posted on September 14, 2001 12:07:00 AM newTwinsoft: the carping seen here about Bush over the past months is no different than the carping about Clinton for 8 years previously. And no different than the carping about Presidents for the past 200+ years. Every president with the possible exception of Washington has had detractors, citizens who were just plain unhappy about a president's policies, personality, actions, etc.--and weren't shy about telling others about that unhappiness.
The fact that American citizens are *able* to voice dissatisfaction for their President, or to question his policies, actions & decisions, to joke about it--whatever--is a very special thing. There are a lot of places in the world where doing so could land you in jail. Or dead.
The day we have to tippy-toe around, hide dissatisfaction, or are reduced to whispers or silence will be the day we start to slide away from the freedoms we have held dear. Toward the type of rule that the *Taliban* holds dear.
Don't like what others say about Bush? Then make your own statements. Engage in debate. Or, lacking the will or desire to do so, simply ignore them. That's another beauty of our society: no one is forced to listen to or go along with things they do not agree with.
posted on September 14, 2001 01:00:17 AM newBunnicula, not being a military person, you don't understand the need to support our president during this time. Yes, I am being serious.
I don't like Bush. I think he stole the election. (Though I am not interested in making a career of complaining about him.) But now is the time for us to pull together as a nation.
'Don't think Bush spent enough time in front of the camera? Wait until the military response begins, and the body count mounts. Then all this "carping" will serve only to demoralize those families with sons and daughters in harm's way. KRS of all people should understand this, but I doubt he will.
posted on September 14, 2001 03:10:01 AM new
My point was that the term "Bush-bashing" would be whipped out here by some posters if you mentioned he had a bad haircut.
Anyway:
The implication made by several folks in this thread that those without military experience are somehow incapable of having a valid perspective on this topic is absurd. By that standard, our current Commander in Chief (a civilian position, I note in passing) should disqualify himself. Unless you count keeping the skies of Texas free of the fearsome Mexican Air Force for two years as military experience. The Founding Dads (who with a couple glaring exceptions seemed to have some pretty good ideas) didn't make military service a requirement for First Amendment coverage, or for being elected to any federal office, including President. Not that this guy was, anyway.
(OK, call that Bush-bashing if you will. But it's on-point Bush-bashing.)
posted on September 14, 2001 05:08:27 AM new
twinsoft,
"He's well past the time to come before the nation and assure us that he is taking charge."
"Bush has done that several times. He has repeated his resolve. But at this point, what is to say? Vague reassurances? Threats of retribution?"
Sad isn't it, that some things never improve no matter how much fish you eat. My portion of the above means that he should have issued his assurances the first day, within hours if not minutes of this strike. But he began on the day after, and continues today making just as you suggest,; "vague reassurances?Threats of retribution?"
and you know that or you would not have devoted the amounts of time needed for you to formulate those two phrases. It would not surprise me to hear you say that you feel the same way, and as you do feel that way your posting here in the manner done is just more of your usual rabble rousing attempts at disruption of the forum.
posted on September 14, 2001 06:29:18 AM new
Well, I wasn't going to post to this thread, but what the hey. I lied.....learned from Clinton.
Getting back to the subject of the thread, as Spazmodeus suggested: When asked by the women if he could help, he should have looked them in the eye and told them how he had an opportunity to take out this madman, but didn't.
KRS....You are correct. We should be doing something, but Clinton already blew up the asprin factory, so what is left to do?
posted on September 14, 2001 06:50:14 AM new
Blah, blah, Tex. And he had a fully formulated plan to improve security aboard domestic flights, the Gore-[somebody] plan, but he didn't implement it because it was voted down by the republican congress as being too expensive.
Oh. And tex, you may find this link enlightening, or at least helpful in your quest to one day post factually:
posted on September 14, 2001 06:56:14 AM newTwinsoft:Bunnicula, not being a military person, you don't understand the need to support our president during this time.
With all due respect, hogwash. I have already stated in other threads that I do support` the stance the President has taken in this crisis. But if you think that that means giving up any of the freedoms I have as an American citizen, then perhaps you are the one who lacks in understanding.
