posted on June 2, 2002 07:41:17 PM newDo you really think that the 1200+ people picked up and held now for months are all active terrorists?
Gravid - I wouldn't have a clue if they're all active terrorists or not. That's one of the things I pay my government [taxes] to do for me.
But do I feel critical of what they're now doing???? Not in a heart beat. There is only so much time in one day...hours in a week..etc. for them to be able to investigate and interrogate these people. ESPECIALLY when new threats are coming in, what seems like daily. I believe if they were not suspects they wouldn't have been detained in the first place. So, to me, the decision becomes who do I wish to grant more time to??? I choose my country.
See...when I read things like this, or watch these terrorist groups spout this hatred...I believe them. I believe they want to kill us and all jews. I don't choose to defend those who share those beliefs....and I especially feel this way, even more strongly for all the ones that are here illegally.
posted on June 2, 2002 07:47:22 PM new
Linda_K, we're actually lucky that the threats were translatable. The following quote from today's Washington Post shows how much of a disadvantage the National Security Agency has when when it comes to translating the overwhelming data coming its way.
"But of all the problems, lack of trained linguists is probably NSA's greatest. Last September, the number of linguists fluent in the primary languages of Afghanistan -- Pashto and Dari -- could be counted on one hand with fingers left over, a senior intelligence official told me. The problem is not new: When U.S. troops went into Haiti in 1994, for example, the NSA had only one Haitian Creole linguist. There are more than 6,500 languages spoken around the world, according to Renee Meyer, the agency's top linguist. The NSA has trained linguists in about 115 of them."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42761-2002May31.html
posted on June 2, 2002 07:53:23 PM newBut Linda, If civil liberties are not available to all, then you could lose yours also. All Arab people living in the United States could lose their civil rights
It is my personal belief that those who are not citizens of our nation should not enjoy the exact same civil liberties that we do. I know many here disagree with that...and that's okay. I'm entitled to my opinion.
I have absolutely no worries I'll lose my civil liberties.
I believe this 'war on terrorist' has changed the whole 'game' plan. This isn't a normal war where one country is fighting another. Like the thread on O'Reilly's statement....things need to be changed...be more flexable...not so 'written in cement' kind of thinking. There needs to be some flexibility for our FBI/CIA/DOJ to do what they need to do to protect us.
We are fighting individual groups of people who want us dead. If I have to choose between them and our country...myself...I choose us.
I don't believe because our nation, holds for interrogation, those believe to be planning harm to our country we should apply the same laws we do with common citizens.
posted on June 2, 2002 07:56:20 PM newI believe this 'war on terrorist' has changed the whole 'game' plan. This isn't a normal war where one country is fighting another. We are fighting individual groups of people who want us dead. If I have to choose between them and our country...myself...I choose us.
posted on June 2, 2002 08:05:22 PM newI believe they want to kill us and all jews.
Actually, Linda, according to the Koran, we (meaning Jews and Christians) are "People of the Book" and as long as we "submit" we don't need to be killed. Hindus, Buddhists, etc are sh*t out of luck unfortunately.
The Supreme Court has upheld the right of those non-citizens to due process of the law, whether they are here legally or illegally. I agree with this, even though at a gut level, I find it abhorrent that my tax money goes to defend the likes of Moussaoui. But that's the price of democracy I guess.
posted on June 2, 2002 08:09:42 PM new
Linda_K, I still welcome you! You don't resort to name-calling and always try to support your argument.
Here's another quote from the above article:
"Finally, there is the problem of the NSA's overemphasis on expensive collection technology at the expense of trained analysts. This predates the war on terror by more than a decade: Since 1990, the NSA has cut personnel by about a third. As John Millis, the former staff director of the House Select Committee on Intelligence, said two years ago, "We don't come near to processing, analyzing, and disseminating the intelligence we collect right now. We're totally out of balance."
"As the congressional investigation will no doubt conclude, the pattern of intelligence failures is likely to continue -- unless the NSA is given the resources and takes the steps necessary to overcome many of these shortcomings."
