posted on September 12, 2001 06:30:22 AM new
I'm saying that we support Middle Eastern Dictators and Israeli terrorists. Except when we hear about it on the news, it's always "Israeli soldiers" who fight with "Palestinian terrorists." I'm saying the U.S. has never met a dictator it hasn't liked, as long as they can do for us what we want.
I'm saying that Palestinian parents whose innocent 12 year old children die see that, while they were killed by Israelis, the Israelis are funded by us.
I'm saying that before we all grab our guns and run out, mouths foaming, to shoot "whoever," that maybe it would be better if we stopped and wondered, for a moment, if this isn't a case of our chickens coming home to roost.
It's oh so easy to declare that we're the only civilized people. And it's oh so easy to declare that when we get angry at our country being bombed, it's because WE ARE A CIVILIZED NATION. And when other people have already been angry because their country is bombed, it's because they're religious fanatics.
I have watched the news... and I'm watching what other people are saying, before CNN cuts them off abruptly, and edits them out neatly later.
posted on September 12, 2001 06:51:11 AM new
I should have walked away. That's your view, Donny and you're welcome to it.
I happen to support Israel 100%. Not that I've ever said so here. But you brought it up first. I certainly don't agree with your term "Israeli terrorists" as I fail to see how a nation that aggressively and militarily attempts to defend it's own against fanatics, are "terrorists". Oh yes, Donny, the Israeli Army targets Palestinian schools and school busses on a daily basis, and then the Israeli citzens dance in the street. And let's not forget all the Israeli children that are schooled in Suicide Bombing 101. Uh huh. But how in the world anything you just said in your last post has to do with what some un-named terrorists did yesterday to OUR NATION, and OUR CITIZENS is beyond me. Unless of course you are condoning those actions in reprisals for what you perceive to be injustices against the Palestinians. Of course maybe that IS what you are trying to say. And of course you have that right.
posted on September 12, 2001 07:04:43 AM new
I have to say that I stand with Donny too.
The actions of yesterday are heinous crimes, and must be punished by those found to be guilty of them.
But to get at the root cause of how this could happen, it take more than a superficial assessment of "Who has done this wrong to America?" It needs to have the questions of "Why?" asked and answered.
How could such a hatred be developed that it would seem rational to kill thousands of Americans going about their daily business? The conflict in the Middle East is seemingly intractible, irresolvable, and America is seen as supporting absolutely Israel, no matter what it does.
People who have lost loved ones there, or had their lives destroyed rightly bear a grudge. The ensuing terrorist act was not justice.
If we want justice, we are going to have to examine our own indifference to the fates of Palestinians and to try to understand the grievances of the Islamic groups, as well as seek retaliation against those who committed this crime and disrupt the support and supply lines to terrorist groups.
posted on September 12, 2001 07:18:36 AM newDonny: I agree with you--and I don't agree with you.
I have never supported Israel and its treatment of Palestinians. People will harangue us ad infinitum about how settlers displaced the Indian but seem to find nothing wrong what has occured in Israel. People will mourn that although those Indians tried to fight back they couldn't match the superior weaponry & armies of the European settlers, but fail to see that the same applies to the Palestineans. And I have never thought we should be supporting Israel (but then we have not been alone in this--the UK, France, etc. have done so as well).
And I do not say, just grab our guns and wipe out Middle Easterns willy-nilly and without thought.
BUT: there is no excuse for the cowardly attack on the US yesterday. I believe that we should find out *who* is responsible and wipe them off the face of the earth. War has been declared. The attacks against us & our people have been escalating over the past few years and if we just sit on our hands and whine after this & do nothing in retaliation, it *will* happen again.
posted on September 12, 2001 07:25:17 AM new
I don't intend to be back, but the hystrionics here are compelling and so are the acts which took place yesterday.
posted on September 12, 2001 07:39:40 AM new
I do not think that this country can continue to act with disdain for the beliefs or the foundations of other countries in the world and expect that there will not be resentment and reactions born of that. This person, if he is responsible for yesterday, is a creation of the United States. He did not "inherit money from someplace", he was given his money by our Central Intelligence Agency in support of his 'terrorist' actions against the soviet invasion of Afganistan. His training camps in Taliban have recently been given a $43 million grant of support by this country under the guise of support against drug production.
