so I am not too worried that they will have to " turn their card over " very much { actually they will never have to turn their card over because I am not going to sign the waver and I am going to have a talk w/ my children's teachers. }
posted on August 23, 2001 07:35:14 PM new
Okay, let's look at it this way (no lecture, I promise).
By not signing the waiver, you are singling your own children out, because they won't have cards like the other children.
I honestly don't think by turning a card over, they are humiliating the kids - it's a heck of a lot better than dragging the child to the principal's office for a paddling.
That's real humiliation because it's done without calling the parents first and in front of witnesses and other kids. Wanna tackle that one? I did and thankfully my kids never had to be paddled, but I would never tell them they were being protected from it by me. That would have singled them out in the opposite direction.
have no idea why I clicked edit, but I did. Nothing was changed.
[ edited by JMHO2 on Aug 23, 2001 07:37 PM ]
posted on August 23, 2001 08:06:15 PM new
They like the water bottle rule -- but that is really no big deal to my husband and me -- we just thought it was silly because the idea was to have less classroom disruptions and we think there will be more now { kids going to the bathroom. }
They do not like studying during what's suppose to be lunch hour.
And we did not ask them about the color coded discipline yet.
As far as being singled out by not having the color cards - I'm pretty sure my kids wouldn't care because they are quite used to my husband and I sticking to what we believe in - actually quite controversial at times. They actually seem quite proud of us at times { by the little things they say and do :} }
posted on August 23, 2001 08:21:57 PM new
I find it interesting that we will accept conditions for our children that we would never accept in the work place for ourselves. And yet we view the children as needing a less structured and demanding enviroment. It is just that when it comes down to the actual details we don't have any trouble striping away their dignity in small steps.
We wonder why they don't show any respect for others when they are shown by example not to give individuals trust and dignity. They can learn to regard others in groups - such as all teachers - with suspicion and cynical generalities the same way they are treated.
What you SAY will make little difference in the face of what you DO.
posted on August 23, 2001 09:13:27 PM new
zeeesdreams, we already have most of what you describe at our school. No recess after 3rd grade. Your cards are our "keys". The cards are in the shape of keys, and if you pull one, you get a reprimand, pull two and eat a silent lunch, pull three get a time out, pull four and mom gets a call.
My daughter is in 6th grade. She gets 8 minutes in the hallway to eat a midmorning snack. That's all the recess they have gotten in 3 years. No outdoor time unless it's PE. No conversation except at lunch.
I thought it was harsh, but I'm just one mom, and my daughter would disown me if I made a fuss and singled her out.
posted on August 23, 2001 09:22:43 PM new
In regards to a never ending supply of liquid for my child to drink is not a problem, they have magnetic passes to use one at a time and are allowed to go to the restroom at their own leisure, as long as they are not caught getting into trouble. And so far my son has not abused the privelige(spelling??) to be able to go when he needs to. I have found during the winter months he does not require as much liquid as during warm months. And if you think about it the majority of the time my son is in school it is in the colder months anyways. So not that big of a deal in our area.
posted on August 23, 2001 09:35:15 PM new
As an aside about corporal punishment, just in case someone might find this warning useful in the future...
Our schools allow corporal punishment also. Luckily, we found out how our schools handle this, from another parent, before we had to face it...
The first time your child is facing a whupping, the school will call you on the telephone, tell you what the infraction was, and ask you to give permission to hit your child.
If you say "yes," they will not call you again. They take that first "yes," as a blanket "yes," and after that first permission they will hit your child whenever they want to, without even telling you that it's happened.
So, for anyone whose school system allows corporal punishment with permission, make sure you know first what you're giving permission for, for one instance or forever.
posted on August 23, 2001 09:42:54 PM new
Hi Victoria
I never finished the consequences of the color cards. They are:
Green - Good boys and girls
Yellow - Warning!
Red - Children are sent home { and they must bring their red cards w/ them for their parents to sign and if they forget their red cards when going back to school -- no recess until they bring it back. }
Blue - Conference w/ the principle to discuss a behavior plan.
Two of my kids are younger - 3rd and 4th grade - so they have not gotten to the " Don't embarrass me Mom" stage yet.
However, I also have a 10th grader and last year she was suspended off the bus.
I asked her what she had done and she said that she had not done anything wrong, but a bunch of kids around her were throwing some sticky stuff.
So I went to the transportation department { my daughter wanted me to also } and asked to see the video tape of the incident in question.
Well lo and behold my daughter had been telling the truth - had video taped evidence - and the suspension was lifted.
