posted on September 15, 2001 09:28:25 PM new
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all
your mind'; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
Acts 16
T
jt, do you understand this as what one does to go to heaven? I have heard some say so, I have heard some say we have to be 'saved' and they quote Romans something, I can find it if need be (but I'm sure you've heard it), and some say we also have to be baptized to go to heaven. This is all a point of confusion for me.
posted on September 15, 2001 10:11:33 PM new
Hi Simco,
You asked what Limbo is. The way I was taught, limbo is the place where people who are essentially sin free but unbaptised go. It's nice enough, but these souls are never allowed to see the face of God. And yes, the nun said, even babies who die before their parents have time to baptise them go there. In my then 7-8-year old mind, Limbo was like those recent Charmin' commercials with the baby "angels." At that time, I just assumed that the nun had gotten it wrong.
You ask what I believe the origin of life is. I don't know - perhaps whirling bits of nonorganic matter that exploded into life. This may sound weird, but the origin of life isn't really that important to me. Not having scientific answers or certainties doesn't mean to me that there is a god.
Can evolution exist next to creationism. I thought that was a great question. And actually I had a very brave Jesuit priest tell me just that. That maybe Adam and Eve didn't look the way man does now.
Just as you know for certain that there is a God, I feel in my gut that there isn't. There have been many times when I wished there were logical answers for tragedies I've seen around me. I've tried to believe in God. It just isn't in me.
Being an atheist has made me a better person in some ways. I believe in doing good for the sake of good - not because of any reward later. I believe in living this life to its fullest (or at least on my terms w/out too many compromises) because this is the only life I'm certain exists. I believe in accountability because I don't believe that God and Satan are warring over my actions. I'm not saying that people who believe in God don't do these things, just that my lack of belief has made me look at life in a way which I think has made me more honest.
I have many questions about things like an afterlife. Why ghosts are so pervasive throughout history. I believe in miracles. I believe in good and in evil. I don't believe in the anthropomorphic yet mystical concepts of good and evil as God and Satan.
I've enjoyed your posts, Simco. My partner is a devout christian who reads the bible daily, and our debates are often lively and heated.
posted on September 15, 2001 11:19:19 PM new
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23
"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" Proverbs 16:25
"But, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" Luke 13:3
"Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by
me." John 14:6
"Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name." John 1:12
According to the teachings of Christ, to be saved and have eternal life in the presence of God (v. eternal life without God), you must:
1. Admit that you are a sinner.
(The OT Law was to illustrate our sin nature. Works can't save us.)
2.Believe, and ask Jesus/God/Holy Spirit to come into your heart as your Lord and Savior. When you do this, you will receive the Holy Spirit as a presence of God in your life.
(Ask me if you want to know more about that. I am "filled with the Spirit" but I am not "spirit filled". Confusing, religious words I know.)
Here churches get on the band wagon. The Bible says "Confess with your mouth that I am Lord". I think this means your prayer. Churches will tell you it means "come up front and tell everyone". If you DO tell people in your life it will help understanding with the changes that will come in your life. Then they say you need to be baptised (many forms). Well Jesus did get baptised in the river Jordon by John the Baptist to set an example for us for repentance...but Jesus never said you must be baptised. Baptism REPRESENTS your change, it doesn't CAUSE it. It represents: death of your old self, resurrection of your new self.
It is a WITNESS to others. It's not required for salvation. This divides "religion" from "faith".
Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Where does he say you will be condemed without baptism? He doesn't.
3. Repent.
Lots of people get confused with "repent". It's not joining a church, or getting dipped in a Baptismal pool, or feeling regret and forgetting it tomorrow. Repentance is a continual state of turning toward God and away from sin. It does not mean that you will never sin again. We ARE sinners by our very nature.
Note here that Jesus (or God in the flesh) isn't just going to be your "happy savior" but also your "LORD". He said, "Take up your cross, and follow me". He didn't say it would be easy either. You will be the servant of Christ, the Son of, the Trinity of, the One Holy God. One can assume that if one is sincere, one will attempt to learn and follow the other teachings in the Bible.
My daughter learned it an easier way, ABC:
Admit (sin), Believe (in Christ), Confess (that He is LORD of your life).
Jesus was asked the question more than once and He did not give the "exact" same answer each time. He didn't GIVE this answer at all, instead He accepted the understanding of the person who came to Him as correct. All His teachings are completely in harmony as to what is required. I think what was illustrated in Acts 16 was a summary of a changed life...or a life lived in repentance and dedication to God. The guy who gave the answer had the right idea and Christ could see his heart. That's how Jesus was. He accepted people and taught repentance with love and understanding.
