posted on July 8, 2002 08:07:27 PM new
I'll let profe51 do that. But in response to your other point- So many parents have the attitude their kid can do no wrong that it is a serious problem particularly in the affluent areas. If you are not among them, so be it. If you are, shame on you. It is often this attitude that leads to naivete about drug use among other things, which is also a student problem that knows no socio-economic bounds.
[ edited by stusi on Jul 8, 2002 08:08 PM ]
posted on July 8, 2002 08:17:08 PM new
Helen, the type of school you describe is *not* the norm. And the fact is, most of our kids are not getting all that good an education. The level of denial one hears from parents & communities is amazing. Somehow, even though our kids are lagging behind those in other developed countries in all subjects, it always some *other* community and never our own having the problems. "Our schools are doing great" is the mantra you hear. Since most parents don't bother to take the time to find out what their kids really know and are being taught, they take it on faith that they are getting a great education. This is compounded by the feel-good-at-all-costs philosophy that is sapping our education system and turning out kids who fold at the least sign of adversity because they have never learned to persevere or overcome disappointment or set-backs.
Add to that that many, many parents will just not accept that *their* kid can do wrong and who undermine the teachers at every turn...the mind boggles.
posted on July 8, 2002 09:48:31 PM new
The Schools don't have a problem. Society has one and it is the Parents or Parent that won't take responsibility for their actions.
This is a subject that really gets me upset and I could go on and on but there isn't enough time or space to do it. All I have to say is, it is time the Parents take responsibility for their actions. If they have children then take care of them properly don't let me have to pay to do it.
posted on July 9, 2002 06:35:39 AM new
helen,
maybe you were short on space when you quoted me, I said
SOMETIMES the best lessons are the ones that don't feel so good.
true learning often takes place when a student is challenged to perform beyond what he or she believes is possible. A master teacher can see potential in a kid that the kid is not aware of. They aren't little adults, they're kids. The process of challenging them to excel is not always warm and fuzzy, but the rewards are always worth the effort.
you said
"So, I am trying to understand your defensive attitude and how you believe that parents are causing the problem that you are having with your curriculum. Are you referring to immigrant and native ameican cultural differnces that may affect your interaction with the parents?
I did not state that parents are causing a problem that I am having with my curriculum. I in fact am not having a problem with my curriculum. I merely made an observation regarding an attitude on the part of parents that is often seen by myself and others these days. I am sorry if it does not coincide with your experience.
cultural differences for me are not really an issue at all. I taught for 11 years in a tribal school, and my wife and child are native american. I don't have problems with immigrant parents. Most of our immigrant parents in my current school are Mexican or Central American and are coming here (part of that "horde" spoken about in another thread) from extremely impoverished backgrounds. Most are so grateful to have a school for their children at all that they will bend over backwards to help whenever they can. There is no language barrier in my classroom as I am bilingual.
In my state, we have a regular public school system as well as a charter system. Although they are also public, the charter schools operate under different guidelines, which are more like private schools. They can pick their students, refusing those who have been problems in other schools. They can permanently expel problem students if the need arises. They have much smaller student teacher ratios. They can DECIDE whether they wish to give the state's mandated tests, which the rest of us are required to administer. The most successful one in my area REQUIRES parents to spend a minimum number of hours each month participating and helping at school functions or in class. It's not an option, it's a conditon parents agree to when they enroll their kids. As we are in a rural area and there is a fairly static student population, the effect of competition from these schools has been to syphon off many of the best students. On one hand, I see the competition as good. I forces us to take a look at things and revamp where we can to stay competitive. On the other hand, the charter schools get to play the game using a different set of rules. If I tried to insist or require my parents to spend say, 2 hours a week at school, I'd be up in front of the school board in a heartbeat. If I decided the Stanford 9 achievement test was irrelevant and I wasn't going to give it this year, I would lose my certificate for breach of contract and insubordination. The longest we are allowed to expel a student is for the remainder of the school year, even if that student brings a weapon to school or commits a violent crime on campus.
I don't blame parents for moving their kids to charter schools, I may move my own son before he reaches junior high...but the result for the public schools is a marked decrease in the number of excellent students who can serve as mentors and role models for other kids, and an increase in the number of apathetic kids and parents who take the kind of attitude I spoke of. Many of us are beginning to feel like daycare workers, rather than educators.
Alrighty then, if I'm a baby sitter, I want the going rate here of 3 bucks an hour per kid. Let's see ,75.00 an hour times 7 hours times 175 days works out to about 92 grand a year. I'll take it. With a salary like that, after a few years I could move to a county like yours, where everybody's happy and rich and the teachers aren't defensive and condescending................
I still have a problem understanding challenges that "don't feel so good". I always found educational challenges and competition exciting. Learning to persevere and overcome set backs is fundamental and essential in maintaining high self esteem which is so very important.