I think if children are used to their parents voicings their opinions { and stepping in when need be } - they will grow up not afraid to voice their own opinions w/ their peers { when they do not agree w/ something a person is doing. }
posted on August 23, 2001 10:27:03 PM new
I think that I'm a very conserative person, but I would NEVER want or allow a teacher to hit my child. When my son was in the 6th grade, his teacher went through a terrible and horrible family situation several months eariler. Unfortunately, she brought her merories and aftermath of the situation to work woth her.
From September to February these kid were emotionally belittled. They were told they weren't as good as the other students in the same school. They were told they were lazy, stupid and the like. They weren't not allowed to take school trips as others were. The teacher sometimes tipped their desks over and called them pigs. These kids were emotionally tourtured.
The issues I've listed here were brought to our attention by my son and confirmed by other parents and their children. This teacher "retired" in February and another teacher was brought in. After that the classroom returned to normal. What if that teacher had the right to corporally punish a child.
Although I usually back teachers, sometimes they have problems too!
posted on August 23, 2001 11:34:25 PM new
I'm just curious what happens if one of the kids refuses to change the colour of his/her card or refuses to leave the classroom when they are sent home...
Children need to be taught to respect authourity, but they also need to be taught to stand up for their rights when that authourity becomes abusive...
posted on August 24, 2001 05:13:27 AM new
I still remember when I was taken out in the hallway and severely beaten with what looked like a cricket bat for refusing to join a group prayer the first day at public school in New Bern, North Carolina. 6the grade. I was hurt bad enough I could not lay on my back I had to sleep on my stomach for a couple days. No one asked if they could do anything - they were 100% sure of their righteous authority with both the full power of the state and a straight pipeline to Jesus.
posted on August 24, 2001 07:04:18 AM new
I guess I'm missing something here. There's nothing wrong with the consequences of the cards. If your children are as pure and good as you say they are (of which I have no doubt, because mine were) the color of the card will always remain green. They will never be singled out for punishment providing the teacher isn't a sicko. If that turns out to be the case, your beef isn't with the cards, it's with the teacher and administration and that's where you need to stand up for your children's rights.
Third and fourth graders are the ones embarrassed by mom's even showing up in the classroom for a split second. I went through it 5 times. "Don't acknowledge me, don't look at me, don't talk to me and whatever you do, don't call my NAME!" This is typical 8 and 9 year old behavior especially from boys! Girls are different.
In the case of your 10th grader, you proved them wrong. You did the right thing. She didn't stand up to them, you did. That's correct. She had respect for authority.
When authority becomes abusive, then it's time for the child to rant and rave and parents to step in.
If all the children are being treated with respect YET disciplined, they will show more respect for authority.
My children are used to me standing up for what I believe is right and going to the mat for them. But they also know if they don't follow the rules, they're not doing themselves any favors. Rules are in place whereever we go and are meant to be followed.
So many of us don't like the traffic laws that are set before us or rules on the job or no smoking in restaurants (hey, it's my right too) - do we deliberately break the law or rule because we don't like it? Kids have to learn to live by rules too and not only the ones set down by mom or dad.
I knew my kids would never get paddled, so it never bothered me to sign the "rule" sheet. If zeeesdreams know her kids will never go beyond the green card, what's the big deal of signing the rules? If you have a problem with them, now is the time to take it to the school board. They have meetings open to parents.
posted on August 24, 2001 07:58:32 AM new
Good Morning
Yeager - I'm so sorry for your son's unfortunate situation in the 6th grade. It is downright shameful for a teacher { or any adult } to belittle children that way.
Gravid - No child should be beaten to a pulp in the name of God - what in the world were they thinking? I believe in God and I believe in treating people how I would like to be treated.
JMHO2 - It's not that I'm worried that my children will have to turn their cards over, it's that I don't believe the kids should have to be stuck w/ a " naughty " sign all day. Why can't they just be disciplined and that's the end of it unless they misbehave again. This all reminds me of a scarlet letter type of situation.
My kids have not reached the embarrassed my mom stage yet - they still wave to me every time I walk past their classrooms { I think my son is a mama's boy because he comes up and hugs me & says " I luv you mama " about 10 times a day. It's so cute!
I just found out about these new implements last night and thought I'd see what everybody thought.
posted on August 24, 2001 08:19:48 AM new
Hi zeeesdreams - Interesting thread. I always enjoy reading parents discussing what they feel are good and bad about schools and their rules.
When parents complain about the methods of discipline, I always want to ask what that parent would feel would be a 'fair' way for these children to be disciplined.
