posted on April 19, 2002 11:41:51 PM new
So what are you hanging around taking petty shots for, Pat? Don't let the door hit you in the ass.
This thing is ugly, and it does not have to be accepted. There was a communication breakdown and someone is at fault. I've no doubt that the pilots are not at fault as even from 500 ft at very slow speeds I can testify to how nearly impossible it is to differentiate a person from the terrian. At supersonic speeds those pilots never saw who was down there. But tracers, even richochet tracers, coming toward them looked like basketballs coming up at unbelievable speed, and I've no doubt that they thought that they were being fired at.
Someone didn't let them or their immediate commanders know that Canadians were anywhere near. I don't believe for a minute that they were only given permission to 'mark the target' as who would they be marking it for, themselves? They were given clearance to drop on the source of the fire that they believed had been directed at them, and they did.
Killing and maiming by live fire is the most horrific outrage imaginable, whether it's by accident or not. Irene, and all Canadians are right to be outraged and to question the why, but perhaps not right if they are too quick to point fingers in the wrong directions.
posted on April 20, 2002 04:42:58 AM new
When you get all emotional and wring your hands over the issue then you usually fail to ask the more insightful questions.
Not why did the guy drop his load?
He was up there looking for something to drop it on.
Why were they conducting live fire TRAINING in a combat zone? Did the troops lack desert training and they were desperate to get them some before they saw action? Was it to save money because they don't normally get such training and this was a chance to get something not normally budgeted? Why in the world would they have tracers shooting up into the air for a ground exercise?
And of course all the basic questions about why any of them are there in the first place.
posted on April 20, 2002 07:20:00 AM new"It appears that the president would not even have publicly acknowledged the tragedy had it not been for the prodding of a Canadian journalist who caught Bush on camera as he attempted to scurry away."
posted on April 20, 2002 08:05:59 AM new
It's very sad that a live fire exercise in a combat zone has ended this way, but Gravid brought up a couple of points that bear thought:
Why were they having exercises in a combat zone? Why use tracer bullets when aircraft are on patrol in the area?
The pilot may have been looking to drop, as someone said: maybe the pilot was unfit for duty? Or maybe there was more going on in the area then we are privy to? The government needs to keep things under wraps sometimes as well, despite what some posters here think.
As to President Bush not owning up until confronted: did it ever occure to anyone that he may have been trying to get all the facts and not go off half- cocked? Maybe he was going to add more to it then he has already said? Or maybe, just maybe, he wanted to address the Canadian Government before he talked openly with the public.
Most people in this forum don't want to give the President of the United States his due respect, nor any credit. That is fine: freedom of speech and all that is good for our country. But, maybe some of you ought to take your $2.00 words, sit back, and use the uncorrupted portions of your minds for a moment and realize that we cannot know everything that is going on over there! Anyone who has served in government, the military, or anyplace like that hould understand the term:need to know basis. It is like that in most workplaces as well. We don't need to know all things: there is no way we ever will know it all, no matter what. I know some of you will lable me a sheep or something of the sort, and say what you will: but, our Government has been up and running since 1786, and I don't see it stopping in the near future, just because you feel you need to know.
posted on April 20, 2002 08:26:39 AM new
What additional facts did any American reading this thread need in order to say sincerely two little words which would have meant a great deal - "my condolences".
posted on April 20, 2002 08:35:00 AM new
Maybe he wished to find out more information on why it happened. Maybe he wanted to get all his ducks in a row so he didn't say "1 died" when 4 did. Maybe he wanted to address it in a better way then leaving a press conference: he could have wanted to address the Canadian people first, you know.
Irene, one thing we have to understand is that a terrible accident happened: and no matter what we all think, an "I'm sorry" sometimes does not cut it with people. Most people want to know at least the basics as to why it happened: maybe not all the facts, but enough to set their minds at ease. What is more comforting:
"I'm sorry, sir: your child has died."
or
"Please forgive us, sir: your child died because we were in error about......"
I personally prefer option #2. It could be what he was trying to do. As I do not know President Bush personally, I cannot say it with 100% accuracy. But I really think it was #2 he may have been trying for.
Either way, it is still a sad thing when this happens.
posted on April 20, 2002 08:45:33 AM new
Oh, Bush finally got a clue about the anger yesterday, Rick, and belatedly gave his condolences - after a certain remark by our Deputy Prime Minister.
posted on April 20, 2002 09:21:16 AM newYou're just Borillar -- a wacko for all seasons. LOL!! And ALL REASONS! Bwaahaahaa!!