It is *that* kind of thinking that lead to the Alien and Sedition Acts in the late 1790s. And the way some people have been talking, if we're not careful we'll have to face down such despicable things *again*.
posted on September 14, 2001 07:06:27 AM new
Just for the record, the two speeches that I posted to this thread were those given by President Bush on the morning and early afternoon of the 11th. A third was given in the evening. If I were inclined to complain about his speeches it would only be that he gave too many during an ongoing attack against our nation. How anyone believes he should have spoken out more on that day is honestly beyond me.
posted on September 14, 2001 07:18:10 AM new
gaffan? he doesn't have military expierence? ok, did Gore, did Clinton? He's had more military experience than both those guys put together, and that was just being in the TX guard, and again, betcha these guys are thinking Thank God its not me that has to be in that position right now
Anyway, the security around the President, of what I heard on the radio last night, said they didn't even want him to go to NY, I haven't heard, but I guess he's still going
krs, quit the drive by posting me at me, and run for President
posted on September 14, 2001 07:25:29 AM new
Sorry, KRS, but I have to give as much crediblity to Spazmodeus' post as yours. If Clinton had his chance and didn't take it, it was a BIG blunder.
Are you telling me that Clinton DIDN'T bomb an innocent drug factory...to cover his a$$.
If a few good men, as you say, can solve this problem, why didn't Clinton do it? I'm sure Bush will be glad to hear that your plan is going to get us out of this mess. Have you e-mailed your plan to him?
I'll read your reply tonight. Even rich Republicans have to work.
posted on September 14, 2001 07:28:07 AM newBut if you think that that means giving up any of the freedoms I have as an American citizen, then perhaps you are the one who lacks in understanding.
"Loose lips sink ships". Freedom of speach and press doesn't include trying to pry out classified information. There will be lots of classified information floating around (in certain places) if they do what I think they will do in response to this. The Press insisting on knowing about every move the government tryes to make is wrong. Some questions shouldn't even be asked at a time like this. To do so puts our military people in danger.
posted on September 14, 2001 07:31:07 AM new
Oh, for Pete's sake--for that matter, Bush SR. had his chance and didn't take it. Carter as well. While we're looking back in time to lay blame, why not put it all squarely at the feet of Great Britain? *They* are responsible for the formation of the modern nation of Israel, after all, which *we* are hated for supporting.
posted on September 14, 2001 07:39:21 AM newHe's had more military experience than both those guys put together, and that was just being in the TX guard
Actualy, I think Gore does have, not that that is so importaint right now.
The only one alive right now with any experience at being Commander in Chief during anything at all like what's going to happen in the near future is Goerge Bush Sr.
[ edited by Microbes on Sep 14, 2001 07:39 AM ]
posted on September 14, 2001 07:47:50 AM new
Were you in Illinois last night marching with hundreds on a mosque shouting how you've always hated arabs and are glad they'll get their due? Or maybe you were beating Arab Americans in Whittier, Ca yesterday, or at any of the hundreds of places across the country where anti Arab violence took place?
No microbe, it won't take millions. This is one punk madman with a few groups of followers. We are not going to war against any viable nation in the world. He's a slippey sh*t, but they can find him with the assistance of the Pakistani intelligence network.
Anyone who is going around predicting doom and vowing to go to war against all of the invading hordes are doing nothing good at all. If anything you are lending justification to the worst elements of our society for taking matters into their own hands as they deem it necessary and are fostering an onset of unwarranted suffering on the part of thousands of your own countrymen.
posted on September 14, 2001 07:48:29 AM new"My portion of the above means that he should have issued his assurances the first day, within hours if not minutes of this strike."
KRS, that stuff might work on newbies, but not on me. I know you too well. You engage in bashing the president solely to bait other posters. The fact that you can't address a point without immediately resorting to insults and sarcasm shows you've really got nothing. Perhaps you value your game more than the feelings of those with children in harm's way.
Bunnicula, let's not see who can be first to drape themselves in the Constitution. There is a difference between freedom of speech and simple tact. Just because you have the right to say something, doesn't mean you should say everything.
posted on September 14, 2001 07:57:07 AM new
Bananas won't work--fish is the thing.
Twinsoft, forgive me. I took you at your word that you are the perpetual newbie at your convenience.
Now, I'm leaving the house, and I've got two full auto rifles and four handguns in the car--just to be safe you know.
posted on September 14, 2001 08:00:57 AM new
Microbes, yes, Bush Sr does have the expeirence, being a fighter pilot in WWII, and being head of the CIA. And yes, I saw him
making speeches yesterday, I'm sure people will say 'what is he doing there'
Answer: because he does have expeirence with this sh!t
He is also constantly being condemned for not 'getting all the job done' IF HE HAD, he'd be bashed for that too.... so its a no win thing with some people.
posted on September 14, 2001 08:01:22 AM new
I can't recall, twinsoft, of any visit that you have made to this forum which wasn't for the purpose of an ad hominem argument.
posted on September 14, 2001 08:01:48 AM new"Gaffan? he doesn't have military expierence? ok, did Gore, did Clinton? He's had more military experience than both those guys put together, and that was just being in the TX guard,"
Uh, not quite. He went AWOL for most of his time in the Texas Air National Guard, at about the same time that little Al Gore was a Spec 4 in Vietnam.
posted on September 14, 2001 08:06:53 AM newThis is one punk madman with a few groups of followers. We are not going to war against any viable nation in the world.
