posted on September 12, 2001 10:56:33 AM new
Amy, you're posts are certainly not melodramatic; they are realistically intelligent and articulate. It's good to see some of the less emotional, more reasonable perspectives expressed.
I'm really very surprised how little understanding of the world today exists in the minds of many people.
posted on September 12, 2001 01:03:25 PM new
I often find it interesting to get a non-U.S. centric view of events. Here are some links from the BBC that provide a surface level background on Osama Bin Laden and his links to the Taleban in Afganistan:
Those that would prefer a more detailed background and analysis of Bin Laden might find this interesting. It is from the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism. This group bills itself as a “think tank” on counter terrorism. However, since one of its Board of Directors is an ex-director of the Israeli Intelligence Agency (Mossad) and another is an ex-senior official of the Israeli Foreign Affairs Division and of the Prime Minister’s Office one might suspect that they have a somewhat polarized view of the topic. None the less it is extremely detailed with a significant number of interesting links.
posted on September 12, 2001 01:04:02 PM new
I don't think there is a solution. The "developed West," especially the US, has a basis in law and principle of such concepts as religious freedom and democracy. (I will agree that various manipulative forces merely pay lip service to such ideals, however there's an underpinning of tradition and legal precedent that's not simple to avoid given some courage by citizenry.) Various undeveloped countries such as Taliban are poor as dirt, lacking in resources, and continue to fall back on ridiculous Stone Age superstitions, in addition to violence, to maintain power of their few leaders.
Unfortunately there're a few quite wealthy Arab countries that share some of the beliefs and authoritarian structures of this really silly Taliban Afghanistan and their harbored fugitive Bin-Laden. Assuming he was behind, or in any substantive way connected to, yesterday's events, we simply must physically go into Afghanistan and extract or kill him. We must and we will, I believe.
Doing so will aggrieve and anger many other Moslem countries and factions like Hamas that have not thus far targeted the US to a great extent. It does not take a high percent of their available oil wealth to finance germ warfare or purchase of a few nuclear devices, I would think, just some more time. Seeing the US use its technological superiority to smush Afghanistan will fuel *somebody* to conclude they'll be justified to throw money at an effort to get "the bomb" into the hands of a Moslem fanatic faction. (I would also agree a true follower of Islam would have nothing to do with such a path, but the Taliban are to Islam what Jim Jones or the people who planned to ride the UFO behind the comet are to Christianity.)
What will this country do if a couple of *cities* vanish five or ten years from now like the Towers did yesterday? And if, like now, it's not at all clear where responsibility lies? Just look at the debate ongoing right here, consider that everyone is in fact making valid points! With overwhelming technology swirling around in the hands of bunches of apes only a few thousand years advanced from the stone age, and only 60 years from the insane horrors of Nazism.... well, I fear that very truly "these *are* the good old days."
posted on September 12, 2001 08:50:47 PM new
Yes, maybe. But as they are a relatively simple culture so are their concerns basic by the measure of the world. s it so difficult to ask what brings them to the point of risking what little they have? As I understand it, they are aggrieved by the presence of US. troops in their holy lands which, however insignificant such a concern may seem to us, are sacred lands to them. They are incensed with the U.S. unqualified support of Isreal in it's systematic oppression of their people and denial of what they, and most of the Arab world, consider to be rightfully theirs.
What would the reaction in this country be to foriegn troops on our soil, much less encamped in our national cemetery? And what if a country outside of our sphere provided the means in whole for a small country to have great power over our preservation of our borders? Wouldn't there be a severe reaction to those things?
In another now closed thread shadowcat responded to my post about the reestablishment of military capacity by Germany after WW1 by saying "KRS: WWII was virtually guaranteed with the policies(the Treaty of Versailles) set in place after WWI. The European countries who signed that treaty are as much to blame for WWII as Hitler", and I agree with her. But I also think that my point in bringing that example to thread had been missed. That point should by now be obvious, but in case it is not; I believe that the policies of the United States in the middle east have virtually guaranteed attacks such as yesterday, and unless those policies are altered such things will continue.
