posted on October 17, 2001 06:23:54 PM new
• In an interview with Asian editors, Bush predicted
"people are going to get tired of the war on terrorism," but he promised to press on even if public support wavers "because I think it's the right
thing to do. That's what I am supposed to do."
To hear an elected (OK OK I know)supposedly elected leader declare it does not matter what the people may want is scary.
Brings up too many imaiges of Vietnam and the eternal war on drugs.
Will it be one of those never won but never stopped fiascos?
Something to keep in mind if you elect him for another term.
Assuming we have elections.
posted on October 17, 2001 06:30:09 PM new
Yes...Our mental dwa...hmmmm GIANT speaks again...
He better speak to daddy and ask him to write him a new script!.... They all seem to be hung up on the "VietNam" era script...Why is that? Because SOME make MUCHO MOOLA in war time?
posted on October 17, 2001 07:05:52 PM new
Plsmith, oil was found in Tibet a few months back. Back scratching time. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on October 17, 2001 07:30:24 PM new
I have been keeping my feelings to myself about Bush since 9-11, because as a country we have to pull together. I haven't changed my mind about him or the election. This is the worse scenario we could have ever imagined. But, I still think he would have found a way to start some little war. He and his gang could handle that. I just hope they can handle this war, and will know when to stop. Still very scarey having that bunch running our government.
posted on October 17, 2001 07:34:45 PM new
I would probably feel even more worried if Powell wasnt in the picture, but knowing he is, makes me feel just a tad better. Not much, but a tad. After all, there isnt much he can do if Bush still pushes the buttons over him.
posted on October 17, 2001 07:51:50 PM new
Go ahead and start to feel more worried. Powell was largely being used to serve a purpose. He's served it, you won't (and haven't been) seeing him as much as you used to.
posted on October 17, 2001 11:22:59 PM new
He's on record as saying, 'once my mind is made up there's no changing it'. American public be damned. The only thing that matters to Bush is what he wants to do. There's nothing worse than an arrogant idiot..
posted on October 18, 2001 06:58:26 AM new
What a way to start the day! Feeling like I should defend the current resident of the White House.
On one end, you have politicians who never have a true belief unless the polls tell them what the voters think is right. At the other end, you have the ones that speak their mind, vote their conscience, etc., no matter what the polls say.
In this one and only one instance, I agree with the sentiment that one should do what is right no matter what public opinion is.
posted on October 18, 2001 07:25:56 AM new
Unless you've got some evidence that Bush engineered the WTC/Pentagon bombings, I think comments like "I knew he'd find some way to engineer a war" are totally inappropriate.
I agree with Bush's comments. It's true that people will get tired of this war, and if anyone else had made the comment it would have been accepted as a truism and not a "Bushism." To me, this says much more about the morals and attention span of the American public than about the president.
By the way, I don't like Bush. But this is the position we are in now. The terrorist attacks are very real and we have to deal with it as best we can. You're entitled to your opinion, but the endless dogged whining isn't helping.
Anyway, I thought this thread was about some new vocabulary Bush invented. I found a good one on eBay the other day, a "manufactory-sealed Palm Pilot." Doubtful Bush will ever be known as the "education" president.
posted on October 18, 2001 07:26:40 AM new
Sadie - I have no desire to flame anyone. I guess the worry is not that he will do something as that he will do it ineffectively - for a long time. We shall see what happens. They already had one chance to knock off the head Taliban and passed it up because some lawyers were looking over their shoulders wringing their hands. The US has just gotten in a pattern of half-heartedly prosecuting it's battles the last half century. I know I am an untrusting cynical person.
posted on October 18, 2001 07:57:06 AM new
Plsmith,
I don't intend to involve myself in this Bush bashing thread, except to answer your question.
"Why the heck is he on a trade mission to China right now, anyway?"
The fact that China has a billion people (give or take) and has a border with a country that we are bombing could have something to do with the trip.
[ edited by Tex1 on Oct 18, 2001 07:59 AM ]
posted on October 18, 2001 08:56:19 AM new
What is to be said? The writing was on the wall: we really do NOT have a mental giant here; adding to that the fact that he has such an inappropriate Napoleon syndrom, and this is what one gets.
The majority of Americans love their country, including myself. It does not mean we have to like commander-in-chief...Has nothing to do with patriotism.
