posted on July 7, 2002 06:20:05 AM new
Parents should not rely on teachers who reccommend ritalin or on physicians who will prescribe mind and mood altering drugs to a child based solely on the reccommendation of a teacher. Check out the drug by reading the Physicians Desk Reference. If you don't have a copy, you can find it at the library. The PDR is a reliable, thorough and current analysis of all drugs.
As bunnicula stated in her previous post, "It's not natural for kids to be expected to be sedate and buckled down 24/7."
Teachers who need drugged classrooms may need smart pills for themselves.
posted on July 7, 2002 06:31:21 AM new
>>By contrast, Japanese school children have a recess after *every* class, and a full hour for lunch--and the results can be clearly seen in their scholastic performance.<<
Bunnicula: That is very interesting! Do you happen to know how long their classes last?
posted on July 7, 2002 06:58:23 AM new
>>Parents should not rely on teachers who reccommend ritalin or on physicians who will prescribe mind and mood altering drugs to a child based solely on the recommendation of a teacher.<<
I agree. "He won't sit still--stop poking the other kids--stay in the room" etc.etc. is a common teacher complaint. Some of these problems can be alleviated by better educating teachers about classroom management and to consider the needs of the individual child.
And some of these problems could be alleviated if parents would discipline and pay attention to their kids.
Then there are the parents who will protest: "He doesn't behave that way at home!" But you look at the home and he's the only kid and he's playing video games all night.
Not all ADHD kids can be found on top of the refrigerator, ripping paper in the corner, or stabbing the couch. Those parents know they got troubles, usually.
When my guy was three, the day care teacher had plenty of complaints and wanted me to take him to be evaluated. Based on their observations, I didn't jump. I sure was sick tho'. And I was in job jeopardy big time for lateness due to my having to wrestle with him in the a.m. "I don't want to go." I was wondering myself if he was possessed by demons.
It was an extremely loud place. The primary activity was building with large wooden blocks. One of their observations was that my son "tended to remove himself from the other kids." Hm. I asked them to watch for a few days to see if there was any indication of him having problems with hearing. Sho nuff'. "I noticed him covering his ears." "I was pushing him on the tire swing and he start complaining "My ears. My ears."
Off we flew to an ear specialist that I located across the river. In went ear tubes. I could not only see the behavior change that same evening, my kid was walking around saying, "Mommy, I can see better."
posted on July 7, 2002 08:13:18 AM newnycyn: Japanese children go to school 5 1/2 days a week. There are an average of 35-40 kids in each class. First graders are in school an average of 5.6 hours a day, while 6th graders are in school an average of 7 hours per day (except, of course, on that 1/2 day which is Saturday).
The school day is organized around 40 minute class periods, each followed by a 10-15 minute recess. Lunch is 1- 1 1/2 hours long, including eating, clean-up (they eat in their classrooms) & recreation.
The longer day for 6th graders is due to the fact they attend school clubs on campus each day which range from calligraphy & art to sports.
Interestingly, although the Japanese school year is longer than ours (240 days compared to our 160), 45 of those days are devoted to special events and extracurricular activities. Their kids see school as a place to socialize and meet with their friends.
Also interesting is that while we have largely dropped the arts from our grade school curriculum, the Japanese see art and music as important part of theirs.
posted on July 7, 2002 08:21:55 AM new
Why won't this country *get* that if it doesn't work--fix it. That's a clear model. It's not like we haven't known forever that the Japanese have better educated kids. Shameful.
posted on July 7, 2002 10:45:17 AM new
The school is formulated to serve adults.
The kids will conform to what is presented or suffer.
There is not only no study of how children learn best - there is no respect or dignity for the child as an individual.
It is a place to learn to obey and conform.
I hated the people at my schools.
They turn out great factory workers.
Japanese schools for all the things they get right still teach by memorization of facts to pass tests. If you are an excellant intellect with reasoning ability but memorize poorly and don't react to the stress of test taking well you are not valued highly.
I have meet Japanese who studied English for three years and can't speak or write simple sentances. But they can write lots of definitions of words.
posted on July 7, 2002 01:22:17 PM new
I graduated from high school in 1964. It was a small town (about 1200), everyone knew everyone else and their business. We had one child with epilepsy, one with a milk allergy (or lactose intolerance) and one with hay fever in the different classes in high school. I don't remember any behavioral problems, unless you count how I acted when I had to do math homework.
