posted on April 9, 2002 12:07:55 AM new
>>"The Bible promises this land to us. Whether you agree with that or not, it is a fact of Jewish culture. To western Christians, this is (just) a battle for land."<<
The biggest problem humans have had for thousands of years have been the direct result of feuding religions. Western so-called Christianity is by far the worst offender.
posted on April 10, 2002 09:43:57 AM new
I saw one part of a four-part series on PBS last night called "The Genocide Factor," dealing with worldwide atrocities during the 20th century. It was the most horrific visual account I have ever seen, even worse than the Yad V'Shem memorial. The film summarized the mechanism of genocide by drawing a direct connection between racial "cleansing" and youth education (e.g., Hitler's Youth Gangs).
It's no stretch to see that Palestinian children are raised to be worse murderers than Nazis in Hitler's Germany. The sympathy I feel towards Palestinians pretty much evaporated when I realized that an entire generation is being raised for the sole purpose of destroying another race.
posted on April 10, 2002 10:02:26 AM new
I believe that both sides are exploiting their children. Israeli women, when they graduate from high school are recruited into the army.
Yesterday, I saw a military training film of even younger women learning to handle weapons.
posted on April 10, 2002 10:34:25 AM new
Military training is in no way comparable to strapping explosives on a ten year old, as in yesterday's attack.
When people use those trite sayings like "circle of violence", "matyrs", "freedom fighters" they move into a world where everything is "equalized". But there is simply no equality in these "sides". It is 12th century ignorant fanaticism versus the modern world. Since there is no possibility of movement by 1 side there can be no reasonable expectation of compromise. You can only put a temporary stopper in the bottle as in the past. But things have progressed to where the Israelis will not tolerate this anymore, because the progress of technology means they are truly in danger today with no way to come in second.
posted on April 10, 2002 12:04:37 PM new
The posters in England have a thread similar to this one entitled the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Because of threats between posters, the thread had to be blown up and restarted. We should pat outselves on the back for not going in that direction.
posted on April 10, 2002 12:11:06 PM new
"It is 12th century ignorant fanaticism... "
Exactly! This isn't about "upgrading" the standard of living, it is what it's been called for decades by Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, et al: Holy War. Israel and the United States are the enemies, and we've been promised our ultimate destruction by these people. There'll be no more sympathy from this American "infidel" for any of those zealots.
posted on April 10, 2002 01:36:32 PM new
Last night I was watching CNN or something and they interviewed an Arab woman who held a high level position with an Arab newspaper. Looked like she could have been on Wall St. The interviewer, (Brit Hume??) was talking about terrorism and murder and outrage at strapping C4 on a 10-yr-old. She was arguing about the terminology, etc and then I realised she was saying it was OK because it was Israeli SOLDIERS, not civilians. He asked her if blowing up a 10-yr-old wasn't terrorism and that's her answer!
It's amazing how all these people kill while holding a holy book that they can't read that says no, you don't kill. And of course, you don't have clerics screaming outrage from their pulpits over each atrocity. So it truly is the West vs Islam.
posted on April 10, 2002 01:48:20 PM new
Yes, it truly is, and we'd better wake up to the Islamic terrorist network we've enabled (and in some cases funded) right here in this country. While I'm certain there are many, many followers of Islam living here peacefully as law-abiding American citizens, I'm equally certain that many others aren't chanting God Bless America at their local mosque...
posted on April 10, 2002 05:22:04 PM new
While I agree about the religeous fanatacism of the middleasterners - how is that different from the nations of Christendom who sent their soldiers off to slaughter each other in two world wars with priests and preachers of both sides telling their congregations that they were doing God's work? The Germans uniform even had belt buckles that said "God with us". They touch very lightly on that in the history books don't they?
posted on April 10, 2002 07:30:59 PM new
Gravid, I'm having difficulty discerning what it is you want "gotten" from your post.
While my (admittedly limited) understanding of the events which led to WWI tells me that its cause was not worth the lives it cost, my somewhat broader knowledge of WWII convinced me long ago that it was a "righteous" war, and that both Hitler and the Japanese Empire would've gobbled up the world had they not been prevented by force from doing so.
Hitler was the "god" of the Nazis -- not Christ; Hirohito enjoyed the same status in Japan. Those Kamikaze pilots may have attended their own Shinto funerals before boarding their death-planes, but they flew those missions for the emperor, not God.
If you're implying that Christianity itself has fomented many religious wars in the distant past, I'll agree -- but the Crusades ended centuries ago and popes no longer war and conquer on a traditional battlefield. Today's popes are very like modern-day CEOs, with a vast, scattered flock to rejuvenate and a staggering financial portfolio to keep healthy.
I don't see -- outside the limp platitudes that only an idiot of Bush's "stature" would dare to utter with a straight face -- that the U.S. itself is fighting a "religious" war.