Many Afghani people cannot stand the Talibanand wish for it to be over-turned. does not mean they do not love their country. Sure, soon, there will be nothing left to love
Speaking to a South Korean journalist, Bush said: "He won't meet with you; he won't meet with us -- which kind of leads me to believe that perhaps he doesn't want to meet
How can anyone foreign dignitary have any sense of awe, respect and confidence when hearing such comments!
This is not about Bush-bashing, but about reality...
posted on October 18, 2001 09:56:13 AM new
It's official. We have gone from the "Greatest Generation" to the "Grossest Generation" in a half century.
If those who are buried in military cemetaries could hear the words said here, they would arise from their graves and take up arms against the philosophies displayed here. They did not lay down their lives to "defend our freedom for ourselves and our posterity" in the expectation that said posterity would turn out to be chattering pantywaists.
Those who pine for a "mental giant" to lead us should remember that the "Best and the Brightest" -- all with impecicle pedigrees from top drawer Ivy League colleges -- oversaw the beastly quagmire that was Vietnam.
Wars are won and countries best run by those whose greatness is not measured on the verbal portion of the S.A.T. but rather by the inner strenghth of character where ones actions are guided by an unyielding commitment to do what is right and moral for our country and humanity.
posted on October 18, 2001 11:45:47 AM new
Remember, Congress gave the president the power to engage in war (without specific Congressional approval for each move), and they can take it away. I support Bush in this war but if he does continue when the people feel it is time to stop, just let your representatives in Congress know your feelings.
[ edited by lindajean on Oct 18, 2001 11:48 AM ]
posted on October 18, 2001 12:10:17 PM new Military record of the "Moral Giant":
1. Pulled Strings to Get In.
On May 27, 1968, George Bush Jr. was 12 days away from losing his student draft deferment, at a time when 350 Americans a week were dying in combat. The National Guard, seen by many as the most respectable way to avoid Vietnam, had a huge waiting list -- a year and a half in Texas, over 100,000 men nationwide. Yet Bush and his family friends pulled strings, and the young man was admitted the same day he applied, regardless of any waiting list.
Bush's unit commander, Col. "Buck" Staudt, was so excited about his VIP recruit that he staged a special ceremony for the press so he could have his picture taken administering the oath (even though the official oath had been given by a captain earlier.)
Bush and his allies have tried to deny this with several changing stories, but Bush himself admits lobbying commander Staudt, who approved him, and court documents confirm that close family friend and oil magnate Sid Adger called Texas Speaker of the House Ben Barnes, who called General James Rose, the head of the Texas Air National Guard, to get Bush in. Rose, who is now dead, told his friend and former legislator Jake Johnson that "I got that Republican congressman's son from Houston into the Guard."
Staudt's unit, the 147th, was infamous as a nesting place for politically connected and celebrity draft avoiders. Democratic Senator Lloyd Bentsen's son was in the unit, as was Republican Senator John Tower's, both of Sid Adger's sons and at least 7 members of the Dallas Cowboys.
2. Took a 2 month vacation in Florida after 8 weeks in the Guard.
Just 8 weeks after joining, Bush was granted 2 months leave to go to Florida and work on a political campaign, the Senate race of Republican Edward Gurney. Bush took a leave every election season, in 1970 to work on his dad's campaign, and in 1972 to work in Alabama.
3. Skipped Officer Candidate School and got a special commission as 2nd Lt.
As soon as Bush completed basic training, his commander approved him for a "direct appointment", which made him an officer without having to go through the usual (and difficult) Officer Candidate School. This special procedure also got Bush into flight school, despite his very low scores on aptitude tests -- he scored 25% on a pilot aptitude test, the absolute lowest acceptable grade, and 50% for navigator aptitude. (Bush did score 95% on the easier officer quality test, but then again the average is 88%).
What made Bush's appointment doubly unusual was his total lack of special qualifications. This procedure was generally reserved for applicants with exceptional experience or skills, such as ROTC training or engineering, medical or aviation skills. Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard, reviewed the Guard's records on Bush for a special exhibit on his service after Bush became governor. Asked about Bush's direct appointment without special skills, Hail said "I've never heard of that. Generally they did that for doctors only, mostly because we needed extra flight surgeons."
