I don't believe that I could be classified as a peacemaker. All of the Round Table is probably laughing at that idea.
I would prefer to call myself a humanitarian and I am serious about that. I have the same compassion for a talaban child as I do my own.
We will just have to disagree on the question of this war. This action by the Bush administration is strategically wrong. When trying to locate a worldwide network of terrorists, it is clearly a tatical error of enormous proportions to bomb into oblivion a country like Afghanistan while justifying the action by the fact that Osama bin Laden has based his operations there.
The truth is that Osama bin Laden has been exploiting their fundamentalist religion, using their land and recruiting his suicide terrorists from their impoverished people.
And since you are a history major you must know also the role that the United States played in establishing the Taliban. We were wrong to help to establish it and we have no right to destroy it.
So we will just have to disagree about how to wage a war on terrorism.
posted on November 7, 2001 05:47:31 AM new
Beautifully stated, DeSquirrel. Thank you for stating so eloquently what I have tried to say myself!
As for immigrants, there is a major difference between immigrants of the past and many of the ones we are getting today.
When the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, the Chinese, came to America, it was to make a better life for themselves. They came ready to work for that life. Maybe they did retain their old customs and language. But they also learned English, got jobs, encouraged their children to get educations.
So many of the immigrants we get today come for a better life also....they come with their hands out, saying what can you do for me? They come for the welfare they don't get at home, the food stamps, the medical care, the education. They don't come to MAKE a better life for themselves, they come to DEMAND it, whether they attempt to work or not. They were a drain on the country they came from, and they're a drain on this one.
Blast away at me-I have seen this in the schools over and over again. That's what makes people resent immigrants, not their culture.
posted on November 7, 2001 06:25:49 AM newBearmom, I don't know where you live or what immigrants you see. I live in California and there is a large number of Mexican immigrants. I only wish we had more of them. They have a strong work ethic, a strong family ethic, and despite little help from the government, they try hard to become integrated. Mexicans here do the jobs no one else will touch, working as laborers, janitors, in fast food restaraunts, etc.
In the town where I live, there is a high percentage of Chinese. They have been here for several generations. To their credit, they work hard to preserve their language and culture. The crime rate among Chinese is almost non-existent.
I am right in the middle of Silicon Valley. We also have a large number of Indians, mostly working as programmers and computer technicians. They are hard-working, well-mannered and well-educated. There is no crime among Indians.
It is sad to see people criticize immigrants for trying to sustain their own culture and language. Our government makes little or no attempt to bring immigrants into American culture. The vast majority of immigrants are simply looking to build a better life for their families. Immigrants are not the problem. Attitudes like yours are the real problem.
posted on November 7, 2001 08:07:44 AM new
Bearmom,
<<<<<
"So many of the immigrants we get today come for a better life also....they come with their hands out, saying what can you do for me? They come for the welfare they don't get at home, the food stamps, the medical care, the education. They don't come to MAKE a better life for themselves, they come to DEMAND it, whether they attempt to work or not. They were a drain on the country they came from, and they're a drain on this one"
<<<<
You say that you have seen this in schools?
I sincerely hope that you are not a teacher.
I hope that you are not working with these people which you regard with such incredible disrespect.
I have tried to respond to your comment in a civil manner but I don't have the patience right now.
posted on November 7, 2001 08:36:40 AM new
I don't know how you all find bearmom so off the mark. Most of the immigrants I speak to professionally (not shop keepers or gas station attendants) are all "going home" eventually.
posted on November 7, 2001 08:43:47 AM new
DeSquirrel, I don't think that's the part of her remarks I was reacting to. For myself, I would expect most immigrants to often experience some dislocation and therefore ambivalent desires about which country they consider "home" at any point in time. Expressing verbally the desire to return home is often a heartfelt wish that deep inside they may recognize as emotionally desirable (especially if they still have family there), but on a purely practical level unlikely to happen. IOW, it's a common pleasant fantasy that isn't always acted on.
