posted on August 24, 2001 09:30:10 PM new
Sorry pobo, the way you tell it, I can't buy that reason for your medical problems.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen but I'm saying you make it sound as if you had more problems than that - perhaps emotional.
Most adults can "hold it" for more than a few hours. I can go 6 or 7, sometimes more if I'm not drinking much. My kids have gone most of the day. The army doesn't allow their soldiers to go to the bathroom more than that in basic training. Nothing is wrong with it if you're healthy. If you're not healthy, you could have problems, such as bladder infections. Those if untreated cause the kinds of problems you're having today.
My dad complained about what the school and the teacher did, and the school had him arrested. He was so pissed he was there cussing out the teacher so he was arrested for disturbing the peace and trespassing. They had him jailed and barred off the property for trying to protect me. I hate schools.
Now if I went to the school and cussed out the teacher and who knows what else he did to get arrested, I'd expect to be barred from the school and arrested as well. Again, there must be more to the story. I'm sorry, this is too much.
You say you hate teachers and you hate schools. On another thread you said you have a little girl that takes a size 6/6X which means she's probably in Kindergarden or 1st grade. Please don't turn her against her teachers or school because of your hatred.
Now that you've taken this (along with me) totally off topic let's get back to the cards, water bottles, etc. Nothing was said about bathroom breaks from the original poster. Let's not get too personal
posted on August 24, 2001 11:18:40 PM new
Not sure where the Southern corporal punishment comment came from since public school here do not allow it. Private schools do, and if you do not sign the agreement then your child can not attend the school. They do call you first. Public school expel kids $o then they have to go to private $chool, where it hit$ the parent$ pocketbook and they finally wake up and do something about the situation.
I don't have the answers because I think only a parent should ever be allowed to administer corporal punishment to a child (only within very conservative boundries-never beating, never leaving a mark, never in anger). At the same time, I think discipline in schools is a huge problem. Perhaps because too many parents don't do anything to discipline their kids at all in the first place OR even with a report from the school.
We had a meal problem with private school. Kids ate at 10:30 AM and then were allowed nothing at all until arriving home after "after school care" which was about 6:30 pm. Kids can't go 8 hours in the day without food and be healthy and able to learn. So glad we can eat when we are hungry now.
No conversation except at lunch.
Thanks Victoria. You just relieved any very very minor worries that I had about socialization.
T
posted on August 25, 2001 05:28:38 AM new
The public schools in Florida have corporal punishment, at least until a few hours ago. Parents have to sign a release in the beginning of every year in order for their kids to go to school. It's always been this way, unless they recently changed the policies (yesterday). I went to school here, my husband went here, our 5 children went here. Now we have two grands going. So at least since 1950, it was allowed. In the 50's the parents didn't have to sign authorizations. In the 80's we did.
Here's a chart for Corporal Punishment. You can see only 27 states abolished it. Only 27 as of 1998! As you can see, all of the southern states still had it at that time. If someone can tell me they abolished it in Florida, I'd like to know when.
[http://www.aap.org/advocacy/corpchrt.htm]
Private schools do not have this, as far as I know. The only private schools I'm familiar with are Christian schools or Parochial schools and they have other forms of punishments.
Mealtimes are fair. Snack times are provided during the day. After school provides a snack time as well. If your after school program doesn't provide snack times, someone should request it.
Our children weren't allowed to speak to anyone except the teachers from the time they got on the bus in the morning until lunch. Then they couldn't speak until after they were done eating. They had to go outside to speak to friends. After that, it was no talking until the bus dropped them back off at the corner.
I was having lunch at the school one parent's day and had invited a friend of my children to share our table because his parents couldn't make it. He was very animated and excited to be talking to an adult (they were allowed to speak that day). A teacher came over to the table and told him to quiet down or he'd be punished. I was very upset with this and asked her to please leave the table, that I was the adult there and in charge of behavior at that time, and I didn't see anything wrong with a 7 year old child waving his arms while telling me a great story. She got extremely angry with me and we wound up going to the principal's office after lunch to discuss it. She was told she was wrong. Why have parents when the children can't talk to them?
[ edited by JMHO2 on Aug 25, 2001 05:31 AM ]
[ edited by JMHO2 on Aug 25, 2001 05:38 AM ]
posted on August 25, 2001 06:06:48 AM new
I went to Parochial school for 12 yrs. We wore uniforms. I didn't like it at the time, but I wish all of the schools would adopt the idea now. You always knew what you were going to wear.