I'm not going to argue on the following point. Who's got time for that?
Before anyone jumps again to defend Isreal please do a little bit of research in the world press concerning the atrocities that Isreal continues to commit against the people who would reclaim their own land. It's quite an eye opener to do that if the viewpoint of that new researcher has based his or her opinions of the situation in that part of the world on U.S. news and governmental press releases.
posted on September 12, 2001 10:34:52 PM new
From The Arabic Media Internet Network web site http://www.amin.org/En/eyejrs/0109/free6_090901.html
Regarding suicide bomb attacks, there is apparently no shortage of Palestinian youths willing to sign on:"One Palestinian youth told this news agency last wee that it was Israel who was pushing the Palestinians to martyrdom. "Israel oppression has transformed our life into a hell, they (the occupation) are offering us the choice between being killed as meek sheep or die as martyr-bomber," said the young masked man.
According to Hamas and Islamic Jihad officials, this young man is one of hundreds of young Palestinian men (and women) who are broaching the military wings of the two movements, wanting to be “martyr-bombers”.
"For the first time, we are unable to absorb all the applicants," said Abu Nimer, a Hamas military official, using his nom de guerre, for security reasons. He pointed out that more and more Palestinians were realizing that “martyrdom operations” is the most potent weapons with which Palestinians can put up a semblance of deterrence in the face Israel's awesome death machine."
And if that isn't chilling enough:"It is a canard like the many calumnies the Zionists have spread in the course of the past year for the purpose of distorting our struggle."
"Well, Hamas might be able to brainwash a few people, but it can't
brainwash most of the people, and most Palestinians support martyrdom
operations."
According to an opinion survey published by the Beit Sahur-based Palestinian Public Opinion Center last week, as many as 80% of Palestinians said they were supportive of martyrdom operations."
I've long held the opinion that Palestinians got a very raw deal when Israel was formed. I do think we need to seriously revisit the aid we give to Israel, but - the sight of cheering Palestinians celebrating the deaths of American civilians was beyond sickening.
It's not a sight I'll soon forget - right now it's kind of all meshed with the images of twisted steel and concrete rubble. And a pretty strong desire to puke if I think about it very long.
posted on September 13, 2001 04:17:59 AM new
Something just doesn't sit right with me. According to the news reports, two of the terrorists who hijacked one of the planes had been renting houses in Florida for about 15 months. The landlord stated that they were nice people who paid their rent ($1400.00 a month) on time. These two men went to a flight school in Florida.
They managed to remain in this country for over a year without calling any attention to themselves. They didn't isolate themselves, but they didn't do anything that would make them stand out and be remembered.
Now, after they completed their 'mission', all sorts of evidence is coming out. Computers have been found in the homes they used to rent. Phone records, credit card receipts, literally hundreds of pieces of evidence are being found.
A man calls someone and reports that he had an altercation with two Arab men in the parking lot of the Boston airport, and he describes the car the two men were driving. Police find flight manuels, written in an Arabic language, in the rental car. They also find other evidence as well. The person who made the phone call, as far as I know, has not been identified.
The owner of a bar reports that one of the suspected terrorists was a customer who became belligerent last week, refusing to pay his bill. He then pulled out a huge wad of money and eventually paid what he owed.
I know these people are not robots, and the knowledge of what they were about to do must have been weighing heavily on their minds, but it makes no sense to me that they could apparently execute their plan so flawlessly for over a year, covering their tracks, calling no attention to themselves and blending in with everyone else, but at the very end, they left a trail that anyone could follow. Some of them may have acted in ways that would ensure that they were remembered by someone.
The American public has shown throughout recent history how easily they're led, no matter how strongly they protest that they think for themselves. Remember how easy it was for Kawait use paid publicists to sell the Gulf war to us?
I just wonder where we're being led this time, and what it's going to cost us when we get there.