We also didn't have all the food colorings, artificial sweeteners and all the other
crap we get in our food supply now. I don't agree that parents should keep their child on meds without testing all the food/ chemical problems that children could have. Besides the typical IgG, IgE tests, an Elisa test for delayed reactions is available.
I was reading "The Stevia Story" last night and although I have only read the first chapter the following was in that chapter, page 15:
"Discovered in 1965 in the course of ulcer-drug research, aspartame is comprised of phenylalanine, aspartic acid and methanol, or wood alcohol (which, when ingested, breaks down into formaldehyde). Aspartame has been the prime suspect for a variety of symptoms chronicled in thousands of consumer complaints to the FDA and the Dallas-based Aspartame Consumer Safely Network. These include gastrointestinal problems, headaches, rashes, depression, seizures, memory loss, blurred vision, blindness, slurred speech and other neurological disorders."
"Because it is a neurotransmitter–one of a class of chemicals manufactured and used by the brain–the aspartic acid in the aspartame is also believed by some experts to cause brain lesions by literally exciting some brain cells to death–especially in children and in older people whose blood-brain barrier many not be fully functional. The sweetener is likewise considered a possible factor in the development of certain neurodegenerative disease and brain tumors....." <snip>
IMHO, there is no doubt that a diet soda drinking parent trying to keep her weight down is sending aspartame straight to her unborn child's brain. How it is effecting her child probably won't ever be examined. Not as long as there are companies like Monsanto pushing artificial sweeteners.
Stevia, an herb, used for a sweetener in Japan and many other countries was banned as a food sweetener by the FDA. I can't remember reading why it was banned, but I think the sugar industry/lobby was involved.
Stevia is said to be great for diabetics as there are no blood sugar swings. It can be purchased as a food additive in health food stores in the US now.
Adding: Don't know why my bolding didn't work so I am trying again!
[ edited by aposter on Jul 7, 2002 01:25 PM ]
posted on July 7, 2002 03:15:51 PM newJapanese schools for all the things they get right still teach by memorization of facts to pass tests. If you are an excellant intellect with reasoning ability but memorize poorly and don't react to the stress of test taking well you are not valued highly.
Actually, this is an outdated stereotype that has no basis in reality. I've done quite a bit of reading on the subject as it interests me quite a bit and it simply isn't true. In one of the studies I've looked at, it was shown that in the compared Japanese & US schools used in that study, Japanese teachers used drill work only 9% of the time in the 1st grade and 2% of the time in 5th grade lessons whereas the American schools used it 23% of the time in 1st grade and 11% of the time in the 5th grade lessons. In addition, their classes are divided into "han"--groups of kids who have varying abilities and who work together, which helps kids of lesser abilities. And Japanese grade school teachers frequently meet before or after school to help children that need it. They also give demonstration classes to parents so they know what their kids are involved in in class and so they can discuss their child's needs. Japanese children are also encouraged by their teachers to think about more than one way to solve a problem, express agreement or disagreement with statements from the teacher & fellow students, etc., which is relatively rare here in the US. And finally,it is a fact that even their students who are less able--say, in math--far outstrip our kids in general. And that is a sad thing to have to admit to. That is not to say that Japanese schools don't have their own problems--all school systems do. But by and large their system is superior to ours.
I recommend the book that started my interest in this. It was written by an American anthropologist who worked for a year or two in Japan and decided to enroll her kids (a kindergartner and a 5th grader) in the Japanese schools instead of one of the American schools over there. It is called Japanese Lessons by Gail R. Benjamin. In it, she details her and her children's experiences with the Japanese schools. Since then I have read several books and papers on the subject (currently, I'm halfway through Teaching and Learning in Japan edited by Thomas Rohlen and Gerald LeTendre.