The Nuns were allowed to punish us as they saw fit. In elementary school it might be standing in the hallway or getting your knuckles rapped with a ruler. If you were caught chewing gum, you wore it on the end of your nose until the class was over. They had paddles and they used them. In high school the punishment was demerits. Depending on how many you got, you stayed after school, had detention on weekends or got suspended. We were told if we didn't like the rules, we could go to public school.
Very few of the Catholic schools have Nuns anymore. My grandkids attend one with all lay teachers and it doesn't seem a whole lot different than the public school, just more expensive.
[ edited by december3 on Aug 25, 2001 06:07 AM ]
posted on August 25, 2001 10:46:18 AM new
Kept2much - The activities are going to be run by para-professionals { I never knew they changed the name from teacher's aid. } I was a teacher's aid when I was 15 during summer school and I certainly hope the " para-professionals" today have more training than I did.
I definetly am not happy w/ this new program as I too believe that children should have fresh air and exercise through out the day { not just 10 minutes in the afternoon. }
posted on August 25, 2001 11:22:01 AM new
They are still allowed to "paddle" kids in Florida, but there are restrictions. Witnesses must be present, and the person turning them in can not be the one to "paddle".
posted on August 25, 2001 12:01:51 PM new
Microbes, right. The witness can be the person who turned them in and the paddler is usually the principal or assistant. Turns my stomach, too.
As of 1998, that chart depicts all of the southern states that allow corporal punishment. The poster who said their southern state doesn't allow it must know they changed the law for their state (since 1998.)
I can't see why the children aren't allowed to have outdoor time during the day. The teachers also need a break away from them.
Maybe if those kids had little cards to turn over when they were "bad" we wouldn't have had the shootings. Being sarcastic here, because IMO, the shootings began in the home with improper upbringing, too busy parents, etc.
posted on August 25, 2001 12:58:37 PM new
Yeah another topic - But I had a male teacher who loved to find reasons to paddle the boys because it gave him a hard on - he was gay - you could see him building up to a paddling because he would get on someones case and build up an arguement and you knew what was coming. One day he started in telling me what a bad apple I was and I could see the paddling coming and I did tell him straight out that if he took me out in the hall and paddled me I had guns and would find him after school and shoot his butt dead. His face said he believed me. Good thing 'cause I meant it.
I had enough of being beaten and if some of the kids who did shootings did it BECAUSE of beatings instead of this idea they did not get enough dicipline it would not surprise me.
Discipline has nothing to do with taking sadistic pleasure at humiliating someone.
I was about 14 and thought it sick to see someone all excited and breathing ragged because they got to hit someone.
[ edited by gravid on Aug 25, 2001 01:01 PM ]
posted on August 25, 2001 01:02:50 PM new
There's a difference in a paddling, and a beating. That's why Florida requires witnesses. And yes, someone that "takes pleasure" in it, shouldn't be doing it.
posted on August 25, 2001 01:08:01 PM new
Discipline should began and end at HOME without beatings, paddlings, humiliation, etc. There are other ways to discipline children.
A child not disciplined at home will not listen in school. They will not respect authority if they have no respect for parents.
Teachers are not to be expected to be all to our children. They are there to teach.
gravid, a horrifying experience for you, I'm sure. I agree that a lot of these problems stem from kids being abused at home and abuse does include beatings. A solid whack or two on the backside never hurt anyone. A beating has, both emotionally and physically.
The smart little rich kids at Columbine were not beaten that we were told. They were ignored by their parents. I know I would be aware if my kids were building bombs, etc in their rooms or our garage. My husband and I both worked, raised 5 children to adulthood and none of them would think of doing anyone else harm. We have guns in the house too, always have had them. Taught the children from an early age to respect them and how to use them and why.
I still say cards are not the answer, schools are not the answer and teachers shouldn't have to teach morality to our kids. That's where we, as parents, come in.
[ edited by JMHO2 on Aug 25, 2001 01:08 PM ]
posted on August 25, 2001 01:12:58 PM new
Life is so different now. Schools used to be a fun place, a place of learning. Now you have to worry about a shooting by another student.
posted on August 25, 2001 01:27:00 PM new
Well, another restriction in Florida is that if there is a visable mark after 24 hours, it abuse. The principle leaves a bruise, he goes to jail.
posted on August 25, 2001 01:54:54 PM new
I am simply blown away at the idea that corporal punishment is still allowed in public schools. I'd love to see which states allow it....anyone have a link for that?
posted on August 25, 2001 02:26:58 PM new
I called a teacher to double check and I am in error. It is allowed in MS but only with parental consent.
