posted on August 30, 2001 12:59:08 PM new
"The reason why I asked arttsupplies, is I notice that men are usually the ones..."
"An answer to my question could be... No, I do not care to answer the question I posed. Not the above. Just seems to me people should be able to answer a question if they pose it.
Since when? I'm not sure how I feel about legalizing prostitution, which is why I posed the question. Why is my answer so important to you?
posted on August 30, 2001 01:19:51 PM newartsupplies: why use your employer's time at all? Use your lunch hour (as I am doing now & gotta run in a minute or two), or post before & after work.
posted on August 30, 2001 01:26:07 PM new"Sharks swim in these waters, ya know?"
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones arttsupplies.....I haven't met any here yet
My point was that when a question is posed, it doesn't necessarily mean the person asking it has a formed opinion yet. I learn 100% from what other people say and 0% from I what I say myself, if that helps.
posted on August 30, 2001 01:41:59 PM newMy point was that when a question is posed, it doesn't necessarily mean the person asking it has a formed opinion yet. I learn 100% from what other people say and 0% from I what I say myself, if that helps.
I understand
I have some strong feelings about alot of things and the quality of posts here make me sure that if I'm going to say anything I would want to be able to back it up and articulate it, hopefully, well enough not to seem like some doofus... <--- the real me!
edited to explain the use of the term doofus.
[ edited by arttsupplies on Aug 30, 2001 01:44 PM ]
posted on August 30, 2001 02:33:17 PM new"I have some strong feelings about alot of things and the quality of posts here make me sure that if I'm going to say anything I would want to be able to back it up and articulate it, hopefully, well enough not to seem like some doofus... <--- the real me!"
arttsupplies, I think everyone feels that way sometimes and nobody here (that I know of ) is immune from doofushood. If everyone is going along with what you say and they're all on "your" side, you don't learn anything. It's the opposing views that make you think. I've had tons of people not agree with me but those are the people I've learned the most from. I've either come away with stronger convictions, or I've been made to look inside a bit deeper. As far as your feelings about a certain subject.....if you feel that way, who can ask you to back it up? Sometimes I have no idea why I feel a certain way, but I do gain insight from listening to others.
posted on August 30, 2001 02:59:29 PM new
Sex only with/for love is actually a fairly new development. A species will do what it needs to do to continue or increase its population. There are also times in a person's life when there just isn't room for love or a relationship - I'm thinking of things like grad school, recently divorced or widowed, etc. I don't think people in these situations should be compelled by society to put their sexuality on hold until Mr/Ms Right comes along.
Sex with love is delightful, but the zipless f*** has its good points too.
posted on August 30, 2001 04:50:25 PM new
Hmmmmm.... It's a tough issue. First off, just in case anybody doesn't know, I'm a guy [which automatically disqualifies me from having an opinion, I realize]. Second, I have never personally visited a prostitute [although I have seen them walking the street]. Just so you knwo where I'm coming from....
Personally, I think that pornography should be made illegal. Not because it is immoral, but because of the way it objectifies women and portrays them in a false light. Women who pose in pornagraphic magazines or star in pornographic movies are not "real" [in the sense that the pictures are altered, airbrushed, etc., and the actreses are just that -- actresses]. Pornography conditions men to believe that "all" women should look and act according to an unrealistic ideal. And this can be extremely dangerous when that "ideal" involves any type of brutality or other abuse. The problem with pornography is that there is no actual interaction between the man and the object of his desires, only what is falsely shown, and therefore the man can become unable to perceive the difference between fiction and reality.
With prostitution, on the other hand, we are talking consensual sex between two adults [at least in theory]. What the man sees is what he gets, and he is also interracting with an actual person instead of just a idealized image in a magazine or on film. And [again, in theory], the fact that the woman is charging for sex shouldn't matter so long as the man is willing to pay for it. So, in theory, I don't think there is anything wrong with prostitution.
