posted on November 7, 2001 08:23:17 PM new
One can only hope page 2 would be better than page 1, KatyD.
"Get over it already" you said, Bunnicula?
What exactly is there to "get over"? What a rude comment. Having a sense of history of a geographical area and the movement of peoples between adjacent lands with some common history is nothing that needs to be "gotten over". The attitude that something needs to be gotten over, is part and parcel of the dominant social class struggling to maintain dominance in a changing society that they can't accept.
And, no, there is no dual citizenship arrangement between Mexico and the United States that I know of. Dual citizenship has always been allowed by treaty between the two countries involved and it was NOT allowed between Mexico and the United States, and as far as I know, it is currently not allowed either. All facts need to be straight, not just some of them.
Someone seems to feel pressured by the presence of people in America who retain any sense of attachment to the land where they grew up. Who put anyone here in charge of determining where someone chooses to retire or purchase land? They shouldn't be allowed to make those decisions without offending you, Bunnicula, because they will feel the the weight of your judgement as to their civic duty and concurrent attachment to the United States of America? All I did was proffer possible reasons why a reasonable intelligent adult might come to a decision to live here as a tax-paying, contributing member of American society with permanent residency rather than citizenship.
Certain population movements (in the macro sense) and the realities thereof seem to be beyond the scope of intelligent discussion of the reasons for those movements.
Also most criticisms leveled towards people of Mexican descent in this thread when examined closely are complaints about differences in socioeconomic status and are not due to their racial or ethnic background and should not be termed as such. By terming them as a result of their racial or ethnic background... .... ....
For your information, my ex-husband never once used free county or state medical services, had medical insurance through his job, never was on welfare, paid plenty of state and federal taxes, and was certainly not a leech on American society or goodwill. IIn addition, I never heard him speak of Americans in the tenor with which Mexicans are spoken of here on this thread.
It requires no money or education to have inner intelligence, class, and human compassion.
posted on November 7, 2001 09:57:19 PM newWhat exactly is there to "get over"? What a rude comment.
Not rude at all--merely a statement of fact. You held up former ownership of the territory in question by Mexico as if it has any relevance today. It doesn't.
Having a sense of history of a geographical area and the movement of peoples between adjacent lands with some common history is nothing that needs to be "gotten over".
See above. People in Italy might just as well claim the right to the British Isles or Europe because they once had control of them.
The attitude that something needs to be gotten over, is part and parcel of the dominant social class struggling to maintain dominance in a changing society that they can't accept.
Social class has nothing to do with it. And society changes all the time--it's a fact of life.
And, no, there is no dual citizenship arrangement between Mexico and the United States that I know of.
I stand corrected. It seems that while there is no problem on the side of the US regarding dual citizenships, Mexico doesn't recognize them.
Someone seems to feel pressured by the presence of people in America who retain any sense of attachment to the land where they grew up.
SIGH. No, once again, that is not what I said. But then, you know that & just refuse to admit it.
Who put anyone here in charge of determining where someone chooses to retire or purchase land? They shouldn't be allowed to make those decisions without offending you, Bunnicula, because they will feel the the weight of your judgement as to their civic duty and concurrent attachment to the United States of America?
I see--so only you are allowed to have opinions on the subject? You know, all of us have immigrant ancestors. All of our families left the country of their birth to make America their new home. All of us came bringing the cultures from the old countries. The main difference that I can see is that some make the commitment to their new home that while they maintain old ties, language, customs, celebrations, their *allegiance* is to the US & they make the effort to learn the language & customs of their new home.
All I did was proffer possible reasons why a reasonable intelligent adult might come to a decision to live here as a tax-paying, contributing member of American society with permanent residency rather than citizenship.
I could see that if one's job took one to another country for a few years. But we're talking almost thirty years--in other cases more.
For your information, my ex-husband never
This is aimed at comments by Bearmom. I'm not sure where she lives. However, if she lives in one of the 7 states most heavily hit by immigration in general & illegal immigration in particular, then she is seeing a side of it that isn't appreciated so much by people in the other 43 states.
No, not all immigrants are free loaders, on welfare, foodstamps, etc. But the abuses do exist and are especially seen in those 7 states.
In addition, I never heard him speak of Americans in the tenor with which Mexicans are spoken of here on this thread.
Come to southern California--we hear it all the time.
It requires no money or education to have inner intelligence, class, and human compassion.
No one said it did. But then, that is a dig, accusing those of us who expect immigrants to come here legally & having done so cleave unto America as their home & give it their allegiance of lacking class, intelligence and compassion.
posted on November 8, 2001 04:03:28 AM new
Nope, Helen. My comments didn't change. As I said earlier, you just read the first comment with your prejudices toward me coloring everything I said. Not once did I say I resented kids of any race, creed, or color. I resent the fact that I have to work two jobs to provide for my own kids, and a big chunk of what I make goes to provide for people who choose not to work.
And notice I said those who 'choose not to work'. I do not begrudge aid to the elderly, infirm, or single mothers. Just aid to the lazy.
