posted on September 11, 2001 06:38:18 PM new
We tried that route the *first* time terrorists attacked us in NY a few years ago. Remember? Extradited a couple. Had a long, drawn out trial. Slapped a couple of wrists. We certainly didn't act in a reactionary manner & strike out at the terrorists.
And look at what it got us. I agree that we need to get along peaceably with the rest of the world. But I also agree with Teddy Roosevelt: "Walk softly and carry a big stick." It's about time we applied the stick.
posted on September 11, 2001 06:38:55 PM new
bunnicula, recent history would suggest then that we'll sentence entire countries to life terms in prison...
posted on September 11, 2001 06:43:15 PM new
plsmith you are exactly right, as we do see what does go on overseas, particularly in the middle east, I don't think the media or history classes, discussions or whatever focus a whole lot on what the root of the problem is.
We, always think of the U.S. as unimpenetrable, well we found out differently today.
posted on September 11, 2001 06:44:53 PM new
Teddy Roosevelt recommended a big stick back in the days when all it was was a big stick. Big sticks now are armed with nuclear warheads. I'll never acquiesce to the mindset which thinks that's a viable solution...
posted on September 11, 2001 06:54:41 PM new
The Romans had a policy on this that worked for years for them. If a city-state allowed a Roman citizen to come to harm within it's walls they would go in and depopulate the land - cut doen every tree and pull down every wall - sow the fields with salt so you could not grow anything and then when people when by and asked what happened there they would know what happened if you killed a Roman.
posted on September 11, 2001 06:57:39 PM new
gravid, they also had a policy of forbidding the name of a criminal to be spoken... no glory in crime, so to speak. I rather like that idea, but, whatever happened to The Roman Empire?
posted on September 11, 2001 07:00:53 PM new
I guess we better not get upset over this today and lash out or someone might really try to hurt us. Is that what I am hearing?
Exacly how much worse do you think that will be when it happens than today?
posted on September 11, 2001 07:02:16 PM new
We only execute our "own" terrorists. We won't execute foreign terrorists because it might cause an international "incident".
Other than that I agree with Bunnicula, and we don't need to use nuclear warheads either. It's time.
posted on September 11, 2001 07:04:21 PM new
plsmith - There is some dispute about the root causes. The turned from defending themselves to hiring mercs and they had a senate as contentious as the current US congress. Their morals went down the tubes and they were a big fat target.
Perhaps any political organization has a limited life before corruption makes it falter.
posted on September 11, 2001 07:10:42 PM newplsmith: just because we have nuclear weapons doesn't mean we have to use them. We can just as easily devastate an enemy without them.
This is not going to go away if we say pretty please, however. On the contrary, if we don't take a firm stand now we will see an escalating number of attacks against the US & its citizens both here and abroad. What am I saying?!? We have already seen this pattern.
edited to fix UBB
[ edited by bunnicula on Sep 11, 2001 07:17 PM ]
posted on September 11, 2001 07:14:03 PM new
After watching the news all days, and reading the posts here, I want to put my 2¢ in.
I deplore the thought that innocent civillians may be harmed of any nationality. However, this country canot allow such tragic actions to go unanswered. The answer must be terrible and definite. Without such response, more of the same as we have seen today would be invited.
Civillians were killed in New York. That does not justify killing other civillians, But the sad fact is that civillians die in war. THe war must be fought, and it is extremely vital that it be won by the 'humane' side. Think of the consequences if it is won by an 'inhumane' side.
I am not advocating striking out blindly at civillians, I am advocating ridding the world of terrorists with the belief and knowledge that it is the right thing to do and pay the price that has to be paid. ON BOTH SIDES.
posted on September 11, 2001 07:15:07 PM new
gravid, I don't really want to imagine what could be worse than direct attacks on the financial and military centers of this country.
posted on September 11, 2001 07:21:50 PM new
Don't need nukes....firebombs, napalm, and a few other goodies would work just as well. "Always strike harder then your enemy, my sensi always said,"and he will fall before your will.". Time to make them fall.
posted on September 11, 2001 07:36:07 PM new
I think we're an ignorant populace. We get our "news" from TIME-Warner-AOL, whose primary interests are NOT "news"... We refuse (or simply haven't the time) to research events and not accept the "news" feed... yes, we most certainly will be told that passenger jets have demolished the World Trade Center buildings, but we will have to dig out for ourselves the why and how of those acts. Why, for instance, did our x-ray machines in at least three separate U.S. airports fail to detect the presence of knives and more? Or are we supposing that "trusted" ground personnel at United and American Airlines were stashing these items onboard the involved aircraft? Do you know who fills these "trusted" positions? Out here on the west coast, x-ray machine observers at the airports work for minimum wage. No better than a job at the local all-night convenience store, except one is not likely to be held up at gunpoint for a sixpack of beer doing it.