From what I've heard and read, teachers feel they're spending too much classroom time trying to get students to behave. When a teacher has up to 30 or more students and even just a few are 'acting out', how can they most effectively handle the problems?
One the 4 card issue...In corporate America, employees who are not living up to their employers expectations are usually put through a similar process. First time talked to (verbal warning), second time written warning, third time formal warning....then bye bye. In a childs case, a conference with the parent(s).
Would something like this be an acceptable solution to parents?
Or what would be?
posted on August 24, 2001 08:29:34 AM new
Zeees, how lucky you are to still have your boy come up and hug you in front of his peers. I remember my youngest son in 5th grade once ask me very quietly to leave the classroom before anyone arrived. I swear that boy had no mother until he was ready to get his learner's permit.
I agree that kids shouldn't be labeled for the day, but if that's the only way the teachers can get through to the misbehaving ones, that's a lot better than beatings and standing in a corner or out in the hallway (which my kids said their classmates had to do).
Linda_K is right. Corporate America does work discipline that way. (Yes, even employees are disciplined .. it never ends) They're called warnings, first comes a verbal, then a second verbal, then a written and then you're out. All have to be for the same infraction, but it's not always so. Maybe the cards are a good way to train children for the work force.
Give the school a call, set up a meeting with the board of ed about it. Maybe you can get some things changed.
posted on August 24, 2001 10:17:22 AM new
Hi Linda_K - If you asked me what disciplinary rules I would like to see in the High School -- that's easy -- the same procedure my school had -- 0 Hours. If you were talking in class or misbehaving somehow, the teacher would give you a 0 Hour { which meant you had to come to school an hour earlier the next day and sit in a classroom until school started. } One of the teachers I had quietly handed you a piece of paper w/ a big 0 on it - I still get a kick out of that! :}
As for elementary school, I think a sufficent scolding w/ a warning would do and then to the principals office for any more infractions.
However, I believe it all begins at home and w/ the breakdown of values today, it probably makes educators jobs more difficult.
I agree that children should be taught to respect authority and when I went to school kids did. I rarely saw any disruptions in my classes. But the teaches had an authority about them too -- the men always wore suits, ties, ect...
P.S. I graduated from a christian school in '84 { I'm not sure what is was like in a public school. }
posted on August 24, 2001 12:49:00 PM new
I don't see the color card system as embarassing or humiliating to the child. Merely reminders about behavior and expectations.
posted on August 24, 2001 02:45:18 PM new
I've had 4 kids through the elementary schools so far. The colored cards sound like a decent plan...better than sitting the child out in the hallway or facing the blackboard all day. Many schools today are grappling for ways to build respect for authority with the kids in the face of parents who undermine the schools at every turn. I've struggled with this myself...wanting my kids to respect the authority but also wanting to make sure the authority was in line. I've not always agreed with stuff the schools have done, but as long as my kids aren't in harms way, sometimes you just have to deal with it.
There have also been times that we have talked to the school, and not let our kids know.
The water bottles are also a good idea. The drinking fountains are breeding grounds for all types of bacteria etc. Kids walk by and touch them all over, put their mouths all over them etc. Bleah...
Not sure about the recess thing. Are they cutting out recess for all elementary grades? I think the kids in the lower grades, 3rd and below for sure, need some type of physical activity during the day to help them burn off some energy. I would be finding out why they are doing away with that.
As far as younger kids not caring when parents complain etc...I still remember my younger brother saying to my mom, "Please don't write any more notes to the Principle". My mother was very vocal and so was my dad when they felt any of us were being given the short end of the stick. My brother was in 2nd grade I think.
posted on August 24, 2001 05:45:48 PM new
The grade school where I went we weren't allowed to drink during the day except for 1 carton of milk at lunch. We were allowed to go to the bathroom only 2 times a day. Once in the morning when we got there, and once after lunch time. Any other time we were not allowed to go, no matter how bad we had to. I usually peed my clothes at least once or twice a week and as punishment the teacher would stand me in front of the class telling them all that I had wet my clothes again and allowed them to tease and taunt me. I remember she would laugh during this because she thought it was so funny.
As an adult I've had 3 surgeries on my bladder because of all the damage done having to hold it all those years on a daily bases. I still have problems. I am 25 and have to wear adult diapers because of what they did to me. The doctors are talking about making me wear a catheter for the rest of my life to make me more comfortable. My bladder muscles are too weak to hold urine. I hate teachers. All they do is hurt kids.