If you read one of the 4 gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, then you will have a clear understanding of who Jesus is and what He taught about Salvation. I suggest John. Who would pass up the opportunity to read the biography of GOD?
posted on September 15, 2001 11:28:39 PM new
Limbo does not follow NT teaching. I know you said it was a Catholic thing. I don't understand how Catholicism got to be so far from the NT. Admiting my ignorance of Catholicism.
Evolution next to creation? I think it's possible but if so I believe that man was a separate creation. Man evolved skin color and physical traits...but did not evolve from an ape. My acceptance of evolution is only to the point of what does not contradict scripture. The concept of "old earth creationism" follows the thinking that both occured and were intertwined. The concept of "young earth creationism" does not. Young Earth Creationism is more along the lines of "the trees God put in the garden already had growth rings when they were created".
T
posted on September 16, 2001 12:05:49 AM new
sadie999, Some years ago I went on what I call a quest for wisdom and feel as though I will be on the quest the rest of my life. Always searching, questioning, and honing my beliefs. I could not accept the Christian way just because I was raised attending the church, nor could I accept the Baptist way I was exposed to by relatives. I needed to scrap all that and start over for myself, to decide for myself whether or not what I had been taught was really what I believed and would live.
As a child I heard so many things that I now know were erroneous. It is no wonder I stayed away from religion and churches for several years. I heard that one could go to hell for lying, wearing a dress too short, card playing was sinful, don't do this that or the other thing for fear that God will whatever! I had the feeling that there was no way I could ever be accepted by God so why bother trying. It was too strenuous for me given all the misinformation.
Sometimes I would think I'd check into the Christian thing again. I would realize all I had been told that was un-Christian and think that as soon as I got everything together I'd go back to church and try again. I just couldn't get myself to the point of feeling acceptable enough to get involved.
It was many years before I was told the gospel, or that gospel means 'good news'. There had been little good news for me where religion was concerned. And the good news was that I was acceptable after all to Jesus, that He loves me unconditionally, just as I am. Now that was a novel idea!! It all became more exciting after that.
So anyway that was my beginning in a nutshell. Never heard of Limbo before. Not something I believe or feel I could choose for myself to believe. You mention nun so I suppose that means Catholic faith, and I do know that part of Catholic belief is to baptize babies.
I don't spend much time trying to understand the origins of life either, I prefer to think of the other end as it is ahead and I can have an effect there. It is of minor interest I should say, but I am sure there are many people who devote their life work to those types of questions, and they still don't have the answers.
And to work for rewards in heaven seems too far on the other end of life for me at least at this time. I give that little thought, what I may or may not be rewarded with. I try to live a good life because I believe it is the best way. I try to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, which can be a pretty tall order sometimes.
I appreciate hearing how it is to be an atheist as I don't believe it has ever been explained to me before like that. I guess I have never really doubted that God existed, but I did doubt whether or not I would be able to live up to whatever was expected of me. I'm reminding myself of a lady I know who was afraid to turn her life over to the Lord for fear she would talk in tongues and embarrass herself. My issues didn't seem so strange to me after that.
I do not believe I could say I was a willing convert to the Christian faith. I now know that if God wants you to be His child He will have you, even if you fight against it.
posted on September 16, 2001 12:37:22 AM new
Yes, jt, you have answered my questions and I appreciate the time you spent doing that. It was Romans 10:9 that was coming to mind earlier. My pastor told me that when he helps someone turn their life over to the Lord he will read this verse with them, and then ask them are you saved. sidenote: My pastor has a good sense humor. He says they will confess, pray, ask forgiveness, turn their life over to the Lord and read the passage with him, but won't realize that is all there is to it. So often there is an expectation that something BIG will happen, especially in the way they feel immediately.
He does that a couple of times, not to poke fun at them, but to get them to realize on their own that yes, they are saved, and it says so right there!
That is the same way I felt about baptizm. It is a physical enactment you might say of throwing of the old and taking on the new. But I hadn't seen that it was a requirement in the Bible so I thought I'd ask. There are so many differing opinions.
I believe this few things you've mentioned is the simple Christianity that often gets overlooked because of many things that humans add to it. I believe that once we are believers we will be lead into whatever else is required of us, but that we can better ourselves as Christians by actively seeking it out. Either way you are a child of God, and He will make sure you have whatever you need to accomplish His purposes for you, when you need it.