This is a problem with federal, state, and local governments. We don't get tax cuts without sacrifices. Agencies are told to tighten their budgets, but truly can't in many instances without repercussions. My husband worked for a local government that kept cutting taxes. His department was self- supporting. The politicians just took more of his budget for other agencies. Did you know that a 3000 square foot house might get a building inspector's attention for all of 15 minutes - that's what budget cuts do. Same thing happened with NSA.
posted on June 2, 2002 08:12:02 PM new
Hep...I know I'm probably going overboard ....as some of us tend to do at times. But I just feel a strong need to express my views when I keep reading how we should be doing everything we can to 'protect' those who threaten us with their hatred. I'm against any race or religion that wants to destroy America and I don't have a problem with my government trying to sort out who's on what side.
I heard this week that a van was pulled over with 7 mid-eastern illegals in it. All here without legal papers....the police arrested them...called the district attorney to work on detaining them and searching their van....told to call the INS to start the deportation proceedings...and the police were told to release them....they can't deal with it right now. This was on tv...still haven't read anymore about it on the wires.
Horrid....but I do understand how their plates might be a little more than full right now, yes. I do.
Okay....I feel better now.
Can I borrow that flame retardent suit you were speaking of in the other thread?
posted on June 2, 2002 08:17:37 PM newI heard this week that a van was pulled over with 7 mid-eastern illegals in it. All here without legal papers....the police arrested them...called the district attorney to work on detaining them and searching their van....told to call the INS to start the deportation proceedings...and the police were told to release them....they can't deal with it right now. This was on tv...still haven't read anymore about it on the wires.
So, does this mean that if someone "Middle Eastern" has no "papers", they get released, but Mexicans get shoved back over the border, or boat people are shoved back off to sea? Isnt that smacking a bit of butt kissing due to a race and fear of being pc? THats scarey. If they are here illegally, then they should be deported. Period. No matter from what part of the globe they are from.
I have a spare suit, lindak. But I dont think you will need it. YOu have been missed around here and most of us are glad you are back
posted on June 2, 2002 08:21:20 PM new
KatyD - The Supreme Court has upheld the right of those non-citizens to due process of the law, whether they are here legally or illegally. Yes, I'm *very* much aware of that...and as a law abiding citizen I accept their ruling. BUT I don't have to agree with it.
posted on June 2, 2002 08:25:51 PM new
I gotta repeat this again:
a van was pulled over with 7 mid-eastern illegals in it. All here without legal papers....the police arrested them...called the district attorney to work on detaining them and searching their van....told to call the INS to start the deportation proceedings...and the police were told to release them....they can't deal with it right now
Maybe if more attention was dealt to the terrorists who were taking flight lessons, WTC might still be standing with the people still working in them going home to their families when the bell rung. Maybe letting those 7 go just sealed the fate of another building. This sucks. THis is NOT the time to be told "we cant deal with it right now".
posted on June 2, 2002 08:33:41 PM new
Well....I thought I was done...guess I'm only winding down.
saabsister - That's part of what I have problems with...just as your last post stated. Same thing applies here, IMO, with funds that aren't available ...so the more we head into the red ink...then everyone bitches about that. Can't get an overwhelming job done if there aren't the $$ to have enough [qualified] people doing all that needs to be dealt with. [translators, more personnel, etc...whatever it takes].
While we are reading a lot of 'dots' the FBI and CIA [both] are missing/have missed...I believe most people in those jobs are doing the best they can with the limits they have to work with. Sure some things need to be looked into...changes made...that's the way it is in life....nothings perfect.
posted on June 2, 2002 08:45:46 PM new
Well Hep...looks like I've put everyone to sleep 'cept you.
Yes, I do believe, at lot of times, we've become too PC. Some of it has been good...we need to respect those different from ourselves. Diversity and all. Equal rights....I really do. But when the airlines are spending time checking 80 year old women, young children, senators, servicemen, etc....because we need to be sure we don't 'offend' any one ..I draw my line.
posted on June 2, 2002 08:51:50 PM new
Well getting back to the people who are "being detained" as a result of 9/11,(Helen says it's thousands, but I doubt it), most of those are being detained because of irregular or falsified documents. Granted, some people are upset because the normal way of dealing with such people detained on immigration irregularities is to let them go, after telling them to be sure to show up for their court dates. Like we'd ever see them again. Lol! So, I really don't have a problem with "detaining" non-citizens for irregular immigration paperwork while investigating any links to terrorist organizations. The sticky part are the "material witness" detainees. Every state law I know prohibits the indefinite detention of "material" witnesses. Federal law is something different, and even before 9/11, has been interpreted to allow such detention. At least one judge (and now I think another one last week) has ruled that this is illegal. So it's a sticky matter and one that will probably make it to the Supreme Court although not for years down the road, and alot can happen between now and then.