But the hatred of this country goes far beyond those obvious hypocrisies.
This man took issue against the Saudi King Fahd in 1989 for allowing U.S. troops into Saudi Arabia. He was ultimately hounded out of that country by the Saudis who he accused of having sold the Islamic holiest places to the United States. In Islam, to muslims Saudi Arabia is the holiest land in the world as it is where their prophet Mohammed lived and died. It is against Islamic law for outsiders to enter both Mecca and Medina, yet there are U.S. troops allowed there, or has been.
These are religious issues, and for muslims there are no other more important issues. Yet this country treats these things as unimportant if they stand in the way of our interests. Why is it that only our interests in the world are worthy?
Somebody above said that these sorts of things will not stop so long as there are oppressors and oppressed in the world. In this global community with it's technology so available for misuse no country can continue to act in ways which offend the roots and foundation of another and expect that there will not be a significant reaction. In other times this attack would have been impossible. Today it is not only possible but done.
As people like to say in forums everywhere, "It's not about you"--how does this country presume to believe that what it does is rightious because it is in our interest while at the same time believing and telling the other countries of the world that what is in their interest is of no concern to us?
posted on September 12, 2001 07:43:55 AM new
Hi Bunnicula, I guess I agree with you and don't agree with you too.
I think it's going to take more than finding out who's responsible. It's going to take finding out who's responsible for creating who's responsible... And I think part of that responsibility of creation is going to lie with us.
It's not just this one guy who blames the U.S. It's a lot of people. There's a deep, widespread resentment, even hatred, against the U.S. in the Middle East.
The attack on the embassies, the Cole, the WTC, the Pentagon. They're horrifying. But, not to be dismissive about it, these attacks are not the kind of warfare designed to defeat a nation. I don't think wiping us off the face of the earth is the objective. The objective is to make a big noise, make a big fire, get a big body count per incident... get attention. Make us stop for a moment and think - What's going on?
If we get rid of this one guy, the conditions that give rise to this desperate hatred still remain, and it will only be a matter of time before people reorganize and start again. How do you fight people who are so desperate that suicide missions are part of their attacks? Are they going to stop because you've killed some of them?
There's something going on here.. and it's not only about them, it's about us too. We can stop the "them" of the moment, but unless we also fix whatever's wrong with "us," it continues.
posted on September 12, 2001 08:02:41 AM new
Yes, but rather than listen we send cruise missiles.
I saw an Arab on a newscast last night, an American of Arabic descent I guess I should say, who put it plainly that he believed that if the U.S. would take the time and effort to undestand the resentment against the U.S. rather than simply targetting the latest 'offender', and talk, negotiate in a real regard for the concerns of the Arab world that there would be no more terrorist attacks.
Sure, the guy couldn't be speaking for the whole arab world but what he said made a lot of sense to me.
I find it interesting to see the unforgettable face of Mohmmar Kadaffi (sp?)in the news today. Are we bringing back old known to be successful stimulants of American resentment to foster the warlike feelings in the country? And I had thought that we had cutoffhi's nose to spite that face.
posted on September 12, 2001 08:13:46 AM new
Pictures of Khadaffi aren't needed to "foster the warlike feelings in the country." What happened yesterday was more than enough.
posted on September 12, 2001 08:18:08 AM new
For the future, I think that there has to be 'zero tolerance' on all terrorist threats made to the United States.
If a group is known to be training people to perform terrorist acts - it needs to be taken care of immediately - BEFORE they hit.