The part I objected to was this...
...they come with their hands out, saying what can you do for me? They come for the welfare they don't get at home, the food stamps, the medical care, the education. They don't come to MAKE a better life for themselves, they come to DEMAND it, whether they attempt to work or not. They were a drain on the country they came from, and they're a drain on this one.
That doesn't fit with the people I've known in my life that have immigrated from other countries.
posted on November 7, 2001 08:57:53 AM new
I don't think this would generally apply to legal immigrants with visas, but I'm not so sure about illegal immigrants. This is a country that does not check on anything and there are millions of illegals receiving tax dollars.
posted on November 7, 2001 09:14:54 AM new
Where did you find this data that you refer to DeSquirrel? I'd like to see that corroborated in a study because it conflicts with my experience and some things I've read.
posted on November 7, 2001 09:41:07 AM new
Twinsoft, you don't mention that the Indians are here on work visa's, and here to make money not to become citizens. Since the crash in Silicon Valley many have already gone home because they've lost their jobs. There was an interesting interview with a Indian restaurant owner who may have to close his business. He said he opened the restaurant because of the high percentage of people looking for ethnic Indian food. He was interviewed during lunch time and there were two people in the restaurant. He said before there was a line out the door waiting to be seated.
Take a ride down to Redwood City, and visit Little Mexico around Middlefield Rd., it might be an eye opener for you. Or, visit a county hospitol and see who the patients are. They have to have interpreters for so many languages you'd be suprised.
As far as, education, Mexican teens have the highest dropout rate of all minorities. They aren't working either so what are they doing with their time? As adults without an education they will continue to take jobs no one else wants.
I said immigrants want to go home, so don't blame bearmom for that. Yep, most of them never make it back to their homeland, so then why don't they become US citizens?
posted on November 7, 2001 10:45:36 AM new
My experience with immigrants has been similar to twinsoft's. There are a lot of Hispanic landscape workers here. They work hard and often move on to open their own companies. Companies recruited many of the Indians who came here with work visas to work in technology fields - there was a shortage of personnel to do the work. Personally I've only known one individual who has tried to scam government and private agencies since he's been here.
My sister who is in the medical field has a different opinion than mine. She sees hospital and nursing home beds filled with illegal immigrants with no relatives and contacts in the US. Gun battles, car accidents, barroom brawls, AIDS, and coronary disease put them in hospitals and nursing homes with no way to pay other than our subsidies. She worries that the amount of cash available to tax paying citizens for Medicare (or Medicaid) assistance will disappear because illegal aliens are taking up so many beds. (Sometimes things even out - my mother tripped when in Iceland many years ago and didn't have to pay for her hospital trip even when she offered to do so, so Americans abroad can get free medical coverage if they happen to be in the right place.)
posted on November 7, 2001 01:58:14 PM new
Much depends on the culture and education level of the immigrants--as well as the area they chose to settle in.
The latter goes especially for illegal aliens. And, as Saabsister notes, it can also depend on what sector you are in. Health care and social services workers are going to see much more of the abuses than the "average joe."
Donny: you took great exception, I believe, to an earlier statment I made that many immigrants have no desire to become American citizens. This is from the INS site www.ins.usdoj.gov:
"As of 1995, for example, 22 percent of the Mexicans who immigrated in 1977 had naturalized, compared with the 48% of the immigrants from all other countries who had naturalized."
48% is bad enough--but 22%?!? Yeah, they just can't wait to become Americans.
posted on November 7, 2001 02:28:54 PM new
"Donny: you took great exception, I believe, to an earlier statment I made that many immigrants have no desire to become American citizens."
You believe wrongly. This is the quote of yours I used:
"It goes on & on. And in some ways the new "multiculturalism" is destroying this country--instead of encouraging emigrants to become American, it is telling them to keep their old national identity."