posted on June 2, 2002 08:51:55 PM new
I cant sleep yet. I took a nap under the shade tree again today and now Im wide awake. When I nap, I have a helluvatime getting to sleep at night. Shouldnt have done it..but I couldnt help myself
posted on June 2, 2002 08:56:24 PM new
Unfortunately, "common sense" doesnt come into play. Detaining 80 year olds and children versus middle eastern men who have no papers or are doing "suspicious" activities like airplane lessons and big rig driving lessons and like Gravid said..."turbaned men in the back of a pickup with something aimed at the sky"....thats where the common sense comes in. But who is to say who has more of the CS than someone else? I think this is what has been called a slipper slope.
posted on June 2, 2002 09:10:52 PM new
There are many active terrorists in this nation. I believe some are U.S Citizens. The force feeding of terrorist information, is to overload the system while Congress investigates 9-11 taking much needed leadership away from the helm of the ship during a time reorganization of the F.B.I. & the C.I.A.
What better way than having Congress investigating the investigator for 9-11. Overload the system and strike on one of two days that we celebrate what America stands for, this year.
posted on June 2, 2002 10:28:56 PM new
Hey, Fred, good to see you.
I think we'll have all of those jet flying around again on our special days. I never saw anything like that sight after 9-11.
One thing I'm sure of is when and if they attack again it won't be publicized first.
We weren't prepared for WWII either but one thing about America, when push comes to shove we do manage to get things going as with finding translators.
Lindak, I don't like spending all of the money we are spending on the suspects either but like it or not that's what makes us a democracy and we need to be proud of that. No matter how gauling it is. Those men 200 years ago did us proud. It really torques me that suspects are probably eating better than me.
posted on June 3, 2002 12:15:32 AM new"But that's the price of democracy I guess."
Yes, KatyD, it is. If the least of us, the most abhorrant of us, the most reviled of us *must* be given Due Process and treated to a fair system of Justice that is open to the public as our Constitution outlines, then you and I are that much safer. The threat is not outside terrorists, but from the terrorists within our own government.
posted on June 3, 2002 04:00:46 AM new
seems to me to be like the religion scams some damm fool up there sucking in all the bucks they can babling about floods, and disasters, like millions of people wasting their time in churches has ever stopped a flood.
I remember one time my sister was takne in by some traveling huckster faith healer.
I drove up there cause my ma said the sisters kids were out of food.
When I gassed up in the local town the bumpkins at the station asked me about my ministry ? apparently it was all cut and dried that I should become a true believer and spread this basloolah. I go to my sisters place and she is frantic that I have got to hear this series of tapes (which only cost her 15.00each 12 of them).
at her insistance I listened to two of the tapes the first was a long dissertation about the great flood. the second about how this worker for the lord actually talked with godand informed god how she could not really tell people about hell unless she had been there herself, apparently god in his infintie wisdom could not figure this out himself and needed her guidance at 15.00 a tape.
I tried reasoning with sis about the first tape. I said How many species of tailed amphibians currently exist on the face of the earth. of course I got a i dont know. then I said where did he find room form over 2,000 different species not counting sub species of salamanders ? and food for them for 30 days + the recovery time needed to re establish original home territories ? of course I got the bogus the did not need food because they were full of the holy spirit.
I said gee try some of that on your kids right now when they ae hungry at 15.00 a tape.
then she decided to move on the the main tape where the nut presenting this facade had called people up on the stage pronounced aliments that they did not even know they had and then promptly cured then of these aliments and 15.00 a tape. shelaid hands on sis's husband and he did not need pot any more. apparently this had to be done each friday.
The nut on the tape went into a real dissertation about god sending her to hell complete with pitchforks devils demons snakes and fire and spiders that ate flesh.
my sister turned off the tape at a high point and looked at me and said can you think of anything more horrifying than that?
I said hell yes you ought to watch Aliens two monsters that bleed acid and lay eggs in your body and rip androids in half.
I guess I was just not deacon material. eventually her old man died speeding (25mph)
she went to college and the hucksters had to find new victums.