Anyway, have you ever gotten the idea that, in general, people think that being a Christian is not fun?
I know that I have not known any greater peace within.
posted on September 16, 2001 01:02:43 AM new
Read Romans 10: 9-13. Nine alone is incomplete.
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
"is the simple Christianity that often gets overlooked"
There is nothing more concise than a red letter edition Bible.
I think even more than people thinking it's "no fun", people are very very confused when it comes to "gospel" v. "religion". It is that confusion that is the greatest hinderance to people's salvation.
posted on September 16, 2001 02:11:34 AM new
Thank you Barry for putting into words how I feel, but I never seem to be able to explain it as well as you do.
Terri does your husband share your faith as strongly as you do. It has been such a long time since he posted here I can't remember.
To those that believe in heaven would you please tell me what you think heaven is, and why you strive so hard to get there.
This is an interesting thread and I've enjoyed reading it.
posted on September 16, 2001 04:13:34 AM new
Lots of people believe in different things, here's what I believe.
I don't believe we are our body
I believe we are our soul
Our bodies are simply a container to house what we really are - a soul is the name most often used -
When this body dies I will go to another body OR a different type of container OR maybe I will no longer need or want a container.
Now I have asked myself a thousand times why am I in this container, and where was I before I entered this container.
Sometimes I think I have chosen this container for one reason or another, and sometimes I think this container was chosen for me.
Am I in this container to learn something?
If so, learn what?
Am I in this container to teach something?
If so, teach what?
Am I in this container as a punishment?
If so, what did I do?
Am I in this container as a reward?
If so, what did I do?
And what about the other "souls" around me
Did they choose their containers?
What about the containers that are what we consider damaged?
Then we must bring the Lord into my thinking.
Now I believe that there is a Lord, and that he created man in his own image, but is "man" the container? Or is "man" the soul?
I believe true man is the soul, I believe the Lord has given us total Freedom in what we choose to do on this earth, within the limits of the container's we find ourselves in.
I love the lord, for many reasons, but most of all for allowing us that freedom and for giving us the ability to Be loved by others.
Now as to those who do not believe in the Lord, well ...I really feel very sorry for you, not because you will miss out on any type of heaven or because you will suffer any kind of hell, but because you are missing the GREATEST Feeling of love that there is.
How can people look at all the stars, which can Never be counted, then add in all the planets around them, then multiply that by the largest number you can comprehend, and then say that it just IS, that it is simply there, that it was all one big ball once, And if so why? Why is it all there?
I do not bring any kind of Religion in here, simply because I believe that religion's are a way to Worship the lord. Some people Love their religion more then they love the Lord, that sounds strange to some of you, but think on it a bit.
We have gotten to "tied up" in religious beliefs and have gotten away from Gods ONE TRUE MESSAGE, LOVE
You know if there is no God, and you die, you won't know, because you will simply no longer exist.
posted on September 16, 2001 05:25:55 AM new
The discussion of what God atheists don't believe in reminds me of an exchange in Joseph Heller's "Catch-22." It's been several years since I read it, but the gist is something like this -
Yossarian, the protagonist, and his lover, both self-proclaimed atheists, are having a discussion about God. Yossarian's focus is on the - "If there is a God, how could he allow pain" angle. By Yossarian's reasoning, since there is suffering, there can't be a God, He wouldn't allow it.
His girlfriend says that pain is necessary, as a device to show us that there's something wrong that needs attention. Yossarian responds that if that's true, why not have made people with flashing lights in their forhead instead, as a signal that would work fine. His girlfriend says that people would look pretty silly going around with flashing lights in their forheads, and Yossarian replies that, well, they don't look very good writhing around in excruciating pain.
At the end, Yossarian's girlfriend is reduced to tears, sobbing about Yossarian's picture of a harsh God, and she cries something like - "The God I don't believe in is a loving and merciful God."
In spite of both Yossarian and his girlfriend describing themselves as atheists, it doesn't really look like either of them are. It looks like their discussion is really about the OT/NT God image. Yossarian and his girlfriend both seem to believe in God, but reject Him. That's not atheism.
