posted on October 15, 2001 04:49:19 PM new
I view these people the same way I view anyone who deliberately chooses to place themselves in known danger. I don't have much sympathy. I don't *want* them to be killed the same way I don't *want* a skydiver to be killed. But it's their choice to put themselves in that position.
People have the right to be stupid. Also, what's stupid in my eyes is not necessarily stupid in someone else's eyes. As 'adults', we (supposedly) have the mental ability to make choices and should live by their consequences.
posted on October 15, 2001 04:50:03 PM new
They get "persecuted" because they annoy the crap out of people. Plain and simple.
Just how do you think most fine, upstanding Christians in *this* country would react if all of a sudden Jews, Muslims, Hindus--whatever--decided to start proselytizing? Imagine these folks coming into *your* community and trying to get you to change your religion...telling you in essense that *your* religion was total crap and that the only way to eternal salvation was to dump your own sacred beliefs and follow theirs...
I doubt that there would be beheadings--but there *would* be violence.
posted on October 15, 2001 04:52:36 PM new
Spaz...-- The idea of everything being fated is not scriptural. Here is what Ec 9:11 says
"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."
posted on October 15, 2001 04:59:49 PM new
Yet, somehow it's perfectly acceptable for christians to go and harrass non-christians by constantly preaching and forcing their views.
Hmmm.. "harrassment" is, afterall, part of the definition of "persecution" as defined earlier.
posted on October 15, 2001 07:48:28 PM new
Don't have any polite way to ask but doesn't this couple look a bit manic to you guys?
I mean not in the situation but their faces in the pic..
posted on October 15, 2001 08:24:51 PM new
Terri, I dont know what this is about, but if these people went where they KNOW they would find resistance and maybe even death, then what would you have people do? Run over and fetch them or cause an uproar because they CHOSE to go wherever it is they went? Isnt there a passage somewhere in the Bible to knock on doors, regardless? And what Bunnicula said (I think it was her), how would christians feel if another country's missionaries came here, right now, in the presnt time, and said the taliban was correct and for us to repent and believe all they say...do you think they would be welcomed with open arms?
posted on October 15, 2001 09:39:51 PM new
Teri - I can understand that if you don't watch TV you may not be aware of the coverage regarding this. But what about your newspaper? I see this on the news and read about it in the paper everyday. It has been very well covered.
My take on it is no they should not be killed they've suffered enough. With that said I would also like to say that they had no business going there to preach Christianity. Isn't that a big part of what this whole terrorist thing is about? They resent us for just being on their land let alone trying to convert them. Why can't you people just leave other people alone and let them worship as they wish?
I really hope they can come home safe and sound, but I'm sure no lesson has been learned from this and others will go in their place.
posted on October 15, 2001 09:49:07 PM new
Heck, Chococake, if this couple makes it home alive, they'll turn right around and do it again! We (U.S.) are not at all exempt from being rightly perceived in much of the world as breeding "fanatics" of our own...
posted on October 15, 2001 09:53:14 PM newjt: In your opening post you mentioned soldiers, firefighters, Medgar Evers saying that they know/knew the risks of their actions. The big difference between those examples and the imprisoned missionaries is that the former are/were taking action against something that is wrong & needs to be fixed...terrorist actions, fires, racism, etc. The same is not rue for the missionaries.
Allow me to "put words in your mouth" here--I have heard them from other proselytizing Christians: "but the Missionaries ARE taking action against something wrong that needs to be fixed--they are Bringing The Word of God, of Christ to people whose souls are in danger because they don't "know" God." WRONG. The people in question have their own religion and their own beliefs that don't need to be "fixed."
Do I feel bad for these people & hope they escape with their lives? Of course. But for goodness sake, don't claim that they are being "persecuted" just for being Christian, because that is not the case.
posted on October 15, 2001 11:44:36 PM newI doubt that there would be beheadings--but there *would* be violence.
I can not imagine that there would be violence. I have people of other faiths witness to me and I don't feel anger or violence against them at all.
Just today I received a phone call from another faith asking if they could visit to witness to me. I politely said "no thank you". People knock on my door I am polite and kind and say "no thank you".
I don't know of any Christians or any other faith (in America) beating people up to make them accept a different religion. I do see people telling the "good news" and allowing them to make their own choice. I believe that missionaries are doing the bulk of the humanitarian work around the world.
No, I don't watch tv usually but as of late I have been glued to the news. I read the mainstream news on the internet every day. The only place I saw mention of these people was on Drudge.
~edited to add (in America) because obviously the Taliban and other groups around the world are doing more than beating people up.
[ edited by jt on Oct 15, 2001 11:47 PM ]
posted on October 17, 2001 02:14:03 PM new
Glad I took the time to read the whole thread, because, thanx to Femme and Bunnicula, I do not have a type a thing...You both said what I came up to say
If people right here, at home, get ticked when missionaries ring their doorbell on a Sunday morning, whatever time, often ignoring the "NO SOLICITOR" signs on the door, just think how ticked people in another country are...Yes, it is arrogance!
They should not die, no. However, if people learnt to respect other's life-style and beliefs, it possibly could make a little difference.
posted on October 17, 2001 02:54:27 PM new
soshanah - Perhaps you should try a different sign Sosh'- a lot of the people going door to door are not asking for funds so they would ignore the solicitation sign. Maybe a no preachers or evangelists. Or if you just put No Jehovah's Witnesses - Mormons - Charities - or "Anything" for Jesus you'd probably cover 90% of them.
posted on October 17, 2001 03:00:14 PM new
Of all the innocent people who are dying in Afghanistan, these people...predaceous missionaries... unwelcome and illegally proselytizing in a foreign country are the last humans that I would have any concern about.
