posted on September 4, 2001 04:12:46 AM newsadie999 The compromise would be decriminalizing prositution. I agree, and think it would lessen crime on the streets, be healthier for all involved. Frankly, I can't see why men/women would want to socialize with some of the non legal prostitutes? Yuck! Consenting couples? Ok by me. Marriage? ...not for everyone...
[ edited by Empires on Sep 4, 2001 04:13 AM ]
posted on September 4, 2001 06:04:45 AM new
Okay - maybe marriage isn't for everyone, but I still don't see paying to have sex can be a good thing at all.
Like I said earlier, I'm only 33, and I should have said the youngest fuddy dud, not the oldest.
I was raised to respect others, whether they be a man or woman. I don't see how two people can respect each other in this situation.
I also find it noteworthy that I haven't read, or maybe I missed it, a single man or woman on this thread that have been directly involved with prostitution. Why is that? Is it because those that claim it should be legalized really wouldn't do it if given the opportunity because they too think it's wrong?
I'd like to pose another question to everyone on this board who thinks it should be legalized:
Would you pay to have sex with a prostitute if it were to become legal?
posted on September 4, 2001 06:14:01 AM new
"Would you pay to have sex with a prostitute if it were to become legal?"
Probably not. But I'm female, and it's easy enough to get it free. I might if I were older, richer, busier. Actually, there's something kind intriguing about the idea of just calling someone up, having them do me, and then having them leave.
Kind of like ordering take-out.
Hopefully, you're not "hungry" again in twenty minutes.
posted on September 4, 2001 06:23:47 AM new
Hjw and Godzillatemple's back to back "perfect world" comments remind me of an old joke that goes something like this -
A good man, who was, unfortunately, very ugly and without charm, died. In the afterlife, he was placed with the most beautiful woman imaginable, and told - "You've lived a good life. As your reward, you'll spend eternity with this woman. She'll have sex with you whenever you want to, cater to your every whim."
The man, surprised and very happy, said to the woman, "I've often wondered about heaven, but I never thought it would be like this!"
The woman looked at him in disgust and said "For you this is heaven."
posted on September 4, 2001 06:59:54 AM newProstitution is an abhorent crime against women and I believe that it should be illegal everywhere
The above was written by Helen, but I think it accurately reflects the views of many here. Here's my question, for anybody who care to answer:
What, exactly, is it about prostitution that makes it an "abhorent crime against women"? Is it the fact that women are having sex outside the bonds of marriage with people that they don't love? Well, as has been pointed out, some women apparently enjoy having sex, even [or especially] so-called "casual" sex with no emotional attachments.
Is it the fact that some [not all, mind you] women are "forced" or otherwise "coerced" into prostitution, whether by actual force, threats of force, drug addiction, abject poverty, or what have you? If so, I think the whole point of legalization would be to remove the coercion factors involved by making it above-board and profitable for the women [as opposed to having it be profitable only for their "pimps"]. As long as women are able to do it of their own free will, why is it a "crime" against them? Or are you saying that no woman would EVER become a prostitute -- even a legal one -- of their own free will? Are you sure about that? Can you speak for all women?
Is it the fact that money is involved, thereby reducing something that is sacred to a mere commodity? If so, and if the woman is acting of her own free will, who is committing the "crime "? And against whom is it being perpetrated? Is it a crime for a man to pay a woman for something she wouldn't give away for free, or is it a crime for a woman to charge for something she wouldn't otherwise give away for free?
Personally, I would agree that prostitution, as it currently exists in this country, does indeed constitute "an abhorent crime against women" in many cases. But that's because so many prostitutes have been forced or otherwise coerced into doing it, and because of its illegality it is inherently unhealthy, unsafe, and degrading. If, however, it were legalized and maintained like any other service industry [i.e. with health and safety standards], I think the only remaining objections would be from those who believe it is "morally wrong", period.
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 4, 2001 07:26:07 AM new
I agree with you, Barry.
There are plenty of things that people do to each other, or have done, that are intimate, without love being involved. As intimate as sex? Well, maybe not, but pretty close.
Take your average proctologist. A fair amount of his career is going to involve doing something pretty dern intimate to strangers. But no one is going to say that being a doctor is a degrading profession. Why did this person become a proctologist? Because he likes sticking his finger up strangers' butts? Maybe, but maybe not. Maybe he's in it for the money.
Take any number of jobs in the medical profession - The lady who does mammograms, the ob-gyn, the nurses in the gastro-intestinal labs, etc., etc. They're all doing things to strangers, sometimes things you wouldn't let your lover do to you, intimate, personal things. And they don't love you. They want your money.