Charles Shoemake, an Air Force veteran who later joined the Texas Air National Guard and retired as a full colonel, said that direct appointments were rare and hard to get, and required extensive credentials. Asked about Bush, he said "His name didn't hurt, obviously. But it was a commander's decision in those days."
Despite Bush Jr.'s weak qualifications, Col. Staudt was so excited about the direct appointment that he saged another special ceremony for the press, this time with Bush's father the congressman standing prominently in the background.
The direct appointment process was discontinued in the 1970s.
4. Assigned to a safe plane -- the F-102 -- that was being phased out.
As Bush has been quick to note, National Guard members do face the chance of being called up for active duty, though few actually did during the Vietnam war. So what a lucky break for Bush that he was assigned to fly the F-102 Delta Dagger, a plane already being phased out. In fact, the Air Force had ordered all overseas F-102 units shut down as of June 30, 1970 -- just 3 months after Bush finished his training. Since training is so airplane specific, Bush was guaranteed from the beginning to be safe from combat.
Bush's campaign has even used his training on the obsolete plane to justify his early discharge, almost a year before his scheduled discharge, since other F-102 pilots were also being released early. But they can't answer the obvious question -- why spend so much money to train a National Guardsman for 2 years on a plane that was already being phased out, at a time when the Guard was letting F102 pilots leave early due to oversupply?
5. Celebrity Political Date.
During his flight training, Bush's celebrity showed in a couple of ways. Most famously, President Nixon sent a jet to pick up the young flight student for a date with his daughter Tricia. Alas, the potential political marriage and dynasty was not to be. Also, the commencement speaker at Bush's graduation ceremony was -- his dad, Congressman George Bush Sr.
6. Illegal, overruled transfer to a base with no work.
In 1972, Bush once again wanted to work on a political campaign, this time in Alabama. He applied for a transfer to a nearly defunct base with no active training or work, the 9921st Air Reserve Squadrom at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. Bush's supervisors approved, but a higher headquarters overruled them, noting that the unit had no regular drills.
Lt. Col. Reese Bricken, the unit's commander, told the Boston Globe "We met just one weeknight a month. We were only a postal unit. We had no airplanes. We had no pilots. We had no nothing." Even Albert Lloyd Jr., a retired Air Guard colonel who is helping the Bush campaign clarify the candidate's service, told the Globe he was mystified why Bush's superiors at the time would approve duty at such a unit. Lloyd was personnel director of the Texas Air Guard from 1969 to 1995.
Now, the officer who did that has stepped forward and very directly admitted that he tried to get the easiest possible assignment for Bush. The personnel officer in charge of Bush's 147th Fighter Group, now-retired Col. Rufus G. Martin, says he tried to give Bush a light load when he told him to apply to the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron in Montgomery, Ala. Martin said in an interview that he knew Bush wasn't eligible for the 9921st, an unpaid, general training squadron that met once a week to hear lectures on first aid and the like. "However," he said, "I thought it was worth a try. . . . It was the least participation of any type of unit."
7. Just didn't show up for a year -- with no punishment.
National Guard records and Bush's own supervisor's and friends show no sign of him attending any drills or performing any service for nearly a year, from May 1972 until May 1973. This period began with Bush moving to Alabama for a political campaign.
He later applied to transfer to a base that had no work; the transfer was first approved, then cancelled. Bush did nothing for several months; then in September he applied to transfer to Alabama's 187th Tactical Recon group for 3 months. This was approved, but the unit's commander, General William Turnipseed, and his then admnistrative officer, Kenneth Lott, have both said that Bush never showed up. "Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not," said Turnipseed. "I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered."
Bush claims that he did some work in Alabama, but can't remember any details. “I can’t remember what I did,” he said. “I just—I fulfilled my obligation." Despite 2 years of searching through hundreds of records, his campaign has been unable to find any record of Bush's service there, nor could they find a single fellow serviceman who remembers his presence. The best they could produce was an ex-girlfriend from Alabama -- Emily Marks --who said George told her he would have to do some Guard duty later that year (1972) in Montgomery. But all that confirms is that he knew of his obligation.
In December 1972, Bush returned to Houston and was scheduled to resume duty there. But in May 1973, Bush's supervising pilots wrote in his annual efficiency report: "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report" (i.e. through April 30, 1972). Bush described one of the supervisors, the late Col. Jerry Killian, as a personal friend, so it's likely he would have noticed Bush and given him the benefit of the doubt. Later that month, two special orders commanded Bush to appear for active duty. He served 36 days of active duty during May, June and July before leaving the Guard early.
Amazingly, Bush was not disciplined in any way for his absence, and received an honorable discharge. Under Air National Guard rules at that time, guardsmen who missed duty could be reported to their Selective Service Board and inducted into the Army as draftees.
8. Skipped all his medical exams after they started drug tests.
In April 1972, the military started including routine drug tests in servicemen's annual physical exam, including urinalysis, questions about drugs and "a close examination of the nasal cavities" (for cocaine). According to the regulation, the medical took place in the month after the serviceman's birthday. For George W. Bush, this meant August 1972.
It was May, 1972 -- one month after the drug testing was announced -- that Bush stopped attending Guard duty. In August 1972, he was suspended from flight duty for failing to take his physical. (Click here to see the document.) A Bush campaign spokesman confirmed to the London Sunday Times that Bush knew he would be suspended. "He knew the suspension would have to take place." Bush never flew again, even though he returned to his Houston base where Guard pilots flew thousands of hours in the F-102 during 1973. The only barrier to him flying again was a medical exam (and his lack of attendance).
Careful readers will recall that when Bush issued his partial denial of drug use, he said (or implied) that he hadn't used them since 1974, but he pointedly refused to deny drug use before then, i.e. during his military service. Several sources have also indicated that it was in December, 1972 -- 4 months after his medical suspension -- that a drunk Bush Jr. challenged his father to a fist fight during an argument over the son's drunk driving. (He had run over a neighbor's garbage cans.) Shortly thereafter, Bush Sr. arranged for his son to do community service at an inner city Houston charity.
Bush's campaign aides first said he did not take the physical because he was in Alabama and his personal physician was in Houston. But flight physicals can be administered only by certified Air Force flight surgeons, and some were assigned at the time to Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, where Bush was living. The staff now admits that this explanation was wrong.
9. Left service 10 months early.
Even after that easy stint, Bush couldn't fulfill his obligation. He quickly made up the missed days he had to and applied for an early release, before he had to take his next annual physical exam (with drug test.) While the official discharge date was October 1, 1973, Bush's last day in uniform was actually July 31 -- a full 10 months before the end of his 6-year, part time commitment. Al Gore also requested and received an early discharge (from the Army, in his case) to go to school.
Weasel words; his story keeps changing.
When asked about his service, Bush has lied, changed his story repeatedly, and weaseled in a manner eerily reminiscent of Bill Clinton. First of all, he has flat-out lied. In his official autobiography, ''A Charge to Keep,'' Bush said he flew with his unit for ''several years'' after finishing flight training in June 1970. His campaign biography states that he flew with the unit until he won release from the service in September 1973, nine months early, for graduate school. Both statements are lies. Bush only flew with the 111th for one year and 10 months, until April 1972 when he was suspended for failing to take his medical exam (and drug test), and never flew again.
Then there is his Clintonesque weaseling and word choice. Bush and his campaign claimed that no Bush family or friends pulled strings. Under pressure, this changed to "All I know is anybody named George Bush did not ask him [Ben Barnes] for help." By that he meant, himself or his dad. Of course, it later came out in court that a close Bush friend, Simon Adger, had asked Barnes to get Bush Jr. into the Guard, and that Barnes did so, via General Rose.
Now's it's not even clear that a George Bush didn't ask for help. When pressed, the former president's spokeswoman (Jean Becker) said he is "almost positive" that he and Mr. Adger never discussed the Guard matter. "He [Bush Sr.] he is fairly certain - I mean he doesn't remember everything that happened in the 1960s..." In any case, Bush Sr. and Adger were very close. Ms. Becker acknowledged that "President Bush knew Sid Adger well. He loved him." Adger may have needed only a hint.
Furthermore, George Bush Jr. admits that he knew Adger socially at the time, and further admits that he lobbied Col. "Buck" Staudt, the commander of the VIP unit Bush joined. Staudt claims that he, not General Rose (who he later replaced), was the one who made the decision on admissions anyway. Bush Jr. admits that he met Staudt in late 1967, during Christmas vacation of his senior year, called him later, and -- in Bush's words -- "found out what it took to apply."