Thanks for taking my question seriously without responding in anger.
posted on July 9, 2002 07:26:06 AM new
Well, Prof, like I recently said before in a differnt thread on here, I have always thought that the Voucher System was put in place to destroy Public Education. The solution to our problems with public schools is not to run away from them, but to stay and to fix them, even if it costs more to do so. Your observation is logical and quite correct: the end effect will be that we will have a core student body that are just the dregs of society on their way to prison. Won't that be a fun job for teachers? They'll end up be prison guards more than teachers at that point. Eventually, it'll just become antoher state instituion for throw-away kids and the Public School system will be gone. In its place will be publically funded religious schools and a very few non-religious schools and charter schools. And isn't that their plan all along?
posted on July 9, 2002 07:27:02 AM new
still have a problem understanding challenges that "don't feel so good". I always found educational challenges and competition exciting. Learning to persevere and overcome set backs is fundamental and essential in maintaining high self esteem which is so very important.
it's not the challeges that don't feel so good, it's the setbacks....again, I'm not talking about the successful kids, their parents have encouraged them to take intellectual risks, to push the learning envelope....it's the parents who will not set standards, not encourage their kids to strive...for them, when their child fails, it's MY fault, for setting the bar too high.......
posted on July 9, 2002 07:31:53 AM newLearning to persevere and overcome set backs is fundamental and essential in maintaining high self esteem which is so very important.
Exactly. However, that is the antithesis of the "self-esteem" movement currently ruling our schools. They *aren't* being challenged, they are praised to high heavens for the least amount of effort and told how wonderful they are 24/7. The proponents of this movement would have us believe that to push kids in any way is "bad," that somehow they will magically pick up all the things they are not being taught all by themselves. That grades will hurt their little egos. That learning that the sun does not shine out of their butts and that life entails effort on their part will somehow ruin their lives. Yech!
As a librarian I get to deal every single day with the products of this educational "philosophy" and believe me, it's scary.
posted on July 9, 2002 07:54:48 AM new
My school system has not overly suffered from staff and administrators who are proponents of the "self esteem" movement. We are never the less feeling it's effects in recent years. 12 years ago when we moved here, our little corner of the world was comprised largely of ranching families who had been here for generations. Their kids were all in 4H, and were too busy raising their lambs and training their horses to get in trouble. They had strict behavioral and academic expectations at home, and their parents expected the schools to uphold those expectations, which we happily did. In the last 5 or 6 years we have seen an influx of "urban exiles", who can afford to buy up property, and want to raise their kids in a less dangerous place than the cities....can't fault their motives, but lots of their kids have already had problems in their old schools, and they're used to hanging out at the mall with their pals, not doing chores in a pasture...they arent interested in the usual rural pastimes, and often begin looking for trouble right away. Our next door neighbor (next door being 1/4 mile away) had a break in last week, the culprits? You guessed it, 3 junior high boys, all of whom moved here last year. They told the sherrif they were "bored"!!! Their parents are furious that my neighbor insists on pressing charges...poor babies....Welcome to the world Profe, now I have to lock the doors at night, and my keys are always lost, because I can no longer leave them in the ignition where they belong......
You raise some good questions that I will address also, but I was away last night and we're having company from out of town this afternoon so I'll try to expand on some of my more general observations this evening.
posted on July 9, 2002 06:08:12 PM new
Helen, the school district in the town where I taught until I retired 5 years ago was likely quite similar to yours. The town with a population of approximately 35,000 was the headquarters for a major international oil corporation and extensive research facilities are also located there. In addition there were several other smaller, primarily "white collar" companies and a couple that employed mainly skilled craftsmen. Though the town includes some of all socio-economic groups and educational levels, most have above average to affluent incomes with more than a few easily falling into the "wealthy" designation, and most are college educated with quite a few having Phds, mainly because of the research facilities. Because of transfers in and out there's a little bit of a melting pot effect.
As you might expect, student test scores are higher than the national averages, as are the number of students who attend college including quite a few who are admitted to highly selective colleges and universities, the number of national merit finalists, etc. Still, I'm reasonably certain that student's performance abilities are lower in most disciplines, with the exception of science, than they were in the past. Almost all other teachers that a know who have/had taught for a number of years generally concur with that conclusion. That includes not only my immediate peers but opinions from others at regional and national conferences. There's no valid statistical data to compare student performance to the past. The SAT's were used for a while, and though limited in the diversity of students that it samples and skills that it tests, it was the closest thing to a standard of measurement. The falling SAT scores for a number of years in the 70s not only elicited criticism of America's school system but also renewed the debate over the tests' validity. ETS "revised" the tests in the 80s and then again in the 90s. Surprisingly student performance on the tests improved after each revision. Regardless of ETS' spin, the revised tests were easier. I won't go into detail, but we really have no way to compare students' higher level performances to the past.
