posted on October 21, 2001 08:49:05 AM new
Marty, are you afraid that 'the Denver Post' message board might ultimately prove more attractive than AW? Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh.
posted on October 21, 2001 08:50:15 AM new
That's the Denver Post newspaper comment line for news, Marty. Not really the intent of the spirit of the CGs to prohibit that sort of thing, you think?
posted on October 21, 2001 08:55:34 AM new
"I want to see America become America again.."
I'm sure there are Native Americans who share that sentiment. Their idea of the end result might be different from yours.
America is like any system or population - it changes over time. Personally, I can't stand the conservatism that's found a foot hold since a certain someone coined the phrase, "Moral Majority." But the pendulum will swing back, I'm sure. I see it on this board. I see it in my community.
posted on October 21, 2001 08:58:20 AM new
'Scool, Marty.
I have to point out that the U.S. motto is E Pluribus Unum [out of many, one] which kind of negates the point of that email and not In God We Trust (although I agree with that sentiment too).
posted on October 21, 2001 09:07:46 AM newThe final battle against intolerance is to be fought--not in the chambers of any legislature--but in the hearts of men.
If the day comes when we can obey the orders of our courts only when we personally approve of them, the end of the American system will not be far off.
Dwight D. Eisenhower
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on October 21, 2001 09:15:43 AM new
Let us also not forget that Thomas Jefferson rewrote the Bible and that a man named Haym (Chaim) Solomon raised mony for and practically financed the American Revolution.
posted on October 21, 2001 09:16:16 AM new
James they are two good american motos
I think this rather pushes the point that Gaffen and KRS are makeing IN god we trust not any one faith, creed, Sect no matter where your from.
This is why many of the statement KRS posted said Religion separates man and god many people still havent got it Belief in god and worship is not about Religion at all.
faith its self is not something one has control over you are born into it Isrealis are a good exsample of this all are desendents of Abraham.
Chirstains as well Are born into there faith on an indivual bases for gentiles to recieve the promises of god they must be born again or born into the christ like faith..
When religion creeps into the picture people separate them selves from many of there brother and sisters since all people of faith are related from the begining and hatered creeps into the picture..
posted on October 21, 2001 09:18:48 AM new
I find it interesting that the Denver Post URL referred to is in their "Found a Low Gas Price?" online thread with the initial cut & paste of that blathering jingoistic circulating email having been made by someone using the handle "Ross." Complete coincidence that it so quickly found its way onto an online auctions format, too? Perhaps.
I think everyone needs to keep in mind that there are certain personalities who seem to think it as their place in society to see to it that various topics are thought out and debated with particular intensity, and raise highly-charged points more to encourage debate than to express their own opinions. In other words, "trolls."
posted on October 21, 2001 11:05:17 AM new
The fact is, no matter the now stated reasons for same, that the flags were ordered removed. I read in a Berkeley Newspaper, (can't find the link now) the reason was so that they wouldn't offend the Muslim community. Public pressure about the removal made the difference and they were replaced. I believe the posted URL states that too. As does the Mayor Of Berkeley's website. http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/mayor/default.htm
Same thing when the news got out about the Berkeley City Council's letter to the federal representatives requesting the US stop the bombing in Afghanistan ASAP. Then the City Council and other elected officials start hearing/receiving emails from thousands of people and companies who were going to boycott Berkeley. then they rethink their stance.
As far as other schools being told they can't have 'God Bless America' posters, flags, etc. up.....sure after much public pressure...and the President's support of same, now they're allowed to continue to do so. So easy now to state they're being allowed to do so, but it wasn't the case when they first started doing so.
KRS - When you made your pledge to your country, upon entering the armed forces, didn't you make a pledge that involved the use of the word "God" in some way? I believe you and all military recuits do. Am I wrong? I bring this up because of your posting of all the statements of past Presidents speaking to the issue of separation of church and state. Did you object to the use of the word "God" at that time?
[ edited by Linda_K on Oct 21, 2001 11:08 AM ]Trying once again.
[ edited by Linda_K on Oct 21, 2001 11:15 AM ]
posted on October 21, 2001 12:54:12 PM new
I just reached in my pocket and guess what? the money still says "in god we trust"! so before anyone thinks about running down or burning the flag, burn your terrible american money and starve. then i will know you are sincere. GOD BLESS AMERICA! period
posted on October 21, 2001 01:02:55 PM newBreinhold You've got money in your pocket....why that sounds almost unAmerican!! Religion & Politics are NOT the same as Church and State.