When asked how Bush came to call Staudt, his spokeswoman Karen Hughes said he "heard from friends while he was home over the Christmas break that ... Colonel Staudt was the person to contact." She says that Bush doesn't recall who those "friends" were. But we know that Sid Adger was also a friend of Staudt's, served with him on the Houston Chamber of Commerce's Aviation Committee, and in 1967 held a luncheon honoring Gen. Staudt and his unit for winning an Air Force commendation. In fact, both of Adger's sons also joined General Staudt's unit, in 1966 and 1968 respectively.
Bush and his staff also claim that he vaulted ahead of the Air Guard waiting list because he was willing to fly an airplane, and there were openings. There is nothing to support this claim, however. For one thing, the F-102 was being phased out at the time and F-102 pilots were being released from service early, as indeed Bush himself was. And Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard, says flatly that there was no pilot shortage in the Guard squadron at that time. Bush's unit had 27 pilots at the time he applied; while they were authorized for 29 pilots, there were two more already in training and one awaiting a transfer.
Bush also weasels on whether he was avoiding combat or not. He has stated on several occasions that he did not want to be an infantryman, and acknowledges that he came to oppose the war itself. He claims that he joined the guard to fly planes, and would have been happy to go to Vietnam, but ignores the obvious choice of the Air Force or the Navy -- which his dad, a genuine war hero, joined. Furthermore, when he signed up for the Guard, he checked a box saying "Do not volunteer for overseas service." Later, he made a perfunctory application to transfer to a program called "Palace Alert", which dispatched F-102 pilots to Europe or the Far East -- and just occasionally Vietnam -- for 3 or 6 month assignments. But Bush was not nearly qualified, as he must have known, and was immediately turned down, and the F-102 not used overseas after June, 1970 in any case.
And, as noted above, his story also changed on why he refused to take a medical exam -- including a drug test - in 1972. (The refusal ended Bush's flying career.) His staff first claimed that he didn't take the physical because he was in Alabama and his personal physician was in Houston. But flight physicals can be administered only by certified Air Force flight surgeons, and there were surgeons assigned at the time to Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, where Bush was living. His staff now admits that that explanation was "wrong", without saying where it came from or what the real reason was. Draft & National Guard Sources
posted on October 18, 2001 12:30:03 PM new
Ah, but don't you see, CoolTom, that I didn't put Bill Clinton forth as a "moral giant"?
George W. Bush isn't one, either...
posted on October 18, 2001 12:39:27 PM new
twinsoft hit it on the head.this is no time to be bashing the president. i didnt vote for him but i support him now. i respect all the opinions here but my only stand right now is that of an american.
posted on October 18, 2001 01:10:11 PM new
Keep in mind that we live in a Republic, not a democracy. Which means that our esteemed leaders are supposed to be able to act according to what they believe are our best interests, and not necessarily what we tell them we want.
From James Madison's Federalist #10:
The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are: first, the delegation of the government in the latter to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; secondly, the greater number of citizens and greater sphere of country over which the latter may be extended.
The effect of the first difference is, on the one hand, to refine and enlarge the public views, by passing them through the medium of a chosen body of citizens, whose wisdom may best discern the true interest of their country, and whose patriotism and love of justice will be least likely to sacrifice it to temporary or partial considerations.
Sounds good in theory, at least. Now all we need is an elected president who has the requisite "wisdom"...
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on October 18, 2001 01:24:05 PM new
plsmith: With the exception of the president making a bad decision during war time I do not see the point of bashing him. It is only a matter of remaining positive for me. All of the things you listed are moot during a time of war. I just choose to remain focused on matters at hand. I do not see the point of bashing him at this time. As I said I did not vote for him. All of the reasons I had for not voting for him seem very unimportant to me right now.
posted on October 18, 2001 01:45:01 PM new
"I do not see the point of bashing him at this time."
Quite honestly, Breinhold, I see a vast difference between poking fun at his odd command of english and "bashing" him. I posted his military service record in response to CoolTom's reference to soldiers who fought and died for this country and his suggestion that George W. Bush is a "moral giant".
We're all trying to find ways to cope with the war, terrorism, and our failing economy. Comic relief is a necessary part of the equation -- we are bombarded daily with grim, horrific news, and I, for one, find "Bushisms" funny and harmless.
I didn't vote for him, either, but frankly, I don't dislike the man. When all the hubbub over his daughters being arrested arose, I thought, "Well, finally! Here's a president with a normal family.
