posted on March 20, 2002 05:34:56 PM new
Something has to give, I don't know if this will work or not. I don't think the U.S. would stand around if Mexico was sending in suicide bombers in.
posted on March 20, 2002 05:50:36 PM new
Hmmm... "tit-for-tat" in advance. Dershowitz's plan has a ring of the "youth-at-risk" camp mentality to it: one kid screws up, everyone is punished. While these (mostly offshore, for some reason) "rehabilitative" teen boot camps claim some success with this approach, I'd suspect that such jejune tactics wouldn't go very far in thwarting future bus bombings, etc. The Palestinians already know that Israel will retaliate in some way; providing them with a list of targets sounds idiotic (and does nothing to address the fundamental issue of Palestinians needing their own state, imo).
posted on March 20, 2002 06:03:38 PM new
Extremist responses will just receive more extremist responses. Yes, something has to give, and it has to be on both sides. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on March 20, 2002 06:59:18 PM new
It has to be believed to be effective.
After establishing a HISTORY of following through then it would be interesting to see what they would think if the next announcement was - "Next time we come down the strip in a line a hundred or so deep and kill everyone and everything down to the pets and house plants - plow it into a parking lot, and we never have to worry about it again."
posted on March 21, 2002 12:05:09 PM new
This reminds me of our history here in the US. After 200 years everybody's sympathy is with the Indians and how they were treated by the European settlers. *Now* folks understandingly say, yes the Indians fought back (sometimes viciously) but that was understandable--they were fighting for their land. At the time however, Indians were portrayed as vicious, unprincipaled savages with no morals or human feelings who had no right to fight back as they were.
Looking at Israel's history and the treatment of the Palestinians, I can't really say that *they* are the "terrorists." Israel has done the same, and more, to them.
posted on March 21, 2002 01:18:27 PM new
You're only a victim of media blackouts and propaganda and believe what you are told. You'll make a fine republican.
Occupation is terrorism. It is the fundamental obstacle to peace in the Middle East. And it must end. The state of Israel and the state of Palestine can peacefully coexist. The Palestinian people have said they want that. But the Israeli army and Israeli settlers must leave the West Bank and Gaza in order to allow the Palestinian people to live in freedom.
posted on March 21, 2002 02:33:50 PM new
uh huh. Whatever you say.
By the way, not that it matters, but I'm a registered Democrat, not a Republican. The obstacle to peace are suicide bombers who kill as many civilians as they possibly can. Palestinians don't want a Palestinian "state". They want Jews gone and dead. BIG problem when they won't even sit down to discuss it.
posted on March 21, 2002 02:37:58 PM new
What most people don't understand is that there is a division between the two groups that is worse than anything we had here between the blacks and whites.
There is NO place in Jewish society for a Palestinian person. A Jew will not allow an Arab to see the inside of his house for fear he will know the floor plan and they will be back in the night to break in and kill them.
That is what they literally expect.
There is likewise no welcome in Palestinian places for a Jew. As long as there is this great gap and no social mingling there will never be a friction free state. There are no jobs in the Palistuinian side and you have to travel into Jewish areas to have any work - which stoops everytime there is an attack and the roads are sealed.
At least in this country we had black in the homes and mingling even if it was as servants. That would actually be an improvement over there. It is like having day passes out of prison to Jim Crow land now.
Isreal on the other hand throws away the skills and support for the economy of a huge population because there can not be the slightest trust.
If a Palestinian did display a normal comfortable relationship with a Jew he would probably be hanging from a lamp post the next day as a collaborator.
posted on March 21, 2002 03:08:00 PM new
In 1947 the UN called for the remaining territory in the mideast to be partitioned into 2 territories, a Jewish state and a Palestinian state, with Jerusalem "internationalized". One of these 2 proclaimed itself Israel and sought recognition as a sovereign state. The US being the first country to recognize it.
The rest joined in an Arab coalition to destroy the state known as Israel. Oooops, they lost, Israel capturing 70% of this Palestinian designated area in the process.
Now you negotiate with people in the hopes of coming to an agreement both can tolerate. If you sit down and you ask the other guy what his problem is and he tells you "You exist", there is kind of a big gulf there.
I think Israel has showed remarkable restraint, or more likely obedience when we yank the chain. They back up what they say. And if that means you blow up the family residence of the terrorist, you do it. And if some say this has not stopped the violence, well who's to say what would happen if they DIDN'T. It's going to get worse, since we are more reluctant to intervene.
posted on March 21, 2002 03:08:26 PM new
Amazing how many people HERE speak the mind of Palestinians THERE. Katyd knows the mind of the people better than they know themselves, I guess.
You're right about work, gravid. Not only are Palestinians denied work, they are sometimes caught trying to get some and beaten, then stoned, then have their bowels removed, then have their carcasses tossed back into their designated areas by the Isreali army, like as not, so as to be a warning to others, as happened not so long ago to three teenage boys.
But of course, according to katyd, those were not starving boys.they were hardened terrorist sabotuers rightiously caught on a mission of destruction. Their mothers told her so.
posted on March 21, 2002 03:20:03 PM new
Oh, knock it off, Ken. You know that Katy never said (or even implied) any such thing. None of us -- not you or me or REAMOND or Katy or Gravid or Borillar or Bunni or DeSquirrel -- has an answer for what *should* be done, despite our varying alliances and readings of history. As it stands now (and has for five decades), the Israel/Palestine dispute will rage on until a suitable resolution is reached by both factions or until one annihilates the other. My hope is that they'll choose to pursue the former option -- and soon...
posted on March 21, 2002 03:31:02 PM new
Ahhh...the world according to krs. Life should be so simple. He needs to get out more.
Israel isn't going away. The Palestinians are unwilling to accept Israel's very existence. It's not a matter of "land for peace". That's what Arafat turned down at Oslo. They want the total annihilation of Israel. It aint gonna happen.
Wanna talk about who was there first? JEWS! They were there long before Mohammed (or Jesus)was ever born, so the old "cowboys and Indians" argument doesn't wash. Find another argument.
posted on March 21, 2002 03:43:48 PM new
Get yer links ready, Katy, as "proof" will be demanded. This is destined to become this week's multiple-post thread. Your assertions will be labelled "hyperbole".
posted on March 21, 2002 03:58:21 PM new
Who was there first? Why would I care about that? I guess if you're on one team or the other it matters, but to me it only displays more of the racial hatred that you complain about so much. So you want jews to win because you are jews. That's understandable in the way that some one rooting for the bills and living in buffalo is, but it doesn't alter the fact that the Zionist agenda and actions are at least as vehement, brutal, and unjustifiable as are those of the palistinian's, which is essentially what bunni said.
posted on March 21, 2002 04:12:01 PM new
Actually, I DO have a solution!
What we do is have a massive, surprise relocation force that will storm the shores and remove every breathing person and animal from Jerusalem. Then, with the co-operation of many countries in the United Nations, they and we will nuke the city of Jerusalem until it is nothing but radioactive slag that will remain 'hot' for at least a hundred years.
If humans can't be trust to play with the ball right, the ball will have to be taken away.
You see, they fight over that city because it is the focal point for the three major western religions. It's history is one of mass murders and repression. I say, destroy the city, make the ground deadly to step upon. Wipe out all and everey structure, place, and thing in the city and the surrounding hillsides. Make it a total dead-zone.
After that, maybe God will get more respect and religiously significant places will get better treatment for those who live there.
posted on March 21, 2002 04:53:37 PM newMan, I'm glad I got plenty of frijoles...
Borillar, I'm not necessarily averse to making Jerusalem off-limits to to all -- just haven't yet been convinced that the fighting would cease if that territory was removed from the battle. I *do* know that I'm opposed to making it radioactively "hot" (and yes, I know you were being sarcastic).
But there is going to have to take place some remarkable give-and-take on both sides for peace to be given a chance in the region. Israel is going to have to cede a percentage of land to the Palestinians and the Palestinians are going to have to agree that it's enough.
If Jerusalem is such a sore point between the two, then perhaps it needs to become its own sovereign state -- a la Vatican City -- governed independently of Jewish or Arabic/Muslim sentiment, yet welcoming to both (and Christians, too).
If such an experiment didn't work out, all sides could easily return to the chaos they're experiencing today...
posted on March 21, 2002 05:20:24 PM new
The destruction of religion as a world force for oppression and violence would take more than just Jerusalem. Add the vatican and Mecca at least.
posted on March 21, 2002 05:26:23 PM new
Egad, Gravid, how did you leap from possible resolutions to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict to the "destruction of religion as a world force for oppression and violence"?