First, they demonise a country's culture and religion and then have the arrogance to try to steal souls and sell people a religion that is in my opinion, unacceptable in any country.
posted on October 17, 2001 03:08:34 PM new
And Mormans and 7th Day Advantists travel to Mexico to try and convert Catholics to their brand of Christianity. What it boils down to is an attempt to convert people to your way of thinking. Strengh and power in numbers. I consider missionary conversion endeavors very arrogant. It implies that your God and the God of your fathers is no good and only my God and my faith are the true way. If the Muslims attempted this in the USA, Christians would be insulted and outraged.
buyhigh
posted on October 17, 2001 03:16:45 PM new
"I can not imagine that there would be violence. "
Perhaps not while the US is anywhere near as economically prosperous as it has been for the last few decades.
Not too much longer than a century ago wasn't there a country whose citizens would have claimed near-uniform Christianity who dealt with local heathens by giving them blankets deliberately contaminated with smallpox virus? Oh, I guess that was a long time ago and not really violence, or not done by true Christians?
posted on October 17, 2001 03:50:03 PM newJust today I received a phone call from another faith asking if they could visit to witness to me. I politely said "no thank you". People knock on my door I am polite and kind and say "no thank you".
Im not picking on you terri...so please dont think it. However, that phrase you just said makes me want to do something with it...but since I am brain fried right now, I cant think of where to begin. Maybe I will just blather and stumble along and hope you get my drift, eh?
You didnt want to hear what THEY had to say, did you? Why? BEcause you have your faith and what tickles your ear, and have no interest in theirs, and what tickles theirs. They are wrong, you are right. They are right and you are wrong. Its SO STUPID. Those people who called you are not different than you when you come in here and preach to US.
And while Im at it, this phrase begs for something too...but Im still brain dead so here I go, stumbling again:
Of all the innocent people who are dying in Afghanistan, these people...predaceous missionaries... unwelcome and illegally proselytizing in a foreign country are the last humans that I would have any concern about.
At the moment, I dont give a rats patootey about the "innocent" afghanistan people dying. What I care about is OUR innocent people that are DEAD and being poisoned with creepie crawlies because some a$$hole has a beef against americans.
[ edited by Hepburn on Oct 17, 2001 03:52 PM ]
posted on October 17, 2001 04:14:34 PM new
Hepburn,
I saw a little Afganistani boy's picture yesterday...in his dirty clothes and big eyes that just looked so scared and I'll never forget it. This is what I mean by innocent people...not bin Ladin and his political criminal group.
posted on October 17, 2001 04:23:27 PM new
Helen, on purely moral grounds do you think we should leave the poor children with wide eyes at the mercy of the Taliban regime? I'm sure you heard about them before 9/11. What did you think then?
Afghanistan is war torn with or without us. There's a civil war raging there. People there my own age are battle tested soldiers of nearly a decade. Something like a quarter of all Afghans haven't lived in an Afghanistan that was not embroiled in war. They weren't born in such an Afghanistan.
How, pray tell, can we possibly be making things worse when we are there essentially to overthrow the Taliban? There is no way to overthrow them without violence and they are a violent, oppressive regime who is not meeting even the minimal standards of governance and is not offering even a minimal living standards for their subjects.
posted on October 17, 2001 04:39:09 PM new
"You didnt want to hear what THEY had to say, did you? Why?"
Good question Hepburn. That isn't accurate however. The people who contacted me were Mormons. What I actually told them was that someone has already visited me before, I accepted the Book of Mormon from them, talked with them for quite a long time, and did spend some time reading.
Though I did not convert to Church of Latter Day Saints, I did find some useful teachings in their materials. I have and read pretty often a motivational book on homemaking and family written by a Mormon woman. It is a delightful book. Their emphasis on family values is unsurpassed.
Jehovah's Witnesses have also visited me, I welcomed them in, shared views, thanked them for coming. They know scripture REALLY well from memory, make me look like a dummy. I need search.
Almost every faith has something positive to gleen from.
I am surprised that you haven't noticed that I have quite a curiosity about other faiths and have never rejected hearing what they are about. Faith and religion in general interest me.
I even own KRSNA with introduction by George Harrison...kinda like the pictures of Brahma in the belly button lotus...and that's about it for that one.
posted on October 17, 2001 04:39:27 PM new
Did anyone watch the interview on Dateline or 20/20 (whatever) last night with the British woman journalist who just escaped from Afghanistan? She had snuck across the border to interview some Afhgan women.....
She only mentioned a couple of quotes, but one chilled me. She was talking to an Afghan woman who asked the journalist, "How many children do you have?"
"One", the journalist said.
"Hah!" spat the Afghan woman. "You western women only have one or two children! Here we have 15 children! When your little soldier boys are dead, we will have fifteen more to replace them!"
Yikes! I'm feeling less and less inclined to pity the "innocent"!
It's news to me that we are there to overthrow the Taliban. I had considered revenge, and as we were told by the Bush administration to find Bin Laden.
But then, bin laden 'is' the Taliban...so you must be right. I wish that we could wipe out poverty and oppression worldwide. With bombs, I don't think that's possible. This little boy will probably just become another orphan. I understand there are already about 500 there from the previous 20 years of war.
I hope that you are right, James.
I wonder if we are looking for cells in Cuba
and Banladesh?