Each parent decides at the beginning of the school year what form of punishment will be used should it be needed. You get to elect corporal punishment, Saturday detention (this is middle school), extra assignments, others as varies by grade and school. There are a series of lesser steps before more drastic measures are used.
Sorry for that confusion.
Interestingly enough, this teacher said only 4 of her students parents "opted out" in favor of Saturday detention.
T
posted on August 25, 2001 04:32:36 PM new
My parents would give me a normal flat hand on bottom spanking very rarely when I was young I don't think it happened after I was about 7. I had to give them a pretty hard time to get one. Something involving danger to myself or valuable property.
I do know some families just have no discipline - verbal or physical at all and I don't know what a teacher would do with someone like that. It would be like getting a dog to watch that had been kept in a cage like in a zoo and never trained or socialized. It would not react at all as you expect a dog to act.
On the other hand I saw a family that the little children were required to stand silently at attention for the slightest imaigined wrong and beaten with a stick about the head if they dropped their stance or spoke. I was in the process of reporting these people to the social workers when they packed up and moved to some rural area of TN. They had just gotten a child back from the hospital who had drunk drain cleaner. To this day I doubt he drank it by mistake. I think it was forced on him as a punishment.
The Father was a ex-Marine and all he could talk about was his past life in the service and he had this sick idea he could treat small children with military discipline. His wife was terrified of him. I have to think he was taking his resentments from his failed military service out on the weakest people he could find. What would a teacher do with those kids? And would a teacher realize that ANY attention drawn to the children's parents about them would result in terrible punishments at home?
posted on August 25, 2001 06:34:25 PM newInterestingly enough, this teacher said only 4 of her students parents "opted out" in favor of Saturday detention.
I guess I should have mentioned, parents can "opt out" in Florida (at least here).
I don't think most parents here let the school use paddling on grade kids (I'm not even sure if the local school board lets grade schools.), but Teenagers? My guess is it like your numbers.
I think sometimes the deputy on duty at the high school is the "witness".
[ edited by Microbes on Aug 25, 2001 06:37 PM ]
posted on August 25, 2001 06:49:07 PM new
I'll tell you one better, our deputies will go to peoples houses, and hold down an unruly teenager while the parents paddle them. Same rules, no bruises. (there are a few other rules, what you can use... A leather belt has to be wide, nothing that will cut, etc.)
Local judges won't do anything about it if the teenager complains, unless the deputy says it was a "beating" as opposed to a "paddling".
posted on August 25, 2001 08:05:59 PM new
zeeesdreams-The paras in my school had one day of training about 3 months after school started!
You would be smart to show up unannounced to see what happens when the paras are in charge and ask your child lots of questions! The first two years I worked there my coworkers were fantastic, the second two years I worked there some of my coworkers should have been fired!
If you go back to page 1 of this thread, I posted the link. 27 states outlawed corporal punishment, the rest did not. All of the southern states are included in the "did not."
I had to sign a paper stating the school could use corporal punishment before my children were allowed to attend. I drew a big black X through that part, changed the wording to NOT and returned the papers to the school, after I made copies. A law suit would have ensued if they had gone against my will.
This was just for elementary school, grades K-5. The middle school students and the high school students were not involved with paddling. They were suspended instead.
Microbes, where in the world do you live? Deputies go to the houses to hold the kids down? I would venture to say I wouldn't live in that town very long.
[ edited by JMHO2 on Aug 25, 2001 08:23 PM ]
posted on August 25, 2001 08:41:46 PM new
In Florida. Do you think the law would say the schools could paddle a kid, but the parents can't???? If a 15 year old that's bigger than his momma won't do what they are told, yes the deputies will come help her convince the 15 year old year old that they aren't the boss.
They are also very quick to charge people that leave bruises, abraisions, etc. That's why some parents will call the cops... It's a fine line what is a paddling or whipping, or what's abuse. According to the local judge (and I havn't heard of him being overturned on this), if there isn't any physical evidence 24 hrs later, it's not abuse. If there are bruises, abrasions, etc, 24 hrs latter, it is.
There's been enough court cases around here, the parents, and kids (at least the teenagers) both know the "rules".
posted on August 25, 2001 08:47:23 PM new
JMHO2:
Thanks, I should have checked to see if you had provided a link - sorry about that.
I'm just amazed by this - that schools would even use corporal punishment at schools, but I'm way more amazed at the number of parents who must be giving permission! We have after school and Saturday detentions in our public schools, seems like a much better idea.
posted on August 26, 2001 07:33:05 AM new
Microbes
Do you think the law would say the schools could paddle a kid, but the parents can't????