Anymore, God -- in this culture -- is a wholesale commodity at best, having proven Himself to be largely ineffective in business. You and I would be too jaded, for example, to take seriously a television advertisement which piously declared that God prefers Coke to Pepsi.
If you meant to imply that the U.S. marches off to war for God, I must strongly disagree. These days, we march off to protect our far-flung business interests and God, if He's there at all, sits on the sidelines shaking His head and waiting in vain to be called into the game.
And, all that said, I think we're up against a heck of a foe, because -- as DeSquirrel pointed out earlier -- our adversaries in this go-round do have God on their side. Or so they believe...
posted on April 10, 2002 08:08:53 PM new
What exactly is an infidel in the eyes of these fanatics? Is it anyone that is not Muslim? I can't quite decide what is constituting infidel.
All other countries and not just the Western countries should be afraid as these people are not just pissed at the USA because of our ties to Israel, they are out to get us because we are infidels. If we are then so are Canadians,Australians, Chinese,Japanese all the people of south America...even the Russians. If they take us out they will have no trouble with the rest of the countries.
It really pisses me off to think that my life and/or that of my children could be shortened because of some as*h*les holy war. The more I learn of any organized religion the less I like them. It is as though God told people to get down here and choose up teams and fight,fight,fight and the last one left would be his favorites.
I've never heard of Wiccans, for instance, going on a killing spree or starting a war.
posted on April 10, 2002 08:53:54 PM new
Well, RawB, the Wiccans don't own banana plantations in Central America, or require the oil reserves of the Persian Gulf.
Seriously, when you sit back and really listen to the spew of even the english-speaking foreign diplomats from these Islamic countries, doesn't it scare the orina right outta you? This is war -- bigtime, fundamental, grab-your-gun-and-lock-your-door WAR. I shudder to think what awaits us come September 11, 2002...
posted on April 10, 2002 09:11:11 PM new
You really think they'll wait till Sept 11?
Yes,plsmith, it scares me. It scares me mostly because I feel like the USA is going to be in this all alone. Who will come to our aid if we need it? England?Australia? Maybe but most countries will sit back and think we are getting our comuppance. Little do they realize that the way we go is the way they will go. They will also realize quite soon how much they miss our money not to mention our other contributions to the world community.
It scares me because in WW2 so many millions were killed and we weren't anywhere near this far advanced technologically. Three hundred million might not be impossible to murder this time around.
It scares me because the world is filled with stupid,fanatical people that would let it ~ even help it ~ happen all because "it's time for the second coming". Hallelulah.
I admit to being scared. I'm not afraid to die. Not at all. We all will one day. I just hate to go in such a manner.
posted on April 10, 2002 09:30:34 PM new
Oh please, a conflict is not the worst thing that can happen. What you should be scared about is the world pulling a 1938 Munich. That "giving an inch" will show a weakness in the decadent West and only bring further havoc in the future by feeding the fanaticism. We have to show these governments that we will not tolerate their support of these groups. The Queen of Jordan led a rally yesterday!
You know that the Arab leadership amongst themselves can't come up with even half a brain combined. As each day progresses they give more and more proof of it. That is what really makes them scary.
Interesting tidbits in today's paper:
The US army fields 13 divisions, Israel can mobilize 19 in 24 hours.
The US Air Force can maintain 1600 fighter sorties a day, the Israelis 3000.
And that's the scorpion they keep poking with the stick. If someone thows the match, it will be all over before we could even get there.
posted on April 10, 2002 10:07:50 PM new
Rawbunzel, it's ironic, in a way... I realized at some point in my sojourn upon this earth that no one -- myself included -- escapes this Life unscathed. A percentage of us die "prematurely" in childbirth; an uncounted percentage of us are born dead or disallowed birth; millions die in wars; draughts, floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, disease, and famine claim hundred-millions more. There is no such thing as slipping off to "meet our Maker" in a gentle slumber at a ripe old age -- that's a Victorian sentiment. What is far more likely in store for some of us is a perpetuation of our existence through drugs and transplants, even though we're far beyond our allotted (worthwhile) time. Some of us will be shot to death by disgruntled co-workers; some of us will board an ill-fated train or plane; some of us will choke on a birthday meal at Benihana's; some of us will perish trying to save others -- strangers whose names we don't even know. Others will take their own lives, out of dispair; some will kill children; some will snag a sleeve on a piece of machinery and be mangled; some will be mangled in their automobiles, or their snowmobiles, or -- if they're skiing stupidly -- smash their vibrant lives against an unforgiving tree.
I could go on and on, Robin, but you get my point, I think; this life is not guaranteed to run along smoothly to a predictable end, but it is worth living, and it's worth fighting for -- even if one dies trying to preserve it.