Should it be legalized, though? Well, unfortunately, real life isn't the same as theory. The big problem, I think, is that prostitution is typically run by men, not women. And quite often the women are pressured into having sex, whether by actual threats of force or by subtler means such as drug addiction. But what if government were to run it instead of pimps? What if women were put in charge? And what if the only women who engaged in prostitution actually did so because they enjoyed sex and wanted to make money? At that point, it would basically be the same as stripping and exotic dancing which, although some people frown on the morality of them, are not illegal.
Other countries have legalized prostitution, such as the Netherlands. I have no idea what the women who work as prostitues there think about it. Do they still feel abused, taken advantage of, and left without choices? If so, then I'd say legalized prostitution is a bad idea. But if they feel liberated and actually like their work, then I think that legalization is something that would be worth trying here as well.
Men will always want to have sex. It's a natural urge and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it. But women are entitled to just as much respect and freedom as men, and no woman should be forced to have sex against her will. Period. But if legalization could ensure that it was always done voluntarily with full knowledge and consent, I say go for it!
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on August 31, 2001 09:52:52 AM new
Prostitution Male & Female, should be legalized. Reason, Health & Taxes.
Shucks, I might Invest in stock, for a fast sex drive-thru service for male & female on their lunch hour. This should give new meaning to " Afternoon Delight".
It would give the stock market a the punch to rise.
posted on September 1, 2001 02:08:20 AM new
I believe sex was only intended as an intimate act of expression of love between a man and woman, and morally, within the bond of marriage.
I believe that any other use of sex shortchanges the emotional needs of both people. To accept empty meaningless sex as, valid under any circumstance, in my opinion, is to fail to accept the emotional disfunction of the individuals engaging in it.
Also, to take a position of protecting the women and the men who patronize them from the consequences of their own actions is to put ones self in the position of an "enabler". Where there is no consequence, there will be no healing.
If you really want to improve a prostitute's life, tell a male friend that it's wrong. Give her a hundred bucks and tell her you aren't having sex with her because you respect her as a worthy human being. Offer her a well paying respectable job. Marry her and make it your life goal to show her what true love and dignity are.
Ignore it completely if you like, but don't try to lamely console your own social conscience by condoning legalization. It accomplishes nothing.
JMHO
T
posted on September 1, 2001 02:19:34 AM new"Personally, I think that pornography should be made illegal. Not because it is immoral, but because of the way it objectifies women and portrays them in a false light."
Barry, you have just earned a HUGE amount of my respect. I just wanted you to know how grateful that I am to see a man standing up for women and voicing this position. It is so rare. As a woman, thank you.
T
posted on September 1, 2001 06:59:58 AM new
Making prostitution, a human rights crime against women legal is unconscionable. It's simply criminal and immoral abuse.
Before you decide to legalize this use of women, I suggest that you read this speech delivered to the University of Michigan Law School.
posted on September 1, 2001 10:58:13 AM new
Gravid,
In all honestly, however, I don't think it's actually that easy. I think there are often too many underlying issues of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse involved.
T
[ edited by jt on Sep 1, 2001 05:59 PM ]
posted on September 1, 2001 05:58:35 PM new
Katie, An American Girl
Katie is 10. Though probably a little too old to play with Barbies, she still likes them. Sometime she can sit for hours just arranging their house, dressing them, and thinking of what her life will be like when she grows up. She thinks that a house like Barbie’s would be nice. Ken will go to work and Barbie will have a romantic dinner set when he returns complete with the little silk flowers in the center of the table and the big brown plastic roast turkey. Sometimes Barbie stands on the carpet pushing a stroller when Ken isn’t home.
Katie has two brothers. They are 11 and 13. On this day, when she came to sit and look at Barbie and dream her dreams, she found two of them naked in bed in a suggestive pose. Knowing that Josh, her younger brother was most likely the culprit, after all he was still mad at her about telling mom that he got in trouble on the school bus, she marched to his room and yelled at him. He called her "stupid" and slammed his door, so she just went back and dressed them again.
A little while later Katie hears the door slam and knows that her dad is home from work. She goes down to see if dinner is ready and to tell him hello. Mom is still in the kitchen making dinner so Katie sits down on the sofa next to Dad where he has found Wednesday night Pre-Game Highlights. Katie says, "Hi". Dad says, "Hi Katie, How’s my little girl?" He takes of his shoes. "Find Dad." He leans back and props up in a pillow. "Can you get daddy a beer, sweetie?" Katie does then she goes back to the kitchen to help mom set the table.