And we go, and pay someone to do these intimate things to us. Not for sexual gratification, but for other physical reasons; because we think that participating in these activities will enhance the quality of our life.
posted on September 4, 2001 07:55:01 AM newFlynn: I also find it noteworthy that I haven't read, or maybe I missed it, a single man or woman on this thread that have been directly involved with prostitution. Why is that? Is it because those that claim it should be legalized really wouldn't do it if given the opportunity because they too think it's wrong?
No, I think it's simply because prostitution is currently illegal. Aside from the fact that most posters here are probably fine, upstanding members of their community who wouldn't dream of breaking the law, you don't really expect somebody to admit they broke the law here in a public forum, do you?
Donny: Well, of course you agree with me! We are both men, after all....
Your joke reminded me of another one, BTW:
An overweight, rather unattractive man goes to his local Priest/Minister/Rabbi [PMR, for short] and explains how miserable he is and how he has tried and tried to lose weight with no success. The PMR tells him not to worry, and to just make sure he is home that evening at 7:00 sharp.
The guy is a bit mystified, but agrees. That night, at 7:00 sharp, the doorbell rings. He opens the door to see the most beautiful, sexy, desirable, etc., woman in his congregation, wearing very tight spandex and running shoes. As he gapes at her in surprise, she says "the PMR said to tell you that if you can catch me, you can have me," and with that she takes off at a sprint.
Well, the guy takes off after her [of course], but only gets a few hundred feet before becoming totally winded and is forced to limp back home, dejected.
The next night, at 7:00 sharp, the doorbell rings again, and once again the same woman is there. She repeats the message and darts away, and he follows. This time he makes it a little farther before giving up.
Well, this goes on night after night for over a month. Each night the guy is able to run a little farther, and each night he is able to get just a little closer to his goal. And, in the mean time, he manages to drop 80 pounds.
Finally, after one near miss, he feels that tonight is the night; as the 7:00 hour approaches, he is ready. He has his running shoes on, he's all stretched and warmed up, and this time he will claim his prize. Sure enough, at the stroke of 7 the doorbell rings. He leaps to his feet and flings open the door, whereupon he sees an overweight and rather unattractive female member of his congregation who says "the PMR said to tell you that if I can catch you, I can have you..."
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 4, 2001 08:13:39 AM new
Godzillatemple
In the back of my mind, I am afraid that I am being narrow minded on this subject but it just seems to me that women are being exploited because of poverty.
The morality issue about sex without marriage or with marriage or without the bonds of love is personal and not my concern.
I am also concerned about the aids epidemic.
I understand that the women will be tested if it is legalized but will every man who wants this service first be tested?
It just seems so unfair to me and in my thinking approaches the level of a crime to humanity.
posted on September 4, 2001 08:43:20 AM newHjw: it just seems to me that women are being exploited because of poverty
Well that assumes that [if prostitution were legalized], no woman would do it because she (a) enjoyed doing it or (b) thought it was a better living than some other form of work.
If having sex were an unpleasant, demeaning experience in general, and if a woman would resort to getting paid for sex only because of extreme poverty and because she had no other way to make a living, you would probably be right. Unfortunately, not being a woman, I can't say whether there really are women who actually enjoy sex enough to think it would be a pleasant, fulfilling job, or whether the whole thing is just a pipe dream cooked up by a bunch of horny men. But I do know that there are plenty of women out there who enjoy casual sex and don't look at it as something horrible or demeaning.
Contrary to my strict religious upbringing, I don't see sex as being intrinsically evil or as something that must be done within the bounds of marriage in order to not be demeaning and unpleasant. If you throw money into the situation and make sex a commodity, I'm not sure how that elevates it to a horrendous crime against women, as long as the women are not forced into it.
Rape is a horrible, ugly, thing.
Sexual slavery [i.e., prostitution where the woman is not free to quit] is just as bad.
Consensual sex between two adults can be a wonderful thing, on the other hand.
Consensual sex between two adults where one party pays the other for the priviledge? I would say there's nothing wrong with that. You, however, might argue that no such thing is possible [i.e., that there's no way it would truly be "consensual" in this case, and that the woman was somehow "forced" into it, even if only by the economics involved]. And you may very well be right on that account. As I said earlier, I'm not a woman and can't speak to any woman's real motivations when it comes to having sex.