In 1954 the "under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance so there must have been the same phrase used when krs took the pledge in 69 or thereabouts.
posted on October 21, 2001 03:04:10 PM new
As usual, an illogical, even nonsensical comparison between a philosophy of government and the requirement to take oath, but as I best recall there was a choice given each entrant to the service as to how the oath was worded in particulars. Whatever it was or wasn't is not at all relevant to the issues of a separation of church and state because the state is a governmental affair and the military is not that, but instead is somewhat an autocratic affair in which rhe conscripted do essentially be relieved of constitutional rights for the duration and become as property. What the question has to do with my response to the incorrect claim that the founding fathers of this country were christains and the country was founded on christian values is quite beyond me.
posted on October 21, 2001 04:12:15 PM new
The word God has been often used in many ways that involve our government....for a very long time.
We could argue forever each and every place that it is used/has been used, but I think most people here are aware that it is part of our history. That's my point.
And as recent as 1996 a proclamation by clinton was signed, 'in the year of our Lord'. Now where would that have come from? How often do we use terms like that in this day and age? Must have begun somewhere in our American history. http://www.usflag.org/clinton.html
So your memory fails you about the military oath you took. uh huh. And I don't suppose you remember saying the Pledge of Allegiance to your flag during any of your service time either.
You seem to imply (to me) that use of the word God, has not been a long part of our country's history. Many prayers are said daily, by our elected officals when they meet. Why are they still doing that? Up until Kennedy's election, it was very important to voters what particular religion a candidate was. I personally remember a lot of voters being concerned because he was a Catholic.
Many in this country are tired of feeling like they can't have their flag displayed because it may offend someone, and I'm one of them.
Many who welcome foreigners to our country would like them to speak English.
And if they want to become citizens at least pledge their allegiance to our country. Doesn't it bother you, just a tiny bit, that 15,000 Muslim servicemen were waiting to get a fatwa from their cleric leader (religion being practiced here) in order to obey the oath they took when they enlisted in our military? They weren't sure they could fight against other Muslims. Would you have wanted one of them in your unit when, maybe, their cleric changes their minds/fatwa.
That email line item by line item is upsetting many in our country. Not many here, obviously. But then again, I've come to see that this board is not representative of how many voters feel/think. That's why when some of these flags are being removed, a city not supporting our country's decisions after the WTC destruction, God Bless America signs being asked to be taken down etc. the public is lashing out, demanding their return. And it's working.
I was so proud when I saw the firemen righting that pole with our flag on it in the mess that used to be the WTC. Pride...I felt pride.
I guess I just have a different view of how our country was than you do, how it used to be. And I'd like to see it return to a lot of that. May never happen, but then again....who knows.
posted on October 21, 2001 04:36:54 PM new
Oh bull. You're just making a smokescreen to divert attention from the fact that the long standing claim of the christian sects that this country's founding fathers were christian and the country was established in christian principle is hogwash.
I'm supposed to have etched in my memory some step in the induction process that occured 34 years ago? Ridiculous, and a pretty stupid thing to propose. Do you think POSSIBLY that there might have been other things on the minds of all of those inductees, some 200 or more at once, herded into a room at a large induction center in their underwear after having run a gamut of physical tests, interviews, and issuances of information that no one could understand and which had begun at 4:00 am and continued without letup all day? Do you think?
"We could argue forever each and every place that it is used/has been used, but I think most people here are aware that it is part of our history. That's my point."
Tradition lingers past it's usefulness which all began as pagan beliefs. So you say it's part of our history...so what? It began during the Civil war when slavery was part of our history.
posted on October 21, 2001 05:43:00 PM new
Sorry for the caps.
HI MOM AND DAD...
IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR? THIS IS WHAT I SAID WHEN I ENLISTED
AND WHEN I REENLISTED...
I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC;
THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD.
This is the code of conduct we all live by...
I I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
II I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.
III If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
IV If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.
V When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
VI I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
posted on October 21, 2001 05:54:32 PM new
Notice, if possible, that the term "my god" does not make any requirement as to which or even how many god(s) may be trusted.
My dogtags, which I do still have say "no preferenee" for religious affiliation. I remember the woman who asked that in filling out one of innumerable forms saying "Oh, I can't put THAT" when I specified "athiest" when asked, and I've thought ever since that the prospect so upset her that she was brought to mispell "preference". Whatever, none of it is on point at all, as usual.