Take some advice. See a new doctor. There are other new surgeries that can correct your condition. A catheter for life opens you up to all kinds of infections, etc. It's not a cure. My friend has the same problem and she was operated on and it helped. There are also exercises you can do to help your bladder control. You stated you already had 3 surgeries, but evidently they didn't do anything for your weak bladder muscles.
There's something else going on with you and I don't think the condition was brought on by grade school. I think you had it when you went to school which is why you couldn't hold your urine for a few hours. We were only allowed to go twice a day also and none of my classmates ever had that problem that also didn't have it at home.
It's too bad your teacher humiliated you, but if I may ask, where were your parents? This is one situation where I would not sit still. It's illegal to do what that teacher did to you. It's called child abuse. Again, I think something else is going on with this. But only you can know for sure.
JMHO from what you wrote. Otherwise, I wouldn't have had one.
posted on August 24, 2001 07:21:13 PM new
I could go a couple hours. Adults can hold their bladder 3 to 4 hours, but these are kids, not adults. They're still growing. And a kid who's having to concentrate on holding their bladder isn't concentrating on learning. If a child has to go to the bathroom, he/she should be allowed to go. It's not healthy to make a child go all day with just 8 ounces of fluid, nor is it healthy to have them hold their bladder. I had to get on the bus around 7am and went until 4 pm with only 8 ounces of liquid, as was the other kids. You're supposed to give a kid 64 ounces of fluid a day (not including pop). When a child spends most of his/her time at school, then they get home and have to down 56 ounces in the 4 hours before bed? That's obsurd. Some of the kids were lucky and got to eat breakfast at home.
It's not so much weak, the muscles stay tense all the time, so when I go it doesn't empty. I had 2 surgeries where the dr stretched me open then 1 where he went in and cut a opening because my bladder opening kept growing together from the tension and removed a bunch of scar tissue. Now I only have half a bladder, so they can't operate anymore. But the tension came from having to hold my bladder all the time, stress from school, and I stayed dehydrated from not being able to drink fluids which made it worse. When I went to a different school where there was a toilet in the class I never had problems. Had good teachers and we drank a lot. The schools were run better. Then we moved to where the schools were run more like prisons with control freaks.
My dad complained about what the school and the teacher did, and the school had him arrested. He was so pissed he was there cussing out the teacher so he was arrested for disturbing the peace and trespassing. They had him jailed and barred off the property for trying to protect me. I hate schools.
posted on August 24, 2001 08:53:44 PM new
So are the teachers involved in the organized activities and recesses or are para professionals(teachers aides)? I used to work in a school and 80 percent of the paras were not professional. They didn't know how to work with a large group of kids. One I knew had certain children that she would yell at. Another would stare at the ceiling the whole time she was supposed to be watching the kids(and no there were no mirrors on that ceiling). This para also had a wad of gum in her mouth she popped the whole time while we were supervising kids and of course the kids weren't allowed gum and candy! A lot of the time the paras would be talking to each other instead of doing their jobs. The reason paras watch the kids is because teachers need and demand their breaks.
When the weather was bad and the kids had inside recess there were a lot more problem children. Children need to run and play and just be kids. Going outside for that fresh air and excercise sure helps.
posted on August 24, 2001 09:15:56 PM newGod help me, I know better, but.....
Ok, about these cards the kids have:
What exactly is the problem? You don't want your kid to be embarassed by being 'singled out', so how DO you want your kid punished when (gasp) they *choose* to break a rule? Call them aside (because, as you know, teachers have just tons of time to do that..BAH!), don't you think the other kids will KNOW what is going on?
Should the teacher (who, BTW, very likely had ZERO input about this new policy) punish the whole class? Doesn't seem you'd go along with that since you already found out what happens to the good kids who are sitting in the wrong place.
Also, why shouldn't a kid who has *choosen* to break a rule be called on the carpet in front of the other students? Didn't the kid KNOW what the rules were? Didn't that kid choose to break the rule? Didn't that kid know that their card would be flipped?
As for water bottles, I'm all for it. I'm lucky that I have a water foutain (AND a sink!! Whooo-Hoooo!!) in my room, and the kids have unlimited access to it (AFTER instruction time) and they know they have 2 bathroom breaks in the morning, and 2 in the afternoon (yes, it is a lot, but I've got little ones with little bladders). Of course, I live in New Mexico and it is VERY important that the kids get enough water.
Just a suggestion, why not *talk* to your kids teacher before you pull out the armor? Sure, it isn't near as much fun as getting all worked up and getting your kids all worked up, but it might actually help the situation.