Yes it does. Call your local HRS office and ask them what the law is on child beatings by parents vs corporal punishment in the school systems. They'll tell you what you need to know.
Florida is a big state. I live in south Florida. We have state laws here against parents hitting their kids. We have state laws here against parents verbally abusing their kids. All a kid has to do is call 911 and the parent is taken to jail, the kid to foster care, no matter how bad the kid is.
If a deputy ever came to my house to hold my kid down while I beat him or her, that deputy would be in jail along with me. Show me a case where this happened and the deputy got off scott free and I'll show you a case of pay-offs. You stated also that a deputy will come to help convince a kid - they do through talking, not contributing to the beating.
Again call your local HRS office and question the ethics of your town's deputies. It'll stop real quick.
Where in Florida do you live that they allow this type of police brutality in someone's home against someone's unruly kid. Not a very good way to get them to respect the law, is it?
I wouldn't. I'd laugh all the way to the judge.
Argh yes it is amazing that this is still in the school system, but no more amazing than Microbe's local deputies contributing to child abuse. *snicker*
posted on August 26, 2001 03:00:14 PM newAll a kid has to do is call 911 and the parent is taken to jail, the kid to foster care, no matter how bad the kid is.
Well, we have a local judge that doesn't quite agree with that. He may wind up overturned, and Human Services have butted heads with the judge a few times.
Had one case on the front page of the little local paper for days. A woman had slapped her teenage daughter for being mouthy in the local WalMart. Lots of witnesses, cops called, Woman arrested, kid taken to the doctor, then to a foster home.
When it came to court, the judge asked the doctor what he had found when he examined the kid... Doctor said that four hours after the kid was slapped, he could find NO marks, and no physical evidence of damage. 5 people that saw the woman slap her daughter testified. The judge said it wasn't abuse, ordered Human Services to return the girl to her home, and dismissed the charges.
In cases where there are marks left, this judge gets very tough with the parents.
Everybody in town was talking about this for days. The Judge is up for re-election soon, I guess we will find out if people approve or not.
posted on August 26, 2001 03:37:02 PM new
I'll never understand how anyone who advocates hitting kids doesn't understand how children get the idea that violence is ok.
Any adult who has to hit a kid to get obedience has lost the battle imho.
You hit a kid, you send a message. That message is: the one who is physically stronger is right. Our society advocates hitting children, then wonders why violence in kids is so pervasive.
The argument is that there's a difference between spanking and beating, between discipline and abuse.
But let's say you're a 150 pound person. Would you know those differences if they were being done to you by someone who weighed 450 pounds and was twice as tall as you?
There's enough danger in the world for kids. It's a pity they can't know that at least at home and in school, they won't be hurt.
posted on August 26, 2001 05:34:23 PM new
Sadie - Children don't learn that violence is right. But they do learn that it works.
If you have not learned that yourself then you are in denial about how government and society work. The only thing that keeps people paying high taxes and not going to Cuba on vacation and not running red lights
or dumping toxic waste is the threat by armed force of being jailed.
It was a huge liberation for me when I realized that I no longer had to be hit and humiliated because I was willing to respond to their violence in full measure. Once they realized they were facing someone who would hunt them down on the street and in their home and return the full measure of pain and violence BACK to them they had no guts at all. A real bunch of cowards if they can't
inflict pain and humiliation from full safety.
posted on August 26, 2001 06:24:07 PM new
Gravid, you make a good point about whether violence is right or whether it works. And I agree that unfortunately, some people do need the threat of punishment to behave responsibly toward society and their community.
You also make a good point about cowards. And couldn't it be said that parents who hit children prior to the child being the same size as the parent are also cowards?
I just think there are too many negative things learned when parents hit kids. The worst lesson of all is that people who love you will physically hurt you in the name of "what's best for you." I just don't buy it. If it's wrong to hit an adult when you disagree, then it's wrong to hit a child.
Self defense is different, and of course I believe that a person should fight off an attacker. I may not believe in violence as a learning tool, but I'm afraid I'm not saintly enough to turn the other cheek if someone attacks me.
posted on August 26, 2001 07:35:27 PM new
It's not nice but the main thrust of violence as a tool is not to use it but to manipulate people's behavior with fear of it.
If the government had to constantly USE force to get people to comply it would simply be too expensive. But we see the newspapers in the month before tax time running stories to remind the citizens they had better comply or ELSE.