That oaths are required at all has nothing whatever to do with the claim that the founding fathers were christians or anything else for the matter. Maybe lindaK can now produce George Washington's oath of office?
LOL!
Nevermind, here it is:
Fellow-Citizens of the Senate and of the House of Representatives:
Among the vicissitudes incident to life no event could have filled me with greater anxieties than that of which the notification was transmitted by your order, and received on the 14th day of
the present month. On the one hand, I was summoned by my country, whose voice I can never hear but with veneration and love, from a retreat which I had chosen with the fondest
predilection, and, in my flattering hopes, with an immutable decision, as the asylum of my declining years -- a retreat which was rendered every day more necessary as well as more dear
to me by the addition of habit to inclination, and of frequent interruptions in my health to the gradual waste committed on it by time. On the other hand, the magnitude and difficulty of the
trust to which the voice of my country called me, being sufficient to awaken in the wisest and most experienced of her citizens a distrustful scrutiny into his qualifications, could not but
overwhelm with despondence one who (inheriting inferior endowments from nature and unpracticed in the duties of civil administration) ought to be peculiarly conscious of his own
deficiencies. In this conflict of emotions all I dare aver is that it has been my faithful study to collect my duty from a just appreciation of every circumstance by which it might be affected.
All I dare hope is that if, in executing this task, I have been too much swayed by a grateful remembrance of former instances, or by an affectionate sensibility to this transcendent proof of
the confidence of my fellow-citizens, and have thence too little consulted my incapacity as well as disinclination for the weighty and untried cares before me, my error will be palliated by
the motives which mislead me, and its consequences be judged by my country with some share of the partiality in which they originated.
Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my
fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His
benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every
instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I
assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow-citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the
Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have
been distinguished by some token of providential agency; and in the important revolution just accomplished in the system of their united government the tranquil deliberations and voluntary
consent of so many distinct communities from which the event has resulted can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been established without some return of
pious gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage. These reflections, arising out of the present crisis, have forced themselves too
strongly on my mind to be suppressed. You will join with me, I trust, in thinking that there are none under the influence of which the proceedings of a new and free government can more
auspiciously commence.
By the article establishing the executive department it is made the duty of the President "to recommend to your consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient."
The circumstances under which I now meet you will acquit me from entering into that subject further than to refer to the great constitutional charter under which you are assembled, and
which, in defining your powers, designates the objects to which your attention is to be given. It will be more consistent with those circumstances, and far more congenial with the feelings
which actuate me, to substitute, in place of a recommendation of particular measures, the tribute that is due to the talents, the rectitude, and the patriotism which adorn the characters
selected to devise and adopt them. In these honorable qualifications I behold the surest pledges that as on one side no local prejudices or attachments, no separate views nor party
animosities, will misdirect the comprehensive and equal eye which ought to watch over this great assemblage of communities and interests, so, on another, that the foundation of our
national policy will be laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality, and the preeminence of free government be exemplified by all the attributes which can win the affections
of its citizens and command the respect of the world. I dwell on this prospect with every satisfaction which an ardent love for my country can inspire, since there is no truth more
thoroughly established than that there exists in the economy and course of nature an indissoluble union between virtue and happiness; between duty and advantage; between the genuine
maxims of an honest and magnanimous policy and the solid rewards of public prosperity and felicity; since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never
be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained; and since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the
republican model of government are justly considered, perhaps, as deeply, as finally, staked on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people.
Besides the ordinary objects submitted to your care, it will remain with your judgment to decide how far an exercise of the occasional power delegated by the fifth article of the
Constitution is rendered expedient at the present juncture by the nature of objections which have been urged against the system, or by the degree of inquietude which has given birth to
them. Instead of undertaking particular recommendations on this subject, in which I could be guided by no lights derived from official opportunities, I shall again give way to my entire
confidence in your discernment and pursuit of the public good; for I assure myself that whilst you carefully avoid every alteration which might endanger the benefits of an united and
effective government, or which ought to await the future lessons of experience, a reverence for the characteristic rights of freemen and a regard for the public harmony will sufficiently
influence your deliberations on the question how far the former can be impregnably fortified or the latter be safely and advantageously promoted.