posted on July 7, 2002 05:22:22 PM new
helenjw said:
"Teachers who need drugged classrooms may need smart pills for themselves. "
How simple you make it sound Helen. Smart pills for the teachers who want medicated classrooms, how insightful.. I'm biting the inside of my mouth right now to keep this as civil as I possibly can..Have you ever spent a 7 hour day, doing NOTHING but keeping a serious adhd kid who weighs 100 pounds from destroying his personal belongings, the belongings of his classmates, hurting himself and others?......... If you have, what were the other 24 students doing during that time??................ We are not talking about normally boisterous children, we are talking about children who are out of control, children who can be a real serious danger to themselves and others. Never mind that they are INCAPABLE of any real success in school, they arent learning, and more importantly, they are often PREVENTING THEIR CLASSMATES FROM LEARNING.................................................. Talk sometime to the parents of unafflicted kids who have had to suffer a class with unmedicated adhd kids in it, do you think they APPRECIATE the fact that their child has received LESS than what the teacher should be able to give due to somebody else's out of control kid?............................... Maybe you know some parents of unafflicted kids who would say it's perfectly OK that their child doesn't get the time they deserve and want from the teacher, because of the inordinate amount of time the teacher spends in simply trying to maintain some semblance of order.......................................
"Sure, that's ok, I know my kids math scores would improve if she could get a little more time with her teacher for help, but there's that kid in there who has that awful ADHD thing, and I know it takes away time from the other kids..so that's ok"..............................................................I'm sure you'd be one of those wouldn't you Helen? I can hear it now...............................
"Look, it's ok if you aren't able to read one on one with my son to help in his word attack skills, I know you have to watch that kid with ADHD to keep him from eating his notebook and grabbing the girl in front of him's things, so it's OK, I'd rather my child was a slow reader than for that dear boy to have to take medicine all the time".........................................
If you think for one minute that I am exaggerating, you are sorely mistaken. There are degrees of ADHD severity to be sure, I am speaking here of the worst cases, which in my experience are more frequent than mild ones, and which are increasing in number on a yearly basis. These aren't "bad" kids, "rowdy" kids, "boisterous" kids, these, Helen, are kids who are INCAPABLE of controlling themselves, INCAPABLE of concentrating on the completion of the SIMPLEST task. Their behavior CANNOT be modified in usual ways because it is somehow HARDWIRED into their brains, at least until some of them outgrow it after adolescence.
True story, I once had a parent who insisted that her child, who was profoundly ADHD, needed to be in a class with 33 other students without medication. Her solution was a novel way for the child to increase his concentration..she had her husband make the poor kid a ONE LEGGED STOOL! he brought this thing to class, and supposedly the effort to stay seated and balanced on it would somehow keep him occupied!!! What it did was cause the complete disruption of the class, as the boy repeatedly fell off his stool....Parents of the other kids took action with the school superintendant ,as I had not been able to get anywhere with administration, and finally at the Supt.'s behest the parents were told that their child could not attend a regular class without medication...................... .......Smart pills for teachers who want medicated classes...................Jesus,....................I have run out of nice words now.............................
posted on July 7, 2002 06:02:27 PM new
profe51- Helen has SOOOO much compassion for SOOOO many types of people that she can't see the forest for the trees. Very exasperating. If one ADHD 4 year old can wreak havoc on a classroom, I can only imagine what a 100 pound kid can do! Or several of them!!!
posted on July 7, 2002 06:29:51 PM new
About the Aspartame.
I read a web site that I considered very unbalanced about it. To read the material you would think they were describing potassium cyanide made by the Devil himself....
And yet they described a morning headache so specifically - behind the right ear lasting until 9 or 10 and going away. It was so very specific and exactly what I was experiencing.
I stopped the diet pop and in two days the headache stopped and never came back - until one time my wife bought some baked goods with Aspartame and the next morning I had the headache then we searched and we found the ingrediant listed on the package we had overlooked. You have to read everything - they sneak it in so much now.