It’s mostly like that. Dad is usually at work of watching football on tv. He has a collection of games on tape so when there isn’t one on tv, he watches those. They are on a shelf over the tv with the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Collection. Her brothers are always getting in trouble for bothering dad’s tapes and he yells at them. He doesn’t seem to have much time for Katie anymore.
Matt, Katie’s older brother, play on the Junior High Football team so last Friday the whole family went to see his first game. Katie sat by dad. Though not exactly his "little girl" anymore, she still likes to sit next him. It makes her feel secure. When Mom, went to the concession stand to get them all popcorn, Fred, their neighbor who also has a boy on the team, punched Dad in the ribs, pointed to the line of cheerleaders, and said, "I wish that blonde there on the end would jump a little higher." Dad chuckled. Fred chuckled. The team scored. The blonde jumped. The crowd cheered. Mom returned with the popcorn.
Katie is 13. Today was a bad day at school. She didn’t make the cheerleader team and she failed a science test. Then when dad got home, he and mom had a fight. Someone in his office is getting married and is having a bachelor party. Katie overheats mom say it’s at a dance club and she didn’t want him to go. He got mad and called her a "#*!@". He said what did she think he was going to cheat on her or something? It’s just a harmless guys night out, for God’s sake.
Katie has been aware of pornography for a while now. Dad has several magazines in his night stand next to the bed. Her brothers are always sneaking in and looking at them and Katie has looked at them once too. She was shocked at what she saw, women, some just posed naked in pretty thing, others tied up or dressed like cats in collars. It was like they were animals or something.
Katie knows dad is going to yell and mom is going to cry, so she quietly goes to her room. Sitting on her bed she thinks, "It’s really not that bad. At least my parents are still together. Her friend Jeanie’s parents just got a divorce. Her dad was having an affair. "No, it can’t be that bad", Katie thinks.
Katie is 14 but she looks much younger. She is still slim and flat chested, unlike some of the other girls in her class. Katie’s friend Jeanie is very shapely for her age and she dresses a bit provocatively too. Katie’s mom would not have let her wear those clothes even if she had wanted to. When they go somewhere together, Katie might as well be invisible. The boys always pay attention to Jeanie but ignore Katie. Even grown men pay attention to Jeanie. It makes Katie uncomfortable when they are together.
Katie has just finished studying science. She closes her book and leans back on her pillow. She thinks about her parents argument at dinner. Mom has joined a weight loss support group and was late getting home to prepare dinner. Mom isn’t really overweight but she is getting that "middle age mom spread". Dad had been angry that dinner wasn’t ready on time and he hated the low calorie frozen meals that mom served. He had yelled at her and told her that maybe if she got "off her ass and cooked and cleaned and did some work around the house" then maybe she wouldn’t need "that fat women’s group". He chastised her because his favorite shirt was dirty this morning and he hadn’t been able to wear it to an important meeting.
Dropping her science book on the floor and rearranging her other papers, Katie thought about school today. She was doing better in science. Katie had a boyfriend, sort of, at least he sat by her most days at lunch. Things were looking up for Katie. She turned the paper over in her hand and looked at it. It said, "Just Wait Campaign". They had given it to her in Sex Ed, a brochure promoting abstinence. Jeanie had had sex with several boys already and had told Katie all about the details. Katie hadn’t even had a real opportunity yet. She remembered the teacher saying that birth control was available in the nurses station.
Katie is 17. It’s 2 am. She is in her room crying. She and Chris who is a Freshman in College have been together for 2 years. Today they broke up after Katie found out that Chris slept with a prostitute on Spring Break. He told her he loved her, that it didn’t mean anything. She hears dad coming up the stairs and knows he has been downstairs watching the Playboy Channel. He always waits until everyone is in bed. It’s the only reason he is ever up this late. A soft knock on her door, it opens. "What’s wrong with my little girl, Katie? I thought I heard you crying." "Nothing dad. I wasn’t crying. Maybe I am coming down with the sniffles. I was just studying. Promise." "Ok, sweetie, well night then." The door closes behind him.