There is no one in my immediate circle who isn't some version of depressed. Whether we tie it to that event or not doesn't matter. There's *something* going on (cosmically?) that will not be ignored by our subtle (higher) selves -- we're eating too much, we're drinking too much, we're running up debts like there's no tomorrow. It's the new dis-ease: not knowing -- or believing we know -- what Tomorrow may bring...
posted on April 10, 2002 10:14:06 PM new
Not Noor, the new King's wife. As a Palestinian, she's showing solidarity. Well of course she did live on the OTHER side of town.
posted on April 10, 2002 10:29:45 PM new
Religion is being used as an excuse because the people fighting the war are uneducated and have no system of information that is freely distribtued and accessable. In the lack of an explanation, religion must do the job and religious and political leaders are all too quick to fill people in on the "reasons". Blame not Islam, but rather, ignorance. After all, it WAS the very same ignorance that got Bush so close a race to Al Gore: the religious Right told their sheep, I mean, voters to vote Republican and to vote Bush. How is this any different?
If Wicca was as large a religion as the Big Three Western religions, it too would be twisted to sell to the ignorant and uninformed.
sp.
[ edited by Borillar on Apr 10, 2002 10:31 PM ]
posted on April 10, 2002 10:32:17 PM new
hahaha, I should've known that Noor was out as soon as her king was dead! Been avoiding tv all day, except for these entirely unrelated snippets I caught on our local news, which might amuse you in kind:
An asian man, who spoke english too brokenly to assure airport security guards that the wiring which was detected inside his tennis shoes by the x-ray machine, had his high-tech self-heating battery-operated sneakers confiscated from his feet and detonated by a bomb squad.
If anyone here really needs a job, and has always wanted to live in sunny California, the LAPD has openings for 1,100 police officers.
Gambling debts (including LOTTO ticket purchases) are tax deductible.
posted on April 10, 2002 10:58:04 PM new
Borillar, you seem to be relying upon an old model to explain the anarchy and terrorism of the Palestinians (and/or Islamic Jihad, et al). These people have full access to -- and are well aware of -- both their own media and CNN. The only part of their "ignorance" that I'll buy anymore is that they "honest-to-God" believe that theirs is a "holy war". That they receive this "knowledge" from the respected clerics among them -- while their governments do little or nothing to instruct them otherwise -- does not in any way support a view that they're "ignorant". They're simply choosing -- as you and I do every day -- to hear what they want to believe.
And that's OUR problem -- now.
posted on April 11, 2002 12:46:22 AM newPlSmith, great post.
When I made the post above about raising children, I hadn't heard about the 10-year old suicide bomber. The horror of this act, in the light of Sept. 11, will dispelled any sympathy for the Palestinian cause. The world will not tolerate Saddam Hussein and his cronies buying the lives of children to throw on Israeli swords. The Arab nations are staging this war by proxy for their own amusement.
As for Bush ... Once again it's Israel fighting America's battles, while America stands by and does nothing. This is why Israelis have no respect for America.
posted on April 11, 2002 01:58:19 AM new
Well Steve, you're educating me. I wasn't aware that Israel doesn't respect the U.S. But I'm not surprised. No one respects the U.S. -- not the Egyptians, who receive over a billion in aid from us annually, nor our new-found "allies", the Pakistanis, who'll be getting 1.1 billion, nor, nor, nor... The list is endless. The thanks are nil. Frankly, I'm fed up with having my tax dollars shunted around the world to maintain my lifestyle. I'd gladly say "tata" to middle east oil and hop on a bicycle for transportation. I'd pay a decent price for sneakers made in America and blow off Korea. I'd eschew the cheap clothes, tools, car parts, you-name-it, now pouring in from China and tell them to keep their baby-drowning, free-speech-suppressing society to themselves.
I've become an isolationist, you see. But I'm one of the few who's willing to underwrite my beliefs with practical action. Just imagine what true power we fat, lazy Americans would have if we abandoned our SUVs and took up our old ten-speeds. Shove off, Shell! See ya,Exxon! Cheery-bye, BP and Adios Bush!
And Israel? Israel, too, could say "Buzz off, USA!" and we'd keep the 3-plus billion we send it every year.
And to ALL countries, the message would be this: we'll buy what you're selling if we want it, but we won't try to run or overthrow your government so that some of us can outright steal your commodities. That, to me, is democracy. Fair trade, free trade; not a country full of people subordinate to its dominant corporations and their global "interests" -- which is what we are now, imo.
posted on April 11, 2002 04:41:31 AM new
Well even if it was built out of the country it is not $20 a week forever flowing to the oil producers.