If you wished to infiltrate a major U.S. air carrier, which job would you take? Begin to notice that our front line of "defense" at airports is staffed by the lowest-paid personnel. Ask why only if you're willing to pay higher prices to fly...
posted on September 11, 2001 07:40:59 PM new
Airport security on domestic flights has been getting lax. I noticed this the last time I put someone on a flight. The people checking the carry-ons hardly glanced at the screen.
posted on September 11, 2001 07:43:57 PM new
A news report this evening on NBC had a man (can't remember his name) who has criticised airport security for years. His company has evn put it to the test & found that 75% of the time his agents were easily able to smuggle weapons and weapon parts onto planes, or go into areas that are supposed to be restricted with little or no attention being paid to them. As he put it, our airports are like laundromats--they are easy to get into and out of.
You know, it would surely be wonderful if everyone in the world was able to pull down top money for every single job big or small. But that's not the way it all works. I, too have worked for miniumum wage (& when *I* started on minimum wage it was $1.66 per hour)--strangely enough I had enough pride in myself to do the job to the best of my ability. Low pay doesn't equal "slacker."
posted on September 11, 2001 07:48:49 PM new
december3, they SLEEP at the screen out here.
I'm not at all opposed to disbanding or rendering ineffectual Osama bin-Laden's forces, KatyD, et al. What I'm trying to convey is that the elimination of him or any other individual will not, in the long run, prevent acts similar to those we witnessed today. These acts aren't tied to a man, they're tied to a belief... I'd humbly suggest we figure out a way to understand and co-exist with this belief, which we do not now -- as a nation -- comprehend.
Edited to add: bunnicula, when I started out, minimum wage was $1.65 an hour, and I worked my tail off. "Slackers" are a phenomenon better addressed in another thread -- you want to start it or shall I?
posted on September 11, 2001 08:18:02 PM new
People here think that terrorists, and those who support terrorists, should have that 'terror' delivered back to them. Well, people dancing in the streets in the Middle East feel the same way, and they think that today that's happened.
Why do these people hate us? What have we done to them?? Innocents have been killed!!
Well, innocents being killed is nothing new, it's just new here.
posted on September 11, 2001 09:09:00 PM new
Has anyone heard more about the rumor that a terrorist on the plane had ties to Bin Laden and to a group in Florida? I heard this a little while ago, but didn't hear the whole thing. I know there has to be some connections here in the US.
posted on September 11, 2001 09:19:57 PM new
Chococake, I've also heard that report. There are probably as many terrorists living here as there are in Afganistan.
Decisive and punative harm is not the answer.
Causing horrible harm to innocent people of another country such as we have witnessed here today is not justified in order to remove or retaliate aganist a small group of terrorists. That is morally wrong.
Furthermore, if this terrorist group is successfully removed, another such group will take it's place because the underlying problem has not been solved. Instead, we need to find and correct the cause of the fear and hatred which perpetrates terrorist violence.
posted on September 11, 2001 09:32:14 PM new
Finding the "cause" of why they hate "us" or anyone else is not the answer. Anything and anyone that "they" believe do not think or act or believe as "they" do is cause enough in their book. Jealousy? Of what? Difference of religion? I thought Allah was God, but with a different name. Power? They have it in the form of oil and the rest of the world needs that oil so that is power in itself.
The only answer is to show what they did will not bring us down, and to hunt them one by one, however long it takes. But that still doesnt solve the children, who are being taught and trained by them, to carry on their beliefs. There is no end.
posted on September 11, 2001 09:52:52 PM new
there will not be an end so long as there are oppression and oppressors in the world community, and there must always be each until a mutually beneficial system of trade offs can be emplaced. it is only tribalism on a grand scale and it is the nature of man. until real respect exists amongst the tribes no peace is possible. today is only an expression; a minor voice from the dark.
posted on September 11, 2001 09:56:47 PM new
The sad facts:
1. The radical Islamic movements do raise up their children to be suicide bombers
2. It is not likely that we will ever know all the countries and persons who actually aided in this terrorist attack
3.We have the most powerful weaponary in the world, have been attacked on our own soil, and we have no certain enemy to go after
4. Until the radical Midddle Eastern factions are exterminated completely, life will be HELL in America, as we will have to have our guard up at all times, which will have huge psych and economic costs.
The economic earthquake from this has not yet really begun. Being on a war footing all the time drains an economy ruthlessly.
posted on September 11, 2001 09:59:13 PM new
plsmith, I wont sleep well. I dont see an end. Do you? Bombing the hell out of them wont make it stop or go away. Learning why they hate us wont make it go away. What is the answer? I dont know. But I know I wont sleep well.
posted on September 12, 2001 04:24:19 AM new
It's not as simple as radical fundamentalists raising their children to be suicide bombers. Grown people, educated people, join the cause. For a reason.
And the reason is more than "Anything and anyone that "they" believe do not think or act or believe as "they" do is cause enough in their book."
The reason is that they believe that we have engaged in and/or supported terroristic acts against them. And they have cause to believe that.
I just saw a short CNN interview with a female Palestinian spokesperson. It started out fine, the spokeswoman said some words, our hearts go out to the victims of terrorism, etc. etc. Then the CNN woman played the clip of the celebrating Palestinians that we've all seen, and challenged the spokeswoman, pretty much said - How can you say Palestine is grieving with us when here's the clip of your own people celebrating?
The Palestinian spokeswoman insisted that that was an isolated incident, mostly children, and that most people didn't feel that way. She got quite irate about what she saw as a momentary incident that was being used to mischaracterize all Palestinians. And then she really began to get frustrated, reiterating that, as victims of terrorism themselves, they understood and condemned the terrorism perpetrated against the U.S.
Then the CNN woman and the Palestinian spokeswoman got in a little pissing match, who had more victims of terrorism? The Palestinian spokeswoman said 11 Palestinians died last night, ambulances couldn't get around, they've been living under siege conditions for years. The CNN woman didn't want to hear it, she said there will probably be more American victims from this one incident than the total of Palestinian victims through the years.
Last evening, CNN did a short interview with some Arab newspaperman. He started out with how terrible it was, he condemned it, sympathies, etc. And then he said that many people in the Middle East do perceive that America has perpetrated its own terrorism.
CNN didn't want to hear it, they wrapped that up quick. And when this interview was repeated later in the evening, the Arab newspaperman's later remarks were edited out, the repeated version of the interview ended right after the sympathies part.
We don't want to hear, apparently, what a lot of people are trying to tell us. Now we're all het up, and we want "retaliation." But a large part of the world sees what happened to the U.S. as "retaliation."
posted on September 12, 2001 04:59:25 AM newbut nuking is not the answer.
I don't think we don't need to use use nukes to take care of this, enough carpet bombs will take care of it.
Targeting one Arab nation is an attack upon them all... a sentiment being echoed by NATO nations in regard to us. Do you -- do any of us -- really want global war?
Yes. How many times do they have to hit the USA before YOU are willing to fight?
If you want to know if I'll "put my money where my mouth is", I spent 14 years in the Army until they denied me reinlistment due to what I thought was a minor medical problem. If it comes to that, I intend to find out if I can get back in.
but I think simply striking out against the suspected culprits is not enough....
Once it gets past "suspected", we either capture, or kill them. Nothing less. When this kind of thing happens, you need to choise sides. I KNOW what side I'm on. Do you?
posted on September 12, 2001 05:37:06 AM new
So what's your point, Donny? Frankly, at this point in time, I don't give a damn what a lot of people are trying to tell us.evidently from your inferences, "muslim people". I don't know who did this, whether Palestinians, Syrians, Iraquis, Iranians, heck, even Cubans. There is no justification absolutely none!for it. So suggesting to us that there may be a reason for this is ridiculous. This was not a REASONABLE act. It was murder, NOT political, and CIVILIZED societies need to stand up to anyone or any country who uses murder of innocent civilians to further their political agenda. There is no credibility to be gained there. No excuses.
KatyD
[ edited by KatyD on Sep 12, 2001 05:39 AM ]
posted on September 12, 2001 05:49:44 AM new
Yes, I know I'm going to get run out of town on a rail for saying this, and no one wants to hear it.
REASONABLE! CIVILIZED! Everythings in caps, and we're calling for all the civilized people to join us!
"CIVILIZED societies need to stand up to anyone or any country who uses murder of innocent civilians to further their political agenda."
Some people believe that we are a society that has used murder of innocent civilians to further our own political agenda. Now we are ANGRY! And we haven't given a flip before, and still don't now, that people have been ANGRY! at us for some time, for pretty much the same reasons that we're ANGRY now!
The problems in the Middle East, not only have we happily gone along not paying much attention to them, or getting worked up about it, but, more than that, we've facilitated them. Parents have lost their children, children become orphans, and these people see that we're involved, even if we don't.
It doesn't matter how much you bold it, or how many caps you use, or how much National fervor you work up. People have been dying for a long time... over there. And we've been perfectly fine with that.. until people starting dying here. Then it's an outrage.
posted on September 12, 2001 06:10:57 AM new
Truly, Donny, I don't know what you are talking about.
The problems in the Middle East, not only have we happily gone along not paying much attention to them, or getting worked up about it, but, more than that, we've facilitated them. Parents have lost their children, children become orphans, and these people see that we're involved, even if we don't.
Okay, I guess you are saying that we bomb school busses full of children and then dance in the streets. I'm not sure how you are saying that we're involved but I can pretty much damn guarantee you that the thousands of people yesterday WERE NOT INVOLVED. We are talking about political and religious (most probably) fanatics that are willing to engage in wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians to further their political agenda, and you are trying to look for some justification or tell us it's OUR fault? For you to infer that we "brought this upon ourselves" is the height of ignorance and insensitivity. And yes, WE ARE A CIVILIZED NATION. We don't dance in the street to celebrate our own citizen's fanatic behavior. We execute them, or have you forgotten Timothy McVeigh? So don't talk about double standards. Don't bother responding. Just go watch the news and try to think how you would feel if it was one of YOUR family members slaughtered by this senseless inexcusableact. Do ya think you'd feel like explaining it away to politics? And be grateful that you live in a country where you have the right to express to express your opinions without fear of reprisals. There are too many where that is not possible, but I suppose you will tell us that is OUR FAULT too?
I'm walking away from this. You have the right to your opinions, but right now I'm not interested in your viewpoint. Have a nice day.