Furthermore, in west Texas, American citizens of Hispanic (oops, said it again!) descent resent being called Mexicans. They are Americans. Hispanic is the legal term in school paperwork used to designate people of Mexican descent. ( There are about 13 different terms, no longer just white, or non white.) I use the term Hispanic out of respect for those people.
In west Texas, we have a very large illegal population. Some of them work very hard to make livings for their family. Some of them want better lives for their children. Some of them are remarkable people. And some of them are here for the welfare checks. Fact of life.
Until you have worked in this type of school for a while, don't put yourself forward as an expert, or judge and jury of those who do. Those teachers deal with language barriers, with cultural differences they don't understand, with gangs, illnesses, parents with whom they cannot communicate, parents who want their kids out in the fields instead of in school, lack of funding for supplies (they are generally low income areas), kids who transfer in and out of schools along with the harvests. It takes a caring teacher to do that. Most could get jobs elsewhere, but they want to help these kids, and they put up with a lot in the attempt to do so. So don't sit there in your nice clean computer chair and condemn those you obviously don't know.
posted on November 8, 2001 05:36:02 AM new
I will correct one misunderstanding. I lived in the Southern California area, specifically in Los Angeles, Orange County and San Diego area for a total of 14 years, at various times within the last 22 years.
posted on November 8, 2001 06:18:55 AM new
Bearmom
It's not worth my time either.
Bearmom, I see the picture clearly that you are painting and it's not pretty. I want to assure you that I read more than the first sentence. In fact, I read your comments very carefully, here and in a related thread. I read the comments several times, in fact because your attitude toward immigrants was so unbelievable to me.
posted on November 8, 2001 07:18:48 AM new Bearmom, These are the points that you made in one thread, with a significant focus on parents and your attitude toward parents that you repeatedly refer to as "these people". You see, bearmom, I did read more than the first sentence and furthermore I read with more comprehension that I will post here.
1. Aid to the lazy (parents)
2. here for the welfare checks. Fact of life.(parents)
3.welfare more apealing than work (parents)
4. (parents) send their children to school sick so the school willl give them the Tylenol.
5. resent bleeding hearts
6.lack of initiative (hispanics)
7.(parents) make no attempt to learn English
8. Every business has to keeep Hispanics on duty all of the time.(for parents)
9.School letter have to be sent in two languages.(parents)
8.2 children finished school near top..(.parents) had Bearmom's utmost respect.
9. some( parents) never learned English.
10. (Parents) in Texas only for jobs and benefits
11. (parents) made no effort to become part of the Texan society.
12. (parents) it's infuriating to see how fast they learn about food stamps, the WIC program and free health cae at the clinic!
13. (parents) stay on unemployment by moving from Texas to Minnesota every six months, then back again.
14.(parents) yell discrimination when you punish their child in school.
15. (parents) manipulate system
16. (parents) then they are smart enough to learn English.
17. Dental clinics in Teachers Lounge
18.Imigrants get free uniforms
19.Free tickets to the ballet.
Conclusion by bearmom....You develop the attitude I have, and you understand the resentment people have towards immigrants like these.
posted on November 8, 2001 07:24:19 AM new
And yet you didn't bother to understand what she was saying. There's an interesting mindset in this country--if a person criticises some, it is automatically assumed they are criticizing all.
"And yet you didn't bother to understand what she was saying. There's an interesting mindset in this country--if a person criticises some, it is automatically assumed they are criticizing all."
I do understand what she is saying.
Conclusion by bearmom...."You develop the attitude I have, and you understand the resentment people have towards immigrants like these. "
What she was saying here and in the list above are a lot of generalizations of a type that are not culture traits but negative statements of her perception of the immigrant parents. Her conclusion indicates a stereotypical attitude, which she admits. How much clearer can it be?
As we know, the child is strongly influenced by his parents.
My concern would be that if a teacher has this attitude toward immigrant parents that it might extend to the children and affect the teachers expectations of the childs learning ability. When teachers have a low expectation for their children's learning, the children seldom exceed that expectation....a self fulfilling prophecy.
posted on November 8, 2001 12:43:28 PM newchococake: I believe she was speaking of people of Mexican descent who were either born here or were naturalized. They resent being called Mexicans because they aren't Mexicans--they're Americans.
posted on November 8, 2001 12:47:54 PM newhjw: she gave specific examples and said the resentment was toward those examples. Nowhere did she say that all immigrants are like that. And considering what she later told you on how she bent over backwards to help all the kids in her classes...
posted on November 8, 2001 01:05:20 PM new bunnicula
bunnicula
I believe that it should be beneath your dignity to try to defend bearmom. In my last post, I used the word generalizations which doesn't mean "all".
In the same post in which you say that she bent over backwards she also said that I was so prejudiced aganist her that I responded after only reading one sentence of her comment. Nonsense. Before I respond to a thread I always read the previous posts including any links provided.
posted on November 8, 2001 04:24:10 PM new
Bunnicula, don't waste your time on Helen. She has attained such a degree of perfection in her morals and intelligence that she no longer needs to concern herself with facts. Her statements from on high are above discussion or question.