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 4, 2001 09:40:47 AM new
"The morality issue about sex without marriage or with marriage or without the bonds of love is personal and not my concern. "
To me, the above statement shows exactly the way our society is becoming about everything in life. It's the attitude that "If it doesn't affect me personally it's not my problem", well I beg to differ. I think it does affect all of us in one way or another. Maybe not with this issue, but these laid back attitudes about sex lead to the same attitudes about violence, children's language, etc. What are we teaching our children? That it's perfectly okay to screw someone for money? Just because we're horny? That it's okay to not respect that elderly person who is having trouble opening the door because of his/her walker? Why shouldn't they look at us and tell us to go screw ourselves at this point? If we're not going to teach them respect, why teach them anything good? What's the point? Why stop with respect? Maybe we should tell our children it's perfectly okay to lie or steal or kill maybe? Man, I'm beginning to sound more like my parent's everyday. When did they get so smart?
I am by no means the most moral person in the world, but I try to do unto others as others would do unto me, and I try to do what's right, based on the way I was raised. I was raised to believe that something as "special" as sex is to be shared in a loving way, not something to be paid for.
I have no opinion on the criminal aspect of prostitution whatsoever, I don't care if it's legal or not, I just think it's plain wrong, to me it's a plainly moral issue, period.
I think this country is running out of people with morals, and this is a true shame and will spell the death of the world, in my humble opinion anyway.
posted on September 4, 2001 09:53:44 AM new
Well I am curious as to whether any of the women here who are in favor of legalized prostitution would take advantage of the legalized status. In other words, how many of you women would pay a man to have sex with you?
posted on September 4, 2001 09:53:50 AM newflynn Sex with consent is an act of love, the examples you show below are not. That is the difference. We all got here the same way, bottom line. Two people cared enough to make it happen.
flynn's post: "To me, the above statement shows exactly the way our society is becoming about everything in life. It's the attitude that "If it doesn't affect me personally it's not my problem", well I beg to differ. I think it does affect all of us in one way or another. Maybe not with this issue, but these laid back attitudes about sex lead to the same attitudes about violence, children's language, etc. What are we teaching our children? That it's perfectly okay to screw someone for money? Just because we're horny? That it's okay to not respect that elderly person who is having trouble opening the door because of his/her walker? Why shouldn't they look at us and tell us to go screw ourselves at this point? If we're not going to teach them respect, why teach them anything good? What's the point? Why stop with respect? Maybe we should tell our children it's perfectly okay to lie or steal or kill maybe? Man, I'm beginning to sound more like my parent's everyday. When did they get so smart?"
I'd like to ask the women a question, please." Why are so many women drawn to prostitution? What lack's in society that draws women to the job?
[ edited by Empires on Sep 4, 2001 09:56 AM ]
posted on September 4, 2001 09:56:56 AM newSex with consent is an act of love
That's baloney. Sex with consent is just sex. Don't have to love the person. Anybody here ever have sex with someone they didn't love? I did. My first husband.
posted on September 4, 2001 09:58:32 AM newahem If it's true confession time, I must admit there were others besides my 1st husband, but I never had to pay for it.
posted on September 4, 2001 09:59:06 AM new
"Sex with consent is an act of love, the examples you show below are not. That is the difference. We all got here the same way, bottom line. Two people cared enough to make it happen."
Are you sure about above statement Empires? Did we ALL come to be based on love? Sadly enough, I suspect not all of us did. Some of us may be because of the very subject we're discussing. A product of business. Isn't that a sad thought? It is to me. Come to think of it, cloning is another subject and some people that will be chatting in the next century may also be because of something other than love, pure business.
BTW, I am not a product of prostitution, I am a product of love, even though those two people no longer love each other, they did when they conceived me.
While we're at it, if we're confessing, I was quite permiscuous in my teenage years, and am so glad I didn't turn to prostitution. I suspect that if my self esteem hadn't improved I might have fallen prey to that way of life. When you're a teenager with low self esteem you'd pretty much do whatever it took to make yourself feel pretty or better. Unfortunately, I rather doubt that prostitutes feel better about themselves, whether it was a legal business or illegal.
[ edited by flynn on Sep 4, 2001 10:02 AM ]
posted on September 4, 2001 09:59:47 AM new
HJw said:
"The morality issue about sex without marriage or with marriage or without the bonds of love is personal and not my concern. "
And flynn replied:
"To me, the above statement shows exactly the way our society is becoming about everything in life. It's the attitude that "If it doesn't affect me personally it's not my problem",
I think that's a wrong characterization of Hjw's statement. It's not a matter of dismissing something because "it's not my problem," I think it's a matter of recognizing that we shouldn't impose our own personal morality on others.