This thread had never been about becoming American citizens, but about becoming "Americans." If you want to say it's about citizenship now, go ahead, but
your complaint has been about multicultuarlism, about new immigrants not embracing your idea of what American culture is, not conforming to your White Bread viewpoint, and your concern that "They learn that it is a waste of time to read things written by white Europeans."
Not about keeping their old national citizenship, but, your own words, their old national identity.
To illustrate that this thread hasn't been about a complaint that immigrants don't want to obtain citizenship, but about a complaint that those of different ethnicity aren't "American" enough to suit, here's another quote from you, in this thread:
"And it's true. Even some that are born here in the US claim allegiance instead to other countries. And that *does* rankle."
Obviously, people who are born in the U.S. are automatically U.S. citizens. So your complaint is not about the lack of citizenship at all but, as I said, that those of different ethnicity aren't "American" enough to suit you, according to what your idea of "American" is.
posted on November 7, 2001 02:37:30 PM newThis thread had never been about becoming American citizens, but about becoming "Americans."
Actually, this thread started out to be about Afghani casualties (or purported ones, anyway). And anyway, you're playing with semantics when you try to differentiate between being an "American" and an "American citizen". One is not truly an "American" unless one becomes a citizen.
posted on November 7, 2001 02:45:41 PM newObviously, people who are born in the U.S. are automatically U.S. citizens. So your complaint is not about the lack of citizenship at all but, as I said, that those of different ethnicity aren't "American" enough to suit you, according to what your idea of "American" is.
Again totally ignoring what I actually said to put your own spin and labeling in. I said: "Even some that are born here in the US claim allegiance instead to other countries. And that *does* rankle."
Where does "American enough" come in, Donny? Should it not rankle if someone who was born here, is an American citizen, puts another nation ahead of their birthplace in allegiance? No matter what the ethnic background? At political rallies, sporting events, whatever waves the flag of another country claiming it for their own, singing that country's anthem instead of that of the country of their birth?
And as for trying to make a difference between "becoming Americans" and "becoming citizens"...to quote you: HOGWASH.
posted on November 7, 2001 02:52:35 PM new
"Again totally ignoring what I actually said to put your own spin and labeling in. I said:..."
But I didn't ignore what you acutally said. I quoted what you actually said, and then you requoted the quote of yours I had already quoted.
Like I said, Bunnicula, good try, and it was. But, the thread that deals with immigrants not wanting to obtain citizenship is another thread.
The multiculturalism discussion here was never about citizenship, but on keeping old national identity. Your figures won't have to go to waste, just use them for your appropriate complaint (the other thread.)
posted on November 7, 2001 02:57:21 PM new
I do believe that you are confusing "culture" with "national identity."
The former refers to language, dress, foods, religion, celebrations, etc. The latter refers to what nation you claim as your own.
Edited to say: and that *does* tie in with what I said before. Ignoring what you don't like doesn't change thge facts.
[ edited by bunnicula on Nov 7, 2001 02:59 PM ]
posted on November 7, 2001 02:58:52 PM new
I guess it all depends on how you define citizen. TO ME becoming a citizen somewhere does not mean signing a form and jumping over a stick.
Suppose one of the ladies decided to become a Saudi citizen. I presume parading around in too tight jeans and excess cleavage would be "preserving your culture" but it is an insult to your new country.
Now if someone wants to wait on me in a turban that's fine. But if you tell me I have to pay taxes to have classes in Arabic in my local school so we can all live blissfully together, forget it.
ie: this is the United States whose population is AMERICAN. If you are talking about being a hyphenated American, it better be cuisine or fashion.
posted on November 7, 2001 03:15:47 PM newAs soon as one is a citizen, one is an American. There's no "truly" about it.
Now that's a true statement, and despite your attempts to appear clever, by this statement, This thread had never been about becoming American citizens, but about becoming "Americans." YOU are the one who is playing word games.
Point goes to Bunnicula.