Of course I believe that my old friend's "sheeple" belief had its genesis in his illness. ("Pigmen" on Seinfeld? I think they stole that from my friend, but "sheeple" has a much better ring to it. The "sheeple" story was offered by my friend a decade or more before Seinfeld.) I didn't mean to suggest that belief in God was generated by illness, merely to illustrate that I'm able to not believe in something that another believes in without acknowledging the existance of the thing in question.
A word about creation - "If there is no God, where did all this come from?"
The atheist's answer is, as Sadie replies - "I don't know." We speculate, could be big boom, whirling bits, whatever. But where did the little bits that formed the bigger bits come from? We don't know.
This is no more of a problem for us than a creator God is for you. That is to say, it is a problem, but the God believer has the same problem. The only difference is, the God believer starts the question one step forward - God formed everything.
But if you went a step backwards, the question would be - how was the Creator created? Belief in God as Creator accepts the concept of a Creator who was not created, a causeless cause as it were. We atheists don't know how the first matter, or energy, that formed other matter or energy first came into existance. It's enough to say - "It's a mystery," because, in the end (or the beginning, if you prefer), that's the only answer anyone can have, whether they believe in God as creator or not.
posted on September 16, 2001 09:58:19 AM new
chococake, everytime I see someone write the words, "Well in a perfect world..." I think of heaven. My version may not be the One, if there is only one. For me heaven is that perfect world. I can imagine it might end up right here on earth. Is it possible that all of our countries could live in peace? That we could go about our every day lives never fearing.
We live with constant possible dangers every day. Not in a perfect world. No tears, no heartbreak, no hungry children, no lonely widows, everybody able to have that which they need, no death.
It is said that the lion will lay down with the lamb. The animals will have what they need and be at peace. Important for me as an animal lover.
My personal heaven would involve a beautiful garden which I would actually have time to tend. Instead of having to struggle and work all the time I will have the time for the things I enjoy.
It is said that we will have a new name and a new body, and be reunited with those Christians we have loved and lost. We will worship the Lord in person. Streets paved with gold and beautiful cities.
As I said my version may be way off. We won't know for sure till we get there. But as far as striving to get there, I don't. I strive to live each day, to get and give the best I can, to fulfull whatever my purpose is for being here. I try to lighten someone else's load, offer smiles and hugs where needed, give whatever I can to whomever needs it, pray, pray, pray. I don't do all that to get into heaven, or because the Lord wants me to.
I do those things because I want others to be the same with me. Chrianity can be the lightest load we bear. We know that whatever happens our Lord is in control---what peace that brings, no reason for churning minds trying to figure out what to do, what to do. Just pray, and believe that prayer will be answered, because it will, not necessarily the answer we want, but the right answer.
These are just some thoughts that came to mind when I read your post. I found that the longer I stayed in college, the harder it was to put intellect aside, to put reason aside, to put logic aside, and to stop trying to use those kinds of natural tendencies to basically live life.
A part of me was angry about the why, then spend the time learning if I can't use it! Then I realized that like bearmom (I believe it was) earlier in this thread pointed out that our experiences ready us for the next thing to come in our lives---that works with those things we would call bad, as well as good.
Christianity is a lot of things to a lot of people. But the GOOD NEWS is not often what is dwelled on. I suppose the reason is that there is a real concern that someone considering being a Christian might misunderstand and believe that their life will never know sadness, heartbreak, or destruction again. That is not the message I have for anyone. But we've all heard and seen the truth, bad things do happen to Christians, and we still have the sinful nature and fall short of the glory of God. We as Christians are still human beings and sin is a struggle at times, but there is nothing like being on the other side of the struggle knowing that we are also overcomers!
Yes, Christians are sinners, when you see a church full of people you see a people willing to admit that openly. Some of us succumb to the same temptations that everyone else does. And when that happens it is big news, and people cry out see, see, those Christians---hypocrits! It's more like, those Christians---human beings!!
chococake, have you ever felt life literally hum around you; so peaceful, joy-filled, and confident; a feeling that you are a part of a large, loving family; very much in tune with nature, the sky, the earth; knowing that you are in the safest place, the right place for you, sure you are doing the things you should; KNOWing that all is as is should be? No, this is better than drugs!! These kinds of feelings are not all the time, every day, but they can prevail during the worst crisis and sustain you when nothing else will.
Part of the good news is that I have a best friend in Jesus. I am never alone. If it's happening to me, it's happening to Him, He is right there with me!! And the best part is He is already Victorious, bin Laden hasn't got a chance without Jesus on his team.
posted on September 16, 2001 10:49:30 AM new
Yes, not to worry, there's no question that God is always on the side of the victor. The only thing that remains to be seen is which side will be victorious.
posted on September 16, 2001 11:27:19 AM newTerri does your husband share your faith as strongly as you do.