So now that y'all have chased off just about the last rational thinker here, why don't you just rename this place Wacko World?. I'm sure if you advertise in Newsgroups you could boost your membership significantly. LOLOL!
posted on April 20, 2002 10:58:23 AM new
Irene, I cannot approve nor disapprove of the amount of time it took President Bush to apoloigise to my fellow Canadians (yes, my family is origionally from a little town called Cuatacook, in Quebec). I cannot defend his thinking in that matter, as I am not privy as to all the who/what/why he did what he (President Bush) did. I would imagine that there will be reperations as well, though I know that money does not return your loved ones. I think the basic question is still this:
How could this have been prevented?
Not:
It took President Bush forever to apoloigize for this mistake.
It happened: we must deal with the consequences now, and try to find a way to prevent this from happening again. Or at least minumizing how often we (all nations) are exposed to these types of risk.
Don't forget your face.
BB
Spelt Irene's name wrong: sorry.
[ edited by bayingbowsers on Apr 20, 2002 10:59 AM ]
posted on April 20, 2002 12:29:39 PM new
What apology, Rick?
Bush didn't apologize nor are Canadians angry because he didn't apologize. They are angry because, given the fact that HIS soldiers killed OUR soldiers, he had to be PRODDED to say publicly:
I want to say publicly what I told Jean Chrétien the other day about how sorry I am that Canadian soldiers lost their life in Afghanistan. It was a terrible accident. The parents and loved ones of the soldiers have my most heartfelt sympathy.
I appreciate very much the sacrifice the Canadians are making (for) the war against terror.
If he had said THAT of his own volition on Thursday, there would be none of this anger directed towards him.
We have always considered the U.S. our friend as well as ally. Friends treat each other with respect... if they want the friendship maintained.
Perhaps the U.S. would prefer to buy its allies rather than have true friends as the former doesn't require the same show of decency and good manners? Heck, even enemies can have the grace to give condolences when someone dies.
posted on April 20, 2002 12:38:55 PM new
Turn things around.
How would you feel if your soldiers came to support our soldiers and American soldiers were killed by Canadian soldiers. How would you feel if publicly there was total silence by the Canadian government about the incident.
posted on April 20, 2002 12:54:23 PM new
I am sorry, Irene: I had thought he had apoloigized. If he has not yet, then he needs to. About the only comparison I can make to this is the "Bay of Pigs" fiasco Kennedy had. It is sad that it happened, and it needs to be prevented from happening in the future. But, just as he needs to make amends for our country's mistakes, we must also remember that we are waging a war where the battlefields are new and changing. I am honestly suprised that this hasn't happened more often: on all fronts, not just Afganistan. And as to "what would happen if" that you proposed, all I can say is I do not know how I would react. That is like asking how would I react if someone murdered my children, or burned my house down. It hasn't happened to me, so I cannot truly answer that. I would like to think that I would be compassionate and patient with the situation, but of that I am unsure. I am too aware of my own sinful nature to ever think I would not have some sort of reaction like yours. So, that is the most honest answer I can give to you, Irene.
posted on April 20, 2002 01:11:10 PM new
>>How would you feel if your soldiers came to support our soldiers and American soldiers were killed by Canadian soldiers. How would you feel if publicly there was total silence by the Canadian government about the incident.<<
I had written you about 4 paragraphs before, got bumped, and lost the entire thing.
Personally, I wouldn't notice. We are fighting on the same side. We will kill ourselves in the process. We will kill the other guys in the process. They will kill us on This Side. So to me there are two sides. Us and Them. And it's War. And people die. This is not news. And I feel bad for everybody, almost. This is how I'm wired.
But that thing you posted, "The American War". If that is how Canadians, etc. view this, I can better understand what I felt was hyper-sensitivity on your part. If this is The American War, it sure beats me what the hell the other guys are doing there. I knew the night we were going to start bombing by observing *Blair*.
posted on April 20, 2002 02:04:41 PM new
Let's consider your scenario, Cyn. It wouldn't bother you if American soldiers died in action and Bush remained silent about it publicly, not even bothering to express his condolences to the families?
posted on April 20, 2002 03:13:07 PM new
>>Let's consider your scenario, Cyn. It wouldn't bother you if American soldiers died in action and Bush remained silent about it publicly, not even bothering to express his condolences to the families?<<
You know, sometimes "I'm sorry" just doesn't cut it.
I'm confused and suspicious about everything right now. I used to be a pacifist, but that is certainly a useless, unrealistic stance in this world, I guess. I really hated the Taliban tho', and doubt I'll ever regret the loss of one.
But then it gets murky. I don't know the global stats, but maybe the Us and Them are us--a few billion?, and Them, a few hundred if that?
This is why I want to be a drop out. Or maybe I'm that shell-shocked.