KatyD
(edited for missing word)
[ edited by KatyD on Nov 7, 2001 03:17 PM ]
posted on November 7, 2001 03:20:53 PM new
Perhaps it would be easier, Bunnicula, if you clearly identified what your complaint is.
Is it, as you first said, multiculturalism? Is it that American citizens aren't "American" enough to suit you ("Even some that are born here in the US claim allegiance instead to other countries. And that *does* rankle." ), or is it that immigrants don't choose to obtain citizenship (48% is bad enough--but 22%?!? Yeah, they just can't wait to become Americans.)
You keep on switching around. Perhaps your observation about America and its ruination is akin to my long departed Grandmother's observation on her return from a trip to Mexico - "It would be all right, if it wasn't for all those damn foreigners."
posted on November 7, 2001 04:57:21 PM new
Hi, Chococake. Yes, many of the Indians are here only to work. The dot-com crash has severly affected the job market here, with tech businesses laying off tens of thousands. Still, the Indians that live here are well-mannered and well-educated.
I'm familiar with the area of Redwood City you mentioned, including the popular Mercata grocery store. It's a poor neighborhood, and there are a lot of Hispanics there. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that other than Mexicans are not in the high-paying jobs.
You mention a high drop-out rate. I would guess that is because many Mexicans are busy raising families. Most Mexicans, unlike Americans, don't wait until their 30s to start a family. In my opinion, that is to their credit. I don't know why you say Mexicans aren't working. Just recently Mountain View closed down the day worker center where employers could find cheap labor. Last year, day laborers were banned from standing on the street. So I wouldn't say they aren't trying to get work. Our local government is doing everything possible to prevent them from working.
Anyway, I forgot you live very close to here. Howdy, neighbor!
I'm not familiar with a case where an American-born citizen waves the flag of another country, etc., though I suppose it's possible. On the other hand, I've often heard complaints from intolerant whites like, "This is America - speak English!" In times of economic distress, immigrants are a popular target.
I myself hold dual citizenship. I can hardly criticize those of, say, Mexican descent for trying to preserve their culture.
posted on November 7, 2001 05:54:40 PM newdonny: Try re-reading my original post on the subject. Then the rest. Do so without putting your own spin on what I said. Then we can have a discussion on the subject.
posted on November 7, 2001 06:42:01 PM new
I quoted you as saying, Bunnicula, that:
"And it's true. Even some that are born here in the US claim allegiance instead to other countries. And that *does* rankle."
And in reply to my posting the above quote, you posted this:
"Again totally ignoring what I actually said to put your own spin and labeling in. I said: "Even some that are born here in the US claim allegiance instead to other countries. And that *does* rankle." "
posted on November 7, 2001 07:25:55 PM new
Shrug all you like--you still haven't addressed the statement as I said it. What is there about it you don't understand or don't want to face?
posted on November 7, 2001 09:21:03 PM new
"you still haven't addressed the statement as I said it"
I quoted it exactly as you said it, word for word.
I'll try again. Here's what you said, word for word, exact quote:
"And it's true. Even some that are born here in the US claim allegiance instead to other countries. And that *does* rankle."
Anyone who is born here is an American citizen. Completely, totally, legitimately. And, yes, just as American as you or me. That's their right.
That their sentiments rankle you is too dern bad. You have no standing as "more" American than any other citizen, including people who are born here and self-identify with a different ethnicity than you, and including people who immigrate here and attain citizenship.
America is their America as much as it is yours. If their version of being American includes flying a flag of another country, that's legitimate. You cry about an "American culture" of your view that other people don't conform to. Tough.
They're just as American as you are, regardless of whether or not they choose to embrace the kind of "Americanism" that you subscribe to.
posted on November 7, 2001 10:06:12 PM new
Being born here does make one American.
But I think that you are wrong in saying that that is the be-all and end-all.
I was born here, so I'm a citizen. However, despite what you say I *would* be less of an American if I gave my allegiance to another country, put it ahead of my own, sang their anthem in place of ours, waved their flag instead of ours, put their interests over ours.