I have to say that those actions can be taken by a person and the market forces will take care of the problem if enough people choose to live that way. No reason to wait for government to rally around and impose those choices. You are free to make them now. If enough stop buying the oil then eventually the government would have less reason to protect the source of the oil. If you want to dump the SUV and hop on the bike nobody stopping you. Nobody is forced to buy a gas guzzling vehicle unless they physically need a heavy truck for business.
posted on April 11, 2002 05:34:27 AM new
Aren't you the same person who's post I saw which negated the worth of waiting for a revolution? "If enough" is a pie-in-the-sky dream - get real. Sure, anyone can go ride a bike in individual protest but they'd better stay in the bike lane, and watch them jump on the bus in inclement weather thus bespoiling the purity of their protest. And then when the bus schedule is inadequate to their need - what? It's back in the SUV if they can still afford one, having given up gainful employ as being to far to ride.
Hypocrites abound who tout such brilliance, always with advice but never with action. When I have to hear one of them I'll say "Uh-huh, you first" which usually shuts them right up.
posted on April 11, 2002 09:48:58 AM new
The money America gives Israel isn't charity. Israel does beau coup spying for the U.S. Strategically, Israel is a strong democratic military presence in a very turbulent area of the world. But Israel also knows that apart from private donations, the U.S. is looking out for its own interests. America tried cozying up to Saudi Arabia. What did that get us?
What happened to Bush's pledge to combat world terrorism? According to Powell, Arafat is maintained because Arafat is the political leader of the Palestinian people. But Bin Laden was the political leader of Al Quieda. How come we didn't "negotiate" with him? Where does Bush come off rebuking Israel for taking necessary steps to insure its own survival?
Palestine is a pawn of the Arab nations, and Israel is a pawn of the U.S. While the superpowers sit back, the killing goes on. Sharon was willing to talk peace once the terrorist attacks stopped. They didn't stop. The fact that U.S. is shuttling diplomats back and forth is no guarantee of security. It's meaningless. Israel is at war and as always, no help is forthcoming.
The terrorists have adopted a mantle of being a political agency. But they are still nothing more than cold-blooded murderers. Does anyone still believe that all this terrorism is because of a few Jewish settlements in disputed territory?
posted on April 11, 2002 10:13:51 AM new
You mean Israel does beau coup spying ON the U.S and will sell what they find to any and all comers. If the billions aren't charity then they are bribery spent in the hope of having SOMEONE on our side in the event of a united arab action against our supplies of oil. That's why money is given to any of those grubby little states. I'm sick of seeing all these brown greasy-talking heads being treated as though they are important. We ought to blow away the entire mess of them and return the area to desert, or we ought to just sit back and let them do it. But no, corporate america has to get it's fat belly fuller and the administration is it's mediator while we are it's bankroll.
posted on April 11, 2002 11:19:00 AM new
Israel performs another function. The US uses them to test military systems and equipment in a real world environment when the US does not engage in enough combat to test their own systems. However they are often ahead of the US in inventivness.
Back in the 60's the US was spending tens of millions of dollars trying to get a TV system that would allow a fighter pilot to watch their 6 o'Clock.
When a bunch of Jewish pilots came to the US for mutual training they were slippery devils and you could not stay on their tail. The US wanted to see their system. They had rearview mirrors installed outside their cockpit. They said the first few they tried would just rip out in a 9G turn until this guy who drove taxi in Chicago told them that the cabbies used to have kids run up at the stop light and rip the mirrors off to sell. He said you have to buy the heavy-duty ones from J.C Whiney that have a big backing plate held on with two bolts. The kids run up and all they get is a hernia trying to rip those suckers off. Sure enough you can flip the plane every which way and they ride right through it.
$29.95 vs millions for a TV system.
posted on April 11, 2002 08:48:35 PM new
Israel spys on the US ? The US also spys on Israel, and France, and Great Britain, and Germany, and Canada.
Spying isn't just for enemies. Great Britain was monitoring US "secure" communications prior to our entry to WWII.
Spying is only as effectve as what stones are left unturned. And you leave as few stones unturned as possible of both friends and foes.
I can only reiterate, the US doesn't support Israel for religious reasons, the US supports Israel because it is a Western style democracy in a region that has no other western style democracy.
The Arabs are not attacking Israel because of religious differences or land disputes. The Arabs attack Israel becuse Israel's liberal western democracy threatens every king and despot in the region. Do you think Saudi Arabia really cares one whit about the Palestinians ? They don't. But they do care about a western style democracy in the region that is delivering freedom and prosperity in the region.
I can find fault with Bush, our corporate culture, our international business dealings, our social and cultural shallowness, our capitalist failings, but by comparision to the living conditions in any Arab country, I thank god, yawah, mother goose or whoever that we have a strong military and the will to defend our way of life.
Belive this if nothing else- if we give in to the terrorists, whether in Israel, the Persian Gulf states, or anywhere else, our lives will be much worse than the worse day you ever spent under the governing auspices of the United States of America.
There is much at stake, there may be many killed, including "innocent" people, but keep things in context and realize what is at stake. Losing this war means an end to democracy and freedom.
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