No. I can not say that he feels "as strongly about faith as I do". He is a Christian by his own choice apart from me.
To those that believe in heaven would you please tell me what you think heaven is, and why you strive so hard to get there.
Interesting question. I don't know what heaven is other than the tiny fragments of information the Bible gives. You can find all the mentions of heaven as a topic (as opposed to just the word) here:
http://wbsa.logos.com/search.asp
My faith has absolutely nothing to do with heaven. I would still have my faith if death were the end. To me it isn't about reward or afterlife.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled."
"Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
To me it is having known God- awesome, all powerful, perfect, righteous, loving, compassionate, almighty God. I can't imagine life without seeking His presence even having had a glimpse of His character.
Wow! Then when I read the NT, I see that He, God/Christ, loves me so much that He came to experience what life for me was really like, to tell me personally of His love, then to suffer dearly to redeem my wreched sinful selfish soul.
God "qualified me to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light" and "He chose me before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love He predestined me to be adopted as God's child through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One He loves" though it is completly undeserved by me.
Yet, even though I CONTINUE fail Him daily...His love and His promises are not removed.
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ
died for us."
"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for
you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed," says the LORD, who has compassion on you. "
"neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us
from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
I am OVERWHELMED with love, and gratitude, and devotion and heaven seems so unimportant.
posted on September 16, 2001 11:36:33 AM new
I cringe when I hear that "God is on our side" as opposed to their side...
The Bible is filled with examples (if you care to look) that just about every prophet announced God would allow the enemy to enslave God's chosen people for one reason or another (usually hardheartedness and/or disobiedence)......
I have a tendency to rush past those parts because they don't fit into my "image" of God.
I had it explained to me once, that God originally dealt with nations when Jesus arrived he made it personal.
There are many things I do not understand and will most likely never understand. I do have to travel through "life" on a lot of "faith". All I can really do is follow my heart and trust that Jesus is there.
I have said before, hopefully we'll get points for effort or graded on a bell curve!
On the question of what's next.....
I would like to see for myself someday and hopefully I will. However, even if God did not promise one minute beyond this life, I personally believe I should be most greatful that He gave me this one and try my best to show Him honor and gratitude.
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Sep 16, 2001 11:43 AM ]
posted on September 16, 2001 01:26:16 PM newchococake: I'm not sure which of my many long-winded posts in this thread you are referring to, but you're welcome.
simco: "I didn't intend to 'prove' God. I just wanted us to state our beliefs and tell why we believe that way. I stated a belief that 'irked' Barry, without me intending to and I've been trying to 'fix' that every since."
I have no problem whatsoever with you stating your beliefs. If they bring you joy and comfort and don't lead to hurt other people, I say more power to you and I sincerely hope your beliefs are correct. You weren't just stating your beliefs, though. In fact, what you said that "irked" me was "if one claims to be an atheist one necessarily believes in God." At that point, you are trying to tell me what I believe, and that's where I get "irked". Talk about your own beliefs all you like, but don't presume to tell me what I "really" believe, especially when you have to resort to nonsensical logic and word games to do so.
I am an atheist, which means I do not believe in God. If "I do not believe in God" has some strange meaning to you that somehow signifies that, in fact, I actually do believe in God, in spite of the fact that this is the exact opposite of what I said, then please let me offer these alternate and equivalent statements of my position:
"I do not believe that God exists."
"In my opinion, God does not exist."
"Many people believe that there is an entity that they call "God", but I am not one of these people."
"If 'God' is nothing more than an idealized concept used by people to describe all that is good in the world and in other people, then I would agree that such a concept necessarily exists or it would be impossible to discuss it. However, I do not believe that such a concept has any existence beyond the realm of the human imagination, and I'm pretty darn sure that this is not what most people have in mind who say they do believe in God."
Play semantics games all you want, but just remember that when somebody says they don't believe in something, whether it be God, the Boogeyman, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, little green men from Mars, ghosts, the Keebler elves, or the Great Pumpkin, it simply means they don't believe in it. You can't make an exception for God simply because you personally believe in him but not in those other entities. I mean, how would YOU like it if I said that the fact that you say you believe in God necessarily means that you actually don't believe in him? I'm pretty sure you would say I was just talking nonsense, since I would be telling you that you mean the exact opposite of what you actually said.