I've never had many or significant problems with parents of students. The problems with curricula, as well as methodology, are usually not that direct anyway. But I was generally both well-respected and well-liked as a teacher in the community before the attitudinal shifts and the reading/writing/thinking skill levels and the quality of the material for English AP courses were determined by the College Board and its AP testing program. A couple of years before I retired a very bright and conscientious lady was assigned to the AP history sections which had previously been a rather weak program. In her attempts to achieve the level of difficulty and subject matter which the curriculum outlines she went through hell with a number of parents who thought that the course was too difficult. From what they had heard, the course wasn't supposed to be that demanding. They complained to counsellors, building administrators, the superintendent, school board members. She fought it all for two years with very little help from the administration but the scores on the AP History exams rose dramatically and she proved herself. About four years ago, she was selected the National Teacher of the Year. Then there were the group of parents who were concerned that their children's math scores prevented them from being able to enroll in Algebra earlier, as were those students who did so. The solution was to name all the math courses as algebra, even though some of them only progressed to a little of what used to be called pre-Algebra. Then the approach to writing skills based upon the belief that any correction or academic criticism would make students feel bad and subconsciously cause them to dislike writing. Those examples demonstrate how curriculum can be changed as well as the so-called self-esteem movement. The self-esteem movement was not limited to simply encouraging to do well and reinforcing their successes, as one might expect, but it eventually became a sort of game in pretending that students were achieving what they were not, though they would have to guess what they weren't doing or doing wrong, because the teacher shouldn't simply tell them.
A good example of the soccer mom and dad syndrome is when a group of parents decided that something needed to done about homework and began to lobby the schoolboard and superintendent. They felt that there was far too much homework and it was encroaching on their children's extra-curricular activities and gave them a negative attitude toward education. Now, the thrust of their theory wasn't to try to distinguish between what might be unnecessary homework or busywork, but that a good teacher should be able to utilize the classtime effectively enough that there would never be a need for homework. While of course that might be true with some elective classes, the end result for most would be reducing the curriculum content by a fourth to a half. In the past such suggestions would have been regarded as utter nonsense, though the busywork angle is valid and continually addressed, the district spent a year trying to determine if there wasn't a way to free up more time for students' extacurricular activities. Of course, had such a thing been done, the same parents would have denounced the school system and teachers for their neglect when the SAT and ACT scores were reported and their children weren't really going to college after all.
I could give hundreds of examples that indicate the differences and those behaviors certainly don't describe all parents, but itis a problem that didn't exist to any great extent in the past. I should have gotten a hint earlier on when I got a note to call a parent who was concerned about students' writing abilities. Since I was the English Department chairman, such parental concern was often directed to me. At first I was confused about exactly what the woman was talking about but once I realized that the writing abilities meant penmanship, we had a pleasant conversation about the regrettable decline in penmanship.
posted on July 9, 2002 07:12:01 PM new
antiquary- Your post rings true, but I have one question. You are aware that many gifted students have poor penmanship, are you not? Many parents of the gifted will question the teacher's apparent failure regarding penmanship, as they are unaware of the child's gifted level and/or this mistaken criterion of ability.
LOL to your last paragraph about writing skill being confused with penmanship!
I understand the self esteem issue now, thanks to you and bunnicula. Frankly, I was beginning to believe that I might be what you were referring to as a soccer Mom but now I understand that I was not. In fact, I may have been the antithesis of the soccer mom. I learned very early not to praise anything that my children brought home from school unless I knew that it required some effort to produce. Self esteem cannot be internalized if a child has nothing on which to base it. In the game that you described about self esteem, the children received no benefit because they knew that it was undeserved. And learning was put on the back burner to keep everyone happy.
Thank you so much for your explanation, antiquary. I'll have to tell you that I read everyone's comments over and over and until I read your comment, I didn't really understand it completely. Now, I do.
posted on July 9, 2002 07:23:12 PM new
Most students have poor penmanship, the direct result of it not really being taught anymore in grade school. Good penmanship is the result of practice. Practice is now equated with "rote learning." "Rote learning" has become a "dirty word." The now phobic reaction to the mere mention of any type of rote learning has reached epic proportions. The fact is, there are just some things you have to memorize or practice in this world, but don't try saying that too loudly or you may have things thrown at you.
posted on July 9, 2002 07:35:43 PM new
bunnicula- Good point, but although the gifted have the ability to practice this skill, many have actually been labeled early on as underachievers due to their poor penmanship. I don't agree, however, that it is not taught any longer. I believe it is just given up on at an earlier age, due in no small part to the use of typing on computer keyboards. I am more dismayed at the incredibly high incidence of poor spelling at adult levels. The excuse for children is the infamous spellchecker.
I am aware of a theory about that correlation, but I've never given it much thought. And the lady who called had had some occasion to see a sampling of different kids' writing; I don't really remember the circumstances, but she wasn't concerned with her own child, just a general concern about penmanship, which has never been a part of the middle school English curriculum. In fact, I don't even remember who did teach those classes; in the 7th grade I think.
From my own recollections I don't recall any greater number of gifted students having poor handwriting, but that may have been the case.
Helen,
Well, I was pretty sure that you wouldn't have fallen into those groups. The terms can obviously be confusing since the movements themselves and their excesses don't have any official educational name.
On a slightly different note, I discovered my first ripe tomