posted on September 16, 2001 09:21:06 PM new
Terri, you knows I loves ya. But I am looking for comfort in a high power, not to be scared into believing or searching out God. Instead of comfort and love from God, those links are scare tactics. I cant deal with that right now.
posted on September 16, 2001 09:34:13 PM new
It was not intended to scare you Hepburn but to prepare those who might need it.
I realized there were a lot of Christians posting here now and I was curious as their interpretation of prophecy v. current events. I know that I can ask it at the other place but the other place is sort of biased simply by the fact of who seeks it out and reads it every day. (I already got their side loud and clear.) I was also interested in view from a logical (Barry, James) stance.
Comfort is beautiful but these things WILL happen...when I don't know. Maybe a thousand years? Could be totally unrelated to the present headlines you know.
T
posted on September 16, 2001 09:39:41 PM new
Teri, youre not supposed to scare people away from seeking God, but youre doing a dam good job of it with those links. Yes, there are religious people here, and Im sure they will be more than happy to chat about all the tortures and scorpions and death with you. Right now, I cant handle it. I clicked on here expecting more KIND things God wants those who are scared and seeking to know. My mistake.
posted on September 16, 2001 10:05:29 PM new
All-ALL-interpretations of Revelations are subjective and based on the biases and beliefs of the interpreter.
Over the years, I've heard many interpretations of Revelations. A great many of those interpretations are on a par with the interpretations of the prophecies of Nostradamus.
Oh, and I am a "reborn", as one friend calls born again Christians. I've learned, however, that just because some so-called "theologian" says the Bible says something doesn't mean that's what the Bible actually says.
(Imagine my surprise when I discovered the Bible didn't specifically condemn certain religions/denominations to eternal damnation. )
posted on September 16, 2001 10:44:31 PM new
Im picturing this:
Someone comes into a church and tells the preacher/priest/reverend/whatever, that he/she is looking for guidance, comfort, learning and the desire to be closer to God/Allah/Yahweh/Whomever, because something awful happened to them or their family, or will happen, or may happen. The preacher/priest/reverend/whatever, says "come in, my son/daughter, you are welcome. BUT, HEAR ME WELL. REPENT, AND BOW DOWN AND SAVE YOUR SOUL OR YOU WILL DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH FOR NOT BELIEVING". Do you think that person would actually stay there and listen or learn the teachings and find the comfort they needed, which in turn would be a supposed "sheep" finding the proverbial flock?
It wont turn me away from my desire to seek Him out. But I know that you arent the one that will help me get there, because Im having a really hard time seeing God as a vengeful being. I CANT see Him as vengeful right now. I need comfort. Maybe that is selfish on my part and I acknowledge that. But I will still seek. I have been leaning towards doing this for some time, and that is why I have joined in some religious threads. But I turned away when it got to the "bible thumping" and scare tactics. I want to be wanted with love...not threats.
Hepburn, I don't mean to trouble you. Just don't read it if you can't. I understand. That doesn't make me less watchful. I am instructed to be watchful.
****
To rephrase my questions (I admit I do poorly with posing them.):
1. What is the logical possibility of Russia invading Israel?
2. What is the logical possibility of a peaceful world leader rising up and signing a peace treaty with Israel? Who might it be? Country? Individual?
3. How many troops (head count) can China produce at the moment?
Yoo-hoo, political experts where are you? This is not a religious question but a political one...please.
T
Are the political experts so cowardly?
[ edited by jt on Sep 16, 2001 11:46 PM ]
posted on September 17, 2001 12:21:57 AM new
hepburn, Jesus loves you. He loves you as you are right this moment. He is there with you. He is waiting patiently to see if you want Him to be Lord of your life or not. But He will not quit loving you if you decide to wait and think it over.
Psalm 22:11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
Psalm 29:11 The Lord gives strength to his people; the Lord blesses his people with peace.
Psalm 32:8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you and watch over you.
Psalm 34:18 The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
Psalm 37:7 Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for him; do not fret when men succeed in their ways, when they carry out their wicked schemes.
Psalm 37:13 the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he knows their day is coming.
Psalm 40:1 I waited patiently for the Lord; he turned to me and heard my cry.
Psalm 56:3-4 When I am afraid, I will trust in you. In God, whose word I praise, in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can mortal man do to me?
edited to add a B, any typos are mine, not the Bible's.
[ edited by simco on Sep 17, 2001 12:27 AM ]
posted on September 17, 2001 12:44:06 AM new
I hope those passing out these scripture booklets are sensitive enough to remember that among those who are grieving are some who are Hindus, Jews, Buddhist and Muslims (to name a few religions other than Chrstianity).
At this time of sorrow those who are of those religions would probably find more solace in booklets that spoke to them in terms of their own beliefs.
I also hope the government officials who requested the 5000 booklets from this religious group (IBS) also requested material from non-christian groups so those of other religions could be comforted in the faith they believe in. To do otherwise would be the heighth of insensitivity.
Or did I miss the announcement that said only Christians were victims of this tragedy?
posted on September 17, 2001 01:28:22 AM new
We are enjoying the babble over there choco.
Good point Amy.
What amazes me is, why didn't anyone want 5000 or 72,000 of them two weeks ago? I sincerely want as many as will take them to read them and come to salvation, but I do admit that I observe something of a "uh-oh, we are in trouble now" scenario happening. The thing that troubles me is that if things go back "to normal" will America put God back in His long term storage box under the bed?
T
posted on September 17, 2001 02:12:27 AM new
I also find the "Uh-oh, we are in trouble now" and turning to religion to be distasteful.
But I also believe that most people have a basic morality that lives with them, day-to-day, and which guides them. Sometimes they wish to have that part of them nourished and reinforced, particularly in times of stress like these and in trying to cope with what has happened and their fear of what will happen.
But I find the apocalyptic and coercive tracts to "bring people to God" to be the worst of evangelical Christianity. If you cannot win people to your POV through discussion and outreach, they scare them into accepting your truth.
I do not believe a God of love would choose to condemn people who seek and struggle with matters of the spirit because they have not found the ONE answer. It is not a contest, it is a process. Diversity in the world is part of that.
posted on September 17, 2001 02:45:30 AM new
Jt....the problem, as I see it, is not that the Christian scriptures are being passed out because there is a "uh-oh, we are in trouble now" scenario happening"...those who are the intended recipients are not REQUESTUNG them, which is what the situation would be IF your "uh-oh, we are in trouble now" scenario happening" was happening.
The actual scenario I see developing is that at this time of sorrow and tragedy a group of "Christians" "want as many as will take them to read them and come to salvation,"...a group wants to try to undermine the faith of others and turn them to the "salvation" as this "Christian" group sees "salvation"
I found the statements of Robertson and Falwell to be ones of "taking advantage" of a situation and turning it to foster their own agenda. I find those who tried to sell debris from the collaspe of the WTC to be "taking advantage" of this tragedy to further their own agenda. And I find religious groups who take advantage of this situation to try to "bag converts" on the same level of Robertson, Falwell and the WTC debris sellers.
I wonder at what level of hell Dante would have found these "profiteers"?
posted on September 17, 2001 02:47:37 AM new
Terri,
Some things you've said on this message board have brought my admiration. However, I think using the WTC disaster to sell or validate your beliefs to others will bring a only negative response and understandable so.
posted on September 17, 2001 03:51:26 AM new
Sooner or later the governments are going to look at the fact that religion once was a tool to keep the peasant in line for the royalty - but now it is the CAUSE of very expensive strife that is costing billions of dollars and millions of lives and it is time for it to GO.
posted on September 17, 2001 04:58:03 AM new
JT....God BLESS YOU for speaking up for what you believe.
Please know there are people out there reading and they do understand that you are merely trying to inform them and are thankful for your posts. I am one of them.
I only have a minute and I must go...but I will check back later today.
TRUTH:
" Is it not foolish to be living in this world without a thought of what you will do at the end of it?
A man goes into an inn, and as soon as he sits down he begins to order his wine, his dinner, his bed; there is no delicacy in season that he forgets to order. He stays at the inn for some time.
By and by, the bill comes due, and it takes him by surprise. "I never thought of that--I never thought of that!"
"Why," says the landlord, "here is a man who is either a born fool or else a knave. What! Never thought of reckoning--never thought of settling with me!"
After this fashion too many live. They eat, and drink, and sin, but they forget the inevitable hereafter, when for all the deeds done in the body, the Lord will bring us into judgment."
"When a traveler is newly arrived in the Alps, he is constantly deceived in his reckoning. One man declared that he could climb the Righi in half an hour, but after several panting hours the summit was still ahead of him. Yet when he made the boast, some of us who stood by were much of his mind--the ascent did seem easy. This partly accounts for the mistakes people make in estimating eternal things: they have been too much used to molehills to be at home with mountains. Only familiarity with the sublimities of revelation can educate us to a comprehension of their heights and depths."
-- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
Stand Alone on the Word of God
I remain unpersuaded that any theological movement can dramatically affect the course of the world while its own leaders undermine the integrity of its charter documents, or while its spokespersons domestically exhaust all their energies in internal defense of those documents.