I wouldn't presume to tell you what you should believe or what you do believe. Please extend me the same courtesy, OK?
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on Sep 16, 2001 01:34 PM ]
posted on September 16, 2001 01:49:05 PM new
godzillatemple
I have to agree with you Belief in god or disbelief is not in words.
it's in actions no matter what your belief it's not about what you say or how words can be twisted out of context or twisted to fit context its about life and how you live in and for your beliefs.
in all reality Belief is not something you Choose its something you are born in too.
Weather you are Jewish, christian, greek or of other faiths not relgion, Faith its self is not about relgion.
True faith can not be debated as well, How does one debate there heritage and why its works for them.
posted on September 16, 2001 10:46:39 PM new
I believe as Meya and whitemist that we are a soul housed in a body. The soul being that part of us that no one else can really know, or touch with tragedy. The body is temporal, the soul eternal. I recommend a book called 'Care of the Soul' by Thomas Moore. "A guide for cultivating depth and sacredness in everyday life." In part, the blip on the back says this book is a "life-style guide that shows how to add spirituality, depth, and meaning to modern-day life by nurturing the soul."
It has been a while since I heard this book on tape but I do not remember it being heavy on religion. Godzillatemple I would be especially appreciative if you would see what you can glean from it, and let me know what you think of it. I really think you will enjoy it. Take those parts of it you can use, and forget the rest.
Quote from whitemist:
Now I believe that there is a Lord, and that he created man in his own image, but is "man" the container? Or is "man" the soul? End quote.
What an exciting question!! It has never occurred to me to ask that. I haven't had something stop me, and give me pause for thought like that did in a long time. That is the very type of thing I was hoping to encounter by starting this thread, some new to me thought to send my mind wandering. Thank you. As a matter of fact I've had that experience a couple of more times as I learn from others here, so thank you all who have responded.
So what do you all think the answer might be to this query?
posted on September 16, 2001 11:01:50 PM new
dman3 quote:
These men didn't do this for no god they used god as an excuse, They did this for there own glorification. end quote
I am in complete agreement with this. I have no idea what teachings or scriptures a terrorist might use to justify his actions, but they were badly skewed. Do you know what he backed his actions up with? I didn't wonder until reading this quote if bin Laden (or whoever) has some feeling of being a god.
What sort of glorification would that be!!! Who would he expect to glorify his name!?!
posted on September 16, 2001 11:15:38 PM new
outoftheblue quote:
I believe Jesus to be the founder of Christianity and his teachings to be the essence of Christianity so if you believe in Christ and follow his example you are a Christian. end quote
I like the simplicity of this. I call myself Christian as one who loves Christ, not because I claim the religion. I am spiritual rather than religious in that I tend to rely of the guiding of the Holy Spirit, prayer, reading the Bible, meditation, reflection, introspection, etc., rather than acting or not because the Christian religion says I should or not.
posted on September 16, 2001 11:42:29 PM new
Hepburn, it's ok as this is a non-threatening post. No scorpions. It may be a little off topic. It only applies to Christians.
So I was studying in Revelations the 7 "states" that Christ describes Christians to be in. I found it interesting as I tried to peg myself. (Please do not help me or you might hurt my feelings.)
The characteristic are:
1. Persevering, hating evil, denouncing false apostles, enduring without growing weary. But..their love has faded.
Instructed to repent and recapture their "first" love.
2. Under trial and tribulation, in poverty, cast into prison to be tested. Instructed to be faithful unto death. (We currently have missionaries that would fit this catagory.)
3. Living in a land of false religion but holding fast to Christ. Allowing false religion to penetrate the beliefs.
Instructed to repent because war will come on the false beliefs.
4. Faithful, loving, perservering, serving, growing more so. But allowing false religion to creep in. Instructed to repent. Told that if you do not follow false teaching, you have no burden.
5. Devoid of spiritual life.
Wake up or miss the rapture.
6. Powerless but have not denied Christ.
Rapture is described as "an open door" for these Christians.