Katie feels dizzy and sick to her stomach. She hopes she isn’t pregnant. "Next year", she thinks, "next year I will graduate and be on my own and everything will be different then." She turns out the light and dreams of Barbie and Ken and those little silk flowers on the table and Barbie pushing the baby buggy…but in her dream she is Barbie.
Dedicated to all the Katies and dads in the world.
posted on September 2, 2001 12:04:59 AM new
I'm actually kind of surprised at how many people think that sex should only be between a legally married man and woman.
I guess the rest of us should just curl up and die sexually. Or get married just so we can have societally sanctioned sex. I sometimes wonder about married people who think theirs is the only way.
Just about any relationship is some kind of a trade. Prostitution just makes it clear what that trade is.
posted on September 2, 2001 12:18:04 AM new
If you think any sex outside of marriage is immoral, there's an easy answer - don't do it. Other people might not feel that sex outside of marriage is immoral.
Anytime there's a demand for something, if it's suppliable, it's going to be supplied. You could go throughout the whole world right now, give every prostitute a $300,000k a year corporate job, and tomorrow there will be a whole new batch, looking to supply what there's a demand for. Prostitution is an entrenched part of human history - it's no accident it's called "The World's Oldest Profession," and we probably all know prostitution was part of society in biblical times.
When something that people are doing, and will continue to do, is illegal, the first, and most superficial effect, is that people become criminals. But it's more than just a label. Along with that is the danger, predation, violence, etc. that accompanies illegal activities. When was the last time you saw Seagram's bottlers shooting it in a Chicago garage with Budweiser bottlers, for example? Yet when Prohibition was in force, the liquor trade was completely different. It wasn't alcohol that led to the Valentine's Day Massacre, it was the involvement of gangsters in an illegal activity. I'd submit it's not prostitution in and of itself that makes the women involved subject to the predations of pimps, it's the illegality of the act that makes the women vulnerable. When you're involved in something illegal, and you're preyed upon, the usual avenues of protection aren't available to you.
Well, if those prostitutes don't want to be preyed upon, they can just choose not to be prostitutes! But that viewpoint completely ignores that, danger or not, if a demand is suppliable, there will always be someone offering to supply it.
posted on September 2, 2001 11:01:44 PM new
For alot of reasons, I don't think much of the idea of legalized prostitution. But......it certainly would jazz up Career Day in high schools!
posted on September 3, 2001 06:17:49 PM new
I say...legalize it. It would be better for society as a whole.
FALLACY: IT IS IMMORALL
Maybe in your religon or morals, not in others. Contrary to belief, there are other people in this world who are agnostic and/or have their own beliefs, morals and mores.
FALLACY: IT IS DEGRADING/ABUSE TO WOMEN
Only because it is illegal and considered their last hope and not of choice. They are "outside" normal society. Maybe to make less degrading the man should meet the woman at a bar, buy her a few drinks, take her to a movie then dinner then to a hotel. As a gesture of his appreciation, leave a $100 on the dresser on his way home.
Without it being legal, these women have nowhere to turn when they are beaten and abused. And their deaths are brushed aside because "she was only another prostitute", not a "taxpayer." Give them legal status and legal recourse. To not do it is the true abuse..
posted on September 3, 2001 06:48:11 PM newIn the best of all possible worlds, no man could entice any woman with money or power to make her a prostitute.
In the best of all possible worlds, gorgeous, sexy women would be willing to have sex with me without having to be paid...
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
) is immune from doofushood. If everyone is going along with what you say and they're all on "your" side, you don't learn anything. It's the opposing views that make you think. I've had tons of people not agree with me but those are the people I've learned the most from. I've either come away with stronger convictions, or I've been made to look inside a bit deeper. As far as your feelings about a certain subject.....if you feel that way, who can ask you to back it up? Sometimes I have no idea why I feel a certain way, but I do gain insight from listening to others. 