The Bible stands impressively unshaken by the fury of destructive critics, while the nonbelieving world, itself marked for destruction, urgently needs to hear its singular message of salvation.
Carl F. H. Henry
posted on September 17, 2001 07:33:26 AM new
Well said Gravid and pretty much on the mark as I see it.
T -
To answer your original question, I believe we are deep in the end times, things will be happening soon. However, I gave up believing in the rapture, so can't help you with that area.
posted on September 17, 2001 07:41:51 AM new
Terri,
The links that you have presented seem to be chosen to produce the desired impact of fear and unease. Is this your desired goal? I am interested in how your topic is being presented from the viepoint of brainwashing techniques..
The following excerpt is based on the history of a Christian revivalist,
J. Edwards in the 18th century. His technique is still being used today
by revivalists to manipulate the congregation.
"By inducing guilt and acute apprehension and by increasing the tension, the "sinners" attending his revival meetings would break down and completely submit. Technically, what Edwards was doing was creating conditions that wipe the brain slate clean so that the mind accepts new programming. The problem was that the new input was negative. He would tell them, "You're a sinner! You're destined for hell!"
Bonding by Fear and Suggestion
"Next, the fire-and-brimstone preacher will come out. He induces fear and increases the tension by talking about "the devil," "going to hell," or the forthcoming Armegeddon.
posted on September 17, 2001 08:59:17 AM newBut He will not quit loving you if you decide to wait and think it over.
I have been thinking it over for some time, but shied away often. I will continue to seek, wherever the path leads me and no matter the denomination. Thank you for your kind words, though...and those thanks go to those who saw my semi-meltdown last night and offered me the comfort I was needing.
posted on September 17, 2001 10:40:45 AM new
People who know me well and have been here for a long time will know that I have been bringing up this topic at AW for as long as I have been here. It's not a "tatic" nor is it a new subject in light of the WTC attack.
What once evoked ridicule and mockery, now evokes "fear and increases the tension".
Interesting.
Amy, my observation was not just here at AW, it was based on the fact that people are pouring into the churches for vigils, the rapture boards are having daily new registration in the hundreds, government organizations are re-embracing prayer, even CNN is discussing "God's part" in world events. Praise God!
But this wasn't happening 2 weeks ago.
T
posted on September 17, 2001 10:47:31 AM new
Terri...if you are surprised by people seeking out "god" in times of trouble then you don't understand much about human nature.
posted on September 17, 2001 11:09:27 AM new
Terri not all people are going to churchs to praise God. People want to be with other people for support, share fears, and just find comfort in something we are all sharing.
Many times there are no other places to meet. Prayer is good for some people. Others just want to hold hands and be close to real live people.
posted on September 17, 2001 11:13:21 AM new
Well, I'll admit that I also find it a bit offensive the way that some people have taken this tragedy as an excuse to proselytize or otherwise scare people into accepting Jesus. When I attended a local candlelight vigil the other night, different people started expressing their thoughts. After a few minutes, though, one guy got up and started quoting New Testament verses. At first, it was innocuous, but he kept going on and on and on about how the end was nigh and how the only way to be saved was to accept Christ. After about five minutes, people asked him to please stop, but he wouldn't. Finally, I told him that his words weren't appropriate, since not everybody there was a Christian. He looked at me completely baffled and said, "but, that's the entire point!"
Of course, there's always the small part of me that wonders what if he's right. Boy, won't I be embarrased....
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 17, 2001 11:25:03 AM new
Are there not boorish loudmouths every where we go? Just because they usually wear bright colors should we avoid or ridicule all who wear bright colors?
posted on September 17, 2001 12:14:10 PM new
Terri, I ask this not as a slam at you, or to diss you in any way, so please keep that in mind. You are expressing concern that this didnt happen two weeks ago. Who are you to judge when someone seeks the truth, or seeks enlightenment? Who are you to "sneer" with doubt one's motives? Is there a certain time limit one should have, or protocol to follow to seek knowledge or salvation or whatever it is you want to call it? Thats what it looks like to me. Instead of being helpful and understanding, or non judgemental, you are putting your own beliefs and feelings into what YOU think is proper in the path one tentatively takes a step toward and finds fault in it due to the timing. This is exactly why I have not pursued it in these many years. People taking a name or title for their religion and saying all else is wrong, or using their own values to speak for the majority. It isnt. Its like shadowcat said..it is what is perceived by each individual.
Your words: What once evoked ridicule and mockery, now evokes "fear and increases the tension".Interesting.
Why are you alluding to what happened before, to what is happening NOW? Shouldnt all those who feel secure in their faith find glory and happiness that others are struggling to find the same? Or is it something to be picked apart and dissected as to the timing and not the reason?