Anybody remember that "Mary Hartman Mary Hartman" line: "I don't want to be a person anymore---I want to be a plant."
posted on April 20, 2002 05:57:22 PM new
Part of the reason ,I think, that we as Americans should have felt more empathy twords Canadians is the simple fact that they have not lost any personel in military action since the Korean War. Can you imagine? Fifty years and not one man or woman lost to war? Then suddenly your people are killed by the very people they are fighting with? Horrific! We all know that you have to expect losses during war time...you just don't expect that the first and hopefully last losses will be from "friendly fire" [whatever the hel* that is] . The USA is practicaly immune to the loss anymore we have had consistant losses of military personel since WW2 in one little war or skirmish or another.That happens when you set yourself up to police the world. The Canadians have not been in the same position.
Gravid said: "When you get all emotional and wring your hands over the issue then you usually fail to ask the more insightful questions. "
This thread wasn't supposed to be about the insightful questions [I know you can't control the turn any thread takes]. However the opposite of your comment,Gravid, is also true...sometimes when you try to ask all the right insightful questions you lose sight of the real emotional issue. Sometimes a "My condolences" before you begin to regale with all that insight goes a long way.
posted on April 20, 2002 07:17:38 PM new
I think it was a all a very sad, terrible mistake....an accident. The U.S. has killed their own before by accident, so I don't feel this is any different.
One thing you said krs..."They were given clearance to drop on the source of the fire that they believed had been directed at them, and they did."
It's my understanding that the pilot was NOT given clearance. In a situation where there is enemy fire, the pilot can over-ride the negative ground clearance if he thinks his life is in danger, which is what this pilot did.
posted on April 20, 2002 07:44:06 PM new
>>It's my understanding that the pilot was NOT given clearance. In a situation where there is enemy fire, the pilot can over-ride the negative ground clearance if he thinks his life is in danger, which is what this pilot did.<<
Hi again. That was the last speculation I heard shortly after I heard the news. Is that what they are saying now? I stopped listening after the ugliness here last night.
I'm also curious, were all the Canadian soldiers Canadian? Were they all men?
(And personally, I don't hope plsmith comes back. I mean she accused me of fabricating a child (or alternately abusing him), puked in another thread, and calls people sicko wackos. Who needs it? YMMV.<s>
Nothing that she said about me had any basis in fact either. It's hard to understand in this kind of communication the stress that may be motivating such behavior. Maybe she will take a break and come back like the good ole Pat that she used to be.
I know what you mean. Makes me recall the night I terrified some poor batard in the laundry room to the point of his feeling he needed to call security. He was using every dryer and it was like 10:30 and I went postal! I also had a few too many, I was exhausted, and it was when I was doing That work. But still, I was able to express what I wanted--a dryer! I feel compelled to repeat this story because I'm ashamed of myself and this is...confessional--not the would I'm searching for but I can't find it right now.
posted on April 21, 2002 10:22:43 AM new
I don't know you nycyn, but I do 'know' Pat and imo, she's one of the best posters here. To lose her input would be a drag. Really, what's the big deal? So she called some people wacko's, so what? That was just her opinion at the time.
posted on April 21, 2002 10:43:53 AM new
P.S. Was it your birthday yesterday Pat? That could explain a lot. (Judging by her picture, I'm guessing Pat would be about 70 or 75.)
Pat, you look marvelous! Don't let any of these wacko's here tell you different!
posted on April 21, 2002 11:15:57 AM new
That would explain a lot??????? Did anyone bother to read Pat's post?
we then spent most of the day locating and purchasing a Canadian Flag, so that he a war veteran himself, too far gone mentally to even recall what he ate for breakfast this morning -- could raise that Maple Leaf and sob/salute his way through a prayer and tribute I didn't even know he remembered and could recite.
The Round Table is definitely need of a clue phone. What an insensitive callous lot.
Irene
[ edited by stockticker on Apr 21, 2002 11:17 AM ]
posted on April 21, 2002 11:50:49 AM new
Maybe it's me, but I didn't take her post that way Irene. Why would someone go through looking for a Canadian flag when they knew their dad was incoherent and wouldn't be able to comprehend? I thought it was a positive gesture myself.
posted on April 21, 2002 11:52:33 AM new
>>we then spent most of the day locating and purchasing a Canadian Flag, so that he a war veteran himself, too far gone mentally to even recall what he ate for breakfast this morning -- could raise that Maple Leaf and sob/salute his way through a prayer and tribute I didn't even know he remembered and could recite.<<
I am going to let this thread slide down into obscurity now. I just wanted to say how much I have appreciated what you have posted on this thread. You have my respect and deep and very sincere heart-felt thanks.
face.