So what if one person sees sex for money as a moral issue, while another person doesn't? Now we rush off and ascribe to the second person, on the basis of this one difference, all sorts of behaviors that start at not opening doors for elderly people, up to stealing and killing?
People can be moral people, and good people, without sharing, exactly, the same views. It is possible to have thoughtfully, and with good conscience, formulated a personal morality that one strives to adhere to that doesn't match someone else's, someone else who has given equal thought to the matter, with the same good conscience.
Personally, I don't see anything immoral, in itself, in prostituion. And, I will open the door for an elderly person with a walker. However, I am not going to pay that elderly person with the walker to have sex with me. Even I draw the line somewhere.
posted on September 4, 2001 10:07:50 AM new
Donny:
I may have overstated or possibly not quite stated my view correctly.
Basically for me the bottom line is this. I believe that if we view sex so casually that we will treat the other things I discussed just as casually. If your statement is true that one person's morality is different from another's than why shouldn't it be okay for someone to tell a child it's perfectly okay to steal if they honestly believe it's morally okay? What's the difference then?
posted on September 4, 2001 10:11:20 AM newFlynn: I think this country is running out of people with morals, and this is a true shame and will spell the death of the world, in my humble opinion anyway
Whose morals are we talking about here? I was raised in a very strict religion that taught, among other things, that smoking, drinking, pre-marital [and extra-marital] sex and homosexuality are all immoral acts. If you don't agree that each of these things is immoral, can I then say that you don't have any morals?
There's a difference between having a different set of morals than somebody else and having no morals at all. You could think that drinking alcohol is perfectly fine, at least in moderation, and still be a good, "moral" person. You might despise cigarettes and think they are a health hazard, but not feel that they are "sinful", and still be a good, moral person. You could firmly believe that homosexuality is biological in nature, not a matter of choice, and still be kind to your neighbors and follow the Golden Rule.
Similarly, just because some people don't feel that extra-marital sex and/or prostitution violates their personal moral code doesn't mean that they don't HAVE a moral code at all.
And, just for the record, I wouldn't pay an eldery person to have sex with me, either....
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 4, 2001 10:15:21 AM new
Okay, maybe morality isn't even the issue. Is knowing something right or wrong a moral issue? I don't know. I know that stealing is wrong, I know that killing is wrong. Based on what? Based on what my parent's and society taught me. I was also taught that sex for money is wrong. Based on the same people, my parents and society. Now I'm supposed to change everything I was taught about sex for money? It's not really wrong now? I was taught all wrong? So is stealing okay now, what about killing?
I guess I just don't get it. How can something be wrong one day, and be okay the next?
Point well taken, I understand where you're coming from now.
BUT I still am questioning the fact that if society tells us at one point in history that something is wrong, immoral, illegal, call it whatever you want, then how it can it then becom right, moral and legal now?
Also, if prostitution can become right, moral and legal, then why can't anything else that was once thought to be wrong, immoral or illegal, then become right, moral and legal?
posted on September 4, 2001 10:32:04 AM new
flynn - "Now I'm supposed to change everything I was taught...."
Absolutely NOT! Your own personal stance on morality is what makes you YOU.
My grandmother used to tell me - if you follow the Golden Rule, read the 10 Commandments and do your best, you'll end up on the road picked especially for you.
posted on September 4, 2001 10:32:58 AM newFlynn: Well, when you're talking about killing and stealing, you're talking about doing something to another person against their will. And that's true regardless of how you were raised. And as long as prostitution involves women having sex against their will [whether or not they are paid for it], I suspect that just about everybody here would agree that it is just plain wrong as well.
I dunno, Flynn. Sometimes we have to look past the way we were raised and make decisions based on our own experiences. If you feel that something is wrong, you should have a reason for feeling that way other than simply "because it is" or "because that's the way I was raised". There are a lot of good, valid arguments for and against prostitution, many of which have been raised in this thread. Do you think prostitution is wrong because it is degrading to women in general the way pornography is? Do you think it is wrong because, regardless of what people may say, there's no way sex for money can truly be considered "consenual"? Do you think it is wrong because it undermines the fabric of society and will lead to less stable families? If so, then why not say so? Not everybody here will agree with your reasons, but I think we can all respect the fact that you have them. But you should at least have some reasons other than simply "because".
Just my two bits...
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by Empires on Sep 4, 2001 04:13 AM ]