7. Luke warm, neither hot nor cold. Wealthy and complacent. Instructed to repent and receive Christ or be spit (literally vomited) out of His mouth.
posted on September 16, 2001 11:55:40 PM new
sadie999 quote:
The dissatisfaction I felt with what I was being taught about God led me away from organized religion. It didn't lead me away from a belief in God. I don't really remember what did. I just know that at some point I knew that the whole concept no longer made sense to me, nor did it feel true. end quote
I want to address the 'making sense' part of this quote. Does faith in an unseen being make sense? Is is possible that one being can be with me and at the same time be with other Christians? If a man asks for your tunic, give him your cloak too? (p) Love your enemies? Once you drink this water you will never thirst? (p) Burning bushes, parting of the seas, and Noah's Ark?
No, I doesn't make sense, it is not logical, reason doesn't apply here. My feelings as I initially tried to read the Bible and understand. I read a lot, but I could not read that book from beginning to end. I'd throw it down before I got through Genesis. So I tried to start with the NT with the same result.
By that time I began to think something was wrong with me, it had to be something I was doing wrong, I was really getting frustrated. My 80 yo grandmother could explain the King James version (which I still struggle with) and I could understand what she said. But I couldn't make sense if I tried to read it for myself.
I was given a Thompson's Chain Reference Bible, NIV. (Yeah, I know differing translations and all that. This one is footnoted with possible other meanings.) Believe it or not that still didn't help a lot, except that there are lots of extras in the back like maps, archeological findings, and diagrams. That caught my interest. I began to put things into historical perspective, what the customs and traditions of the times were and their meanings of the words.
Finally it dawned on me that IF Jesus is indeed the MAN, then what He had to say must be the most important part of the book. So as jt has recommended I read all the red words which are Jesus's. Many times He spoke in parables. Why? Maybe jt can clear this up, but I believe He did that because some were not supposed to understand. Yet, when I prayed and asked for understanding it started making sense to me.
posted on September 17, 2001 01:09:25 AM new
That's good advice. Start with John. It skips the Christmas story and jumps right into the teachings of Christ.
Jesus did use parables and some were not supposed to understand BUT I belive that was in His presence as He already knew their hearts (and the dangers). He also rebuked the disciples for not understanding at times.
I don't think it's impossible but I think the key is that God has a unique plan. You have to SEEK HIM to FIND HIM.
Scripture truth is also revealed over time. Some things were to be hidden until a later time. One time came in 1948 when WWII ended, Israel became a nation again, and some confusing scriptures were suddenly clearly understood. Other things are STILL hidden, both the things that are not intended for us to understand (how the world was made, etc.) and the things that have not yet been revealed but will be.
For anyone "new" to scripture, do not start at Genesis. Start at John, then Matthew, Mark and Luke, then work your way back to the OT. Read Revelations LAST. It's difficult even with a good understanding of the Bible and world events. Matthew 24 will summerize Revelation anyway.
I too pray for understanding.
T
~clarification
I generally just skip the "begots" but don't miss in Genesis 5:
"Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."
He didn't die. That's like "hidden treasure" to me.
[ edited by jt on Sep 17, 2001 01:19 AM ]
posted on September 18, 2001 03:00:05 PM new
Understanding the bible is not easy I have been studying and teaching for well over 24 years.
The book of JOB still gets me I have never been able to read this one straight through.
find a good Church seek god and the milk of the word before setting out to understand or take on reading the bible take some classes and learn some of the history of that part of the world.
Once you can understand some of the history of the middle east and can start to understand the bible the events that we see happening over the years will start to all make sense and everything wil start to fall into place.
posted on September 18, 2001 03:19:01 PM new
Speaking of...what IS a good church? Anyone know the differences of each one? For example, I have been looking in the yellow pages, and I get as confused there as I do trying to read the Bible.
Babtists. What is the difference between Baptist and, say, Lutheran? I want a church that is very similar to the one on Little House On The Prairie. That sort of preaching from reverand/preacher/whatever. And while Im asking, what IS the difference from Reverand and Preacher? (See? Tolja I was ignorant on religious things).
posted on September 18, 2001 03:38:36 PM new
I always thought the Unitarian Universalist sounded good...in theory at least. Here's the basics...
A religious association of Christian origin that has no official creed and that considers God to be unipersonal, salvation to be granted to the entire human race, and reason and conscience to be the criteria for belief and practice.
posted on September 18, 2001 04:22:10 PM new
A good Church is any small local church in your area you can walk in and from moment one they welcome you with open arms and make you feel as if you have been part of the family all your life no matter who you are.
this is also where you will be able to learn the most.
For good bible teaching ,study and learning there is nothing like a southern baptist church but Genrally I try not to draw lines this is just my observation... http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
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