You are really too emotional about this problem. I have not encountered a teacher in the last 25 years who would respond to a simple post with so much hostility. It's really unprofessional in my opinion to react to something that you perceive as wrong without first trying to engage in reasonable conversation about it.
posted on July 7, 2002 06:55:13 PM new
first off, regarding the unprofessional statement in your post...this is not a professional forum, as can been seen by the quality of thought, yours a prime example.
second, do you call making a moronic statement like teachers who want medicated classrooms need smart pills"reasonable"???? Is it Ok for you, an obvious lay person in the field, to make statements like this, but if I express myself I am unprofessional?????
how's this for unemotional, not to mention unprofessional Helen?
posted on July 7, 2002 07:00:51 PM new
Helen- My wife often comes home in tears as a result of her frustration, as she is a dedicated professional whose best efforts are often stifled by one or more ADHD kids who disrupt the class to an unbearable extent. It effects the education of the other kids profoundly! It IS an emotional issue and NOT at all unprofessional to react with honesty and emotion when one is questioned about this extremely difficult situation. How many teachers HAVE you spoken to on this specific issue, and how many with such kids were unemotional? I suspect very few in truth. Profe51 nevertheless addressed you with great constraint. Once again you are reacting to criticism with hypocrisy as you "react to something that you perceive as wrong without first trying to engage in reasonable conversation about it" constantly. And once again it is a case of you feeling compelled to get into as many threads as possible without necessarily having the knowledge to discuss the issues with accuracy and and thereby making a real contribution. Stu
posted on July 7, 2002 07:04:29 PM new<<<QUOTE BY PROFE51>>>>
first off, regarding the unprofessional statement in your post...this is not a professional forum, as can been seen by the quality of thought, yours a prime example.
second, do you call making a moronic statement like teachers who want medicated classrooms need smart pills"reasonable"???? Is it Ok for you, an obvious lay person in the field, to make statements like this, but if I express myself I am unprofessional?????
how's this for unemotional, not to mention unprofessional Helen?
PISS OFF
<<<END QUOTE BY PROFE51>>>
Profe51,
I will have to say that your response here just adds some clarification to my previous concern.
posted on July 7, 2002 07:08:11 PM new
thank you for your support stusi...and to anyone who was offended by my previous post, please accept my most sincere apologies. This is a highly emotional issue, especially to those who are the parents of these kids, and those who deal with them on a professional basis daily....
posted on July 7, 2002 07:33:01 PM new
profe51- if you go back to page 1 you will see nycyn complimenting you in stark contrast to her Siamese twin Helenjw. A first! You will also notice her warning you about me in stark contrast to our empathy on this issue. These two will drive any intelligent person nuts as they continue to post in threads where they lack the knowledge to engage in intelligent discussion, rather making kneejerk responses to most if not all issues. 'nuff said as they do succeed at taking others off the issue at hand.
nycyn- please reset your browser margins as you are taking up unnecessary space on the site(in more ways than one).
[ edited by stusi on Jul 7, 2002 07:35 PM ]
posted on July 7, 2002 07:56:28 PM new
stusi: Being a new poster here, I see that I have been suckered by helen's less than knowledgeable posts, I thought I might write something that would give her pause to think, silly me..next time I'll know the best thing to do is taunt and provoke her, ...or just ignore......The beauty of the internet is that it levels the playing field, anyone can express their feelings and thoughts, one would hope without fear of being called "unprofessional" by non-professionals....The danger is that any moron can spout off any kind of drivel they feel like, on any topic they choose, and one had better be cautious about whom to waste energy responding to..........I was foolish to respond to her obvious troll about smart pills, next time I will know better, or at least have more fun responding......
posted on July 7, 2002 08:04:17 PM new
Great, Prof51
We will just call it a learning experience for you. We are all learning every day, both professionals such as yourself and "lay people in the field" which you call me.
Your hostility toward me though is misplaced. I am sure that you will discover this as you continue to post.
posted on July 7, 2002 08:07:17 PM new
>>profe51- if you go back to page 1 you will see nycyn complimenting you in stark contrast to her Siamese twin Helenjw. A first! You will also notice her warning you about me in stark contrast to our empathy on this issue. These two will drive any intelligent person nuts as they continue to post in threads where they lack the knowledge to engage in intelligent discussion, rather making kneejerk responses to most if not all issues. 'nuff said as they do succeed at taking others off the issue at hand.<<
What do you think Prof. Are you in total agreement with your new friend's observation above?
Sigh. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
posted on July 7, 2002 08:31:17 PM new
Well, I've never admitted this but I flunked Omniscience 101 so I was unable to continue to major in it and then teach it. I had to settle for English Literature which was only second best. LOL