If we are satisfied with just getting Bin Laden, that could be done like you say. But if we take out governments that tolerate, and support this kind of thing, we are in for a long campaim. I think there are more people involved with this than maybe most people realize. How is he hiding a half a billion dollars that is being used to finace this crap? With a lot of help. Like Powell said, we need to rip this organization up by the roots, or we haven't accomplished anything.
posted on September 14, 2001 08:26:09 AM newHe went AWOL for most of his time in the Texas Air National Guard, at about the same time that little Al Gore was a Spec 4 in Vietnam
Again, not that it matters at a time like this, but you are absolutly correct.
Oh yes. Major adversary those Taliban. LOL!
I hope they are the pushover you think they are. If you are correct, this may be an easy thing to do, but I have my doubts. The Russians tryed for years.
posted on September 14, 2001 08:28:24 AM new
At this time, I will refrain from bashing President Bush at all, and as most of you know, I will usually take any opportunity I can to do so.
I will stand behind our President, and our government in this time of "war", regardless of who our leader is. That is just being a good American.
I will however voice my opinion on the fact that President Clinton is, and always will be the greatest President of my lifetime, and one of the most revered in US history.
He had personal issues that were just that, "personal", but regardless of those, he brought our country to economic prosperity the likes of which we have never seen.
He has more charisma and courage than anyone else that I have ever witnessed.
He is a man among men, and anyone, republican, democrat, or otherwise that says his eight years were not "phenominal", has been living somewhere else.
His appearance at the tragic site was not a photo op, nor was it a "political" move. It was a true careing for the people of this country, and Bill Clinton has ALWAYS thought of the good of our country, regardless of his personal failures.
This is not a time to bash or tear down anyone, other than those responsible for this mass murder.
This is a time to lift up, dust off, and bandage our ravaged country.
This was only a small sampling of what might have, and still could happen here.
I don't know how to express my anger, or my hate, or my hurt, as many probably don't, so I will just continue babbling, but I will pray as someone wrote:
"Lord have mercy on the people who have done this, because America will not"
posted on September 14, 2001 08:40:09 AM new
One more thing...
I have always felt that at a time of potential "Declared War" or "Armed Conflict", that all living presidents who are with their faculties, should be brought together and consulted on the actions and means.
Not that they should have any say in what happens, but it is a given that each has their own "connections" and "personal friends" amongst world leaders that may help our cause, and also because someone like Jimmy Carter, or Bill Clinton, or Gerald Ford, or George Sr. may know something about other countries that the current President does not, which could be vital, or at least helpful in arriving at a sound decision.
posted on September 14, 2001 09:19:27 AM new
Shadowcat, I understand what you're saying. I guess I think that if I feel scared, and I'm in Canada, I can imagine how all of you must be feeling.
It sounds like the U.S. is going to "make" the countries that support the Taliban, give Bin Laden up or else, and I wonder if they're (Afghanistan/Pakistan) even afraid of what might happen if they don't. Seems like people in those countries don't see the U.S. as any big threat. Hope I'm wrong.
P.S. Spaz, I apologize for my outbursts yesterday and can see perfectly that I caused your thread to be derailed. I think it just all hit me yesterday and I lashed out. I apologize to hepburn and LindaK too....you're right. I wonder too sometimes who the hell I think I am, so I hope I have your understanding. Sorry!
(spelling)
[ edited by kraftdinner on Sep 14, 2001 09:20 AM ]
posted on September 14, 2001 09:24:08 AM newThere is a difference between freedom of speech and simple tact. Just because you have the right to say something, doesn't mean you should say everything.
Uh, TS? I've lost track of the number of times you've said that you yourself "lack tact" by way of excusing some tactless remark you issued. A bit unseemly to demand of others that which you do not expect from yourself.
I lied.....learned from Clinton.
Shucks, Tex, don' be tellin' me y'all's only been lying for nine years.
Just curious: where did I say I didn't have military experience?
-gaffan- [email protected]
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