If the US has a reputation of this zero tolerance, no country will harbor terrorists, unless they are prepared to stand up to the United States.
posted on September 12, 2001 08:25:01 AM new
Im probably going to get flamed for this, but Im gonna say it anyway. What happened here yesterday is the same thing that has been happening in Ireland for a hundred years or so, and what has been happening all over the world. Countries at war use terrorist tactics. Yesterday was an act of war, but what country do we "blame" it on? What country's civilians? Who? What culture? Just pick a middle eastern one and bomb the crap out of it because they all "look the same" or "think the same" or "worship the same"? Because it happened here, and all these innocent people died? What about women and children and innocents in those other countries? Who said war was fair?
posted on September 12, 2001 08:31:45 AM newHe did not "inherit money from someplace" he was given his money by our Central Intelligence Agency in support of his 'terrorist' actions against the soviet invasion of Afganistan.
If you are talking about Bin Laden, he inherited his personal wealth from his father. He uses his personal wealth for his terrorist activities. It is unknown at this time whether he is behind yesterday's events.
There is absolutely no excuse, nor justification, for what was done yesterday. None. Rational people do not resort to acts such as this. If you believe that, you are not the person I thought you were.
I'm sorry to see you go, krs. We agree on many things, and not on other things. I probably won't be back either.
posted on September 12, 2001 08:36:34 AM new
"His training camps in Taliban have recently been given a $43 million grant of support by this country under the guise of support against drug production."
posted on September 12, 2001 08:37:16 AM new
The Zionist movement started when?...about 100 years ago? It had little support from the world's governments until a mad man in Germany spearheaded a series of terrorists acts against millions of members of the Jewish "nation"...anihilating most of Europe's Jewish people.
The world resolved to stop the German terrorists but not because the Jewish people were being systematically wiped off the face of the world but for their own political reasons.
After the German terrorists were stopped the governments of the winning side felt guilty for their own culpability in the death of millions of Jewish people so they agreed to the goals of the earlier Zionist movement, but not until after the Jewish people in Isreal (Palestine)fought their Palestinian neighbors for control of what was to become Isreal.
In creating Isreal another people were wronged...the Palestinians. The Palestinians lost part of their country. They lost political control of THEIR land.
The Palestinians feel they have the moral right to try and take back what was wrongly taken from them. Isreal feels they have the moral right, as reparations for a grave wrong done to their people, to have political control of the area once belonging to the Palestinians.
Both sides are right...and that is why there is so much unrest in that region.
The US supports Isreal politically and finacially and therefore is seen by the Palestinians as being their enemy. The Palestinians see the US as being in colusion with Isreal, aiding and abetting the enemy who has killed Palestinian freedom fighters and innocent women and children.
Like most participants in a political war who feel their cause is just, the Palestinians feel God is on their side. Couple that with a strong fundamental religious belief that pervades their culture and religious-political fanatics are born.
When the British conceded to the American revolutionist there was celebrations. When the South conceded to the North, there were celebrations in the North. When victory over Japan was announced there was dancung in the street. When some Palestinians saw their "enemy" (us!) suffering a "defeat" they danced in the streets.
In a war innocent people die. The Palestinians see themselves as much at war with us, the aiders of their enemies, as much as they see themselves at war with Isreal. Innocent people were the victims of the "war"...sad but part of the course of a "war".
If we don't try and understand the dynamics of the middle east unrest we cannot stop that unrest. If we don't see that "we" are also part of that unrest we can't work to stop the problems in that region of the world.
"Wiping out" the terrorists and those who support them isn't going to solve anything. It will just make those who die and the governments of the country hit into "heros". Their deaths will be the catalyst for an even stronger resolve to right the moral wrong they see as being perpetrated against them.
This attack wasn't another Pearl Harbor. That was an aggressive act that was unprovoked...the people who masterminded and carried out this attack feel they are retaliating for aggresive acts against them. We need to understand that they feel we started this.
Without understanding the position of those who did this we can't hope to permanently stop this "war".