To the foregoing observations I have one to add, which will be most properly addressed to the House of Representatives. It concerns myself, and will therefore be as brief as possible.
When I was first honored with a call into the service of my country, then on the eve of an arduous struggle for its liberties, the light in which I contemplated my duty required that I should
renounce every pecuniary compensation. From this resolution I have in no instance departed; and being still under the impressions which produced it, I must decline as inapplicable to
myself any share in the personal emoluments which may be indispensably included in a permanent provision for the executive department, and must accordingly pray that the pecuniary
estimates for the station in which I am placed may during my continuance in it be limited to such actual expenditures as the public good may be thought to require.
Having thus imparted to you my sentiments as they have been awakened by the occasion which brings us together, I shall take my present leave; but not without resorting once more to the
benign Parent of the Human Race in humble supplication that, since He has been pleased to favor the American people with opportunities for deliberating in perfect tranquillity, and
dispositions for deciding with unparalleled unanimity on a form of government for the security of their union and the advancement of their happiness, so His divine blessing may be equally
conspicuous in the enlarged views, the temperate consultations, and the wise measures on which the success of this Government must depend.
posted on October 21, 2001 06:04:09 PM new
krs - Hard to have a conversation with someone when they won't answer any questions being asked of them. So much easier to keep trying to draw me back to a statement I never made. I never once said any one particular God. I've said all along that the word God is currently being used in many governmental actions, and has been for much of our country's history.
posted on October 21, 2001 06:39:47 PM new
To address that one statement about "In God We Trust"
That was brought in first as a motto on coins in 1861. It did not appear on paper money until 1957. Of course a lot of people will tell you there is no basis for legally allowing the printing of paper money by the Feds anyway - just coins. Here is an url from an athiest's web site that accurately tells the history of this phrase whether you agree with their other expressed opinions or not.
posted on October 21, 2001 06:51:49 PM new
What? LindaK has not taken the opportunity to point up ol' George's mention of some power and call it substantiation of her non point? Amazing. And it leaves me without the followup chance to politely point out that George made no oath there but rather only addressed the congress in his inaugural speech.
posted on October 21, 2001 07:01:18 PM new
Linda_K, I asked my husband about his induction into the Air Force and what he remembered about his oath. He was inducted in 1967 and his recollection is similar to krs's. He could only remember the part of the oath about defending the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Although he's now an atheist, his dogtags said Protestant. I think at that time, with the draft in force, the US government didn't care if you had religion or not, it wanted bodies. My husband had a long history of asthma, but the Air Force took him. If he had said that he objected to the reference to God, I doubt that it would have made one iota of difference with the Air Force. If it had, I'm sure the Army or Marines would have snapped him up. Even religious Conscientious Objectors had to serve in some capacity. I know some COs who served in state hospitals or even in military jails.
posted on October 21, 2001 08:12:23 PM new
Linda the oath has not changed. It is the same oath I took in 1961.
KRS, The choice was I affirm, or I do Somemnly Swear.
By the way I knew quite a few Marines that had Athiest on thier Dog Tags. Later some of them changed it, some did not.
The First Prayer in Congress Held in Carpenters Hall
Philadelphia - September 7. 1774
Be Thou present; O God of Wisdom, and direct the councils of this Honorable Assembly: enable them to settle all things on the best and surest foundations: that the scene of blood may be speedily closed: that Order, Harmony and Peace may be effectually restored, and Truth, and Justice, Religion, and Piety prevail and flourish among the people. Preserve the health of their bodies and the vigor of their minds, shower down on them, and the millions they here represent, such temporal Blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world, and crown them with everlasting Glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ Thy Son and Our Savior. Amen
posted on October 21, 2001 08:27:46 PM new
Army Officer Appointment Acceptance and Oath of Office
I (insert name), having been appointed a (insert rank) in the U.S. Army under the conditions indicated in this document, do accept such appointment and do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter, so help me God
Enlisted Oath.
''I, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
posted on October 21, 2001 08:55:26 PM newWhat the question has to do with my response to the incorrect claim that the founding fathers of this country were christains and the country was founded on christian values is quite beyond me.
(He makes typos when he gets flustered.)
Not hard to understand, my prolific pal. To put it another way, if there is truly a separation between church and state, then why does the state require conscriptees to swear an oath to God?
Oh, I'm sure you knew that. You're feigning ignorance as some sort of debate tactic, right?
Religion & Politics are NOT the same as Church and State.