The death of thousands of people is horrible. The rejoicing we saw in Palestine is sick. But a knee-jerk response of "blast them to kingdom come" won't solve it. If this attack was born out of a void...if it was just an unprovoked aggressive act, then a strong "anihilate them" response would put a swift end to any more such attacks. But when those who attack feel they have been morally wronged by their target the "anihilate them" will never work. As far as they are concerned it is US who needs to be anihilated so that THEY are safe.
posted on September 12, 2001 08:43:32 AM new
Amy, thank you for explaining so well. Of all the posts I have read this morning and yesterday, that one made the most sense.
posted on September 12, 2001 08:47:49 AM new
Amy said:
"Wiping out" the terrorists and those who support them isn't going to solve anything. It will just make those who die and the governments of the country hit into "heros".
I agree with you.... but, what does the United States do then?
The only thing I can see working is to make every country SCARED to harbor these terrorists, by declaring war on them.
posted on September 12, 2001 09:01:28 AM new
Fred, the $43 million support is common knowledge by now. I posted newslinks about it in reference the issues of the subjugation of women in or by Taliban at the time that the money was announced. I doubt that I could find them now, at least without using the archives in bushwatch.com.
posted on September 12, 2001 09:02:31 AM new
Well put, Amy.
Wow, I somehow missed that you aren't back, Krs. I'd almost think you jumped in in spite of yourself to agree with me. Almost thinking that, I'd almost be flattered. And that's about as effusive as I ever get.
posted on September 12, 2001 09:03:48 AM new
ProudCanuck...I don't know!! I am hoping that Bush can be levelheaded enough, wise enough, strong enough to carefully craft a response that WILL NOT lead us into further escallation of an already volitable situation. Actually, although I am not a truely religious person, this time I am praying Bush has what it takes to handle this.
You said "The only thing I can see working is to make every country SCARED to harbor these terrorists, by declaring war on them"
Your sentiments have been stated by many others over the past 24+ hours.
But if that is the way to rid the world of terrorists, why did we wait until the terrorists struck on US soil? Why didn't we (and the world) do that before?
If we had then maybe all those people who have died in the middle east or Ireland would have lived out the natural span of their lives.
Of course, if we declare war on those countries that harbor terrorists then we have to declare war on ourselves because for years we have harbored terrorists who have killed many people in Ireland and England.
posted on September 12, 2001 09:11:07 AM new
Katy,
You're right that he is personally wealthy, and I'm right that he received unspecified but substantial support for his activities against the soviets from this country. So does he keep those monies in separate accounts?
Why do you insist that anyone who presents a viewpoint in which the actions of people, regardless what they are, is offering excuses (usually capitalized) for those acts?
posted on September 12, 2001 09:19:10 AM new
Im not too thrilled to die a slow and lingering death of radiation poisoning when the nuclear bases are hit. And if we go drop bombs on a middle eastern country because we "think" they are the culprits, then that is just what is going to happen. It wont be just the twin towers in NY and a couple of thousand people. It will be all over the US. And because "we" think "they" are "evil" and vice versa. I dont know the answer, but what is begun, will be returned in like kind.
posted on September 12, 2001 09:39:53 AM new
Umm, no. The major news links may still be maintained on that site, Fred, I don't know if they are or not, but the places where I obtained the links I used at the time, daily feeds from the wires, do not go back that far if they go back at all.
posted on September 12, 2001 10:36:09 AM new
Krs...I guess it is going to depend on who is doing the defining of good and evil then, because both sides see themselves as good and the other guy as evil.
PRAY that Bush has hidden qualities that are not readily apparent because if he doesn't I fear I won't live to see my grandchildren grow up...IF they GET a chance to grow up!!
All it is going to take is ONE nuclear weapon to set the end in motion! And I see a distinct possibility that IF we start retaliating that the groups who are not directly involved will see their chance to "hit" their enemies under cover of a general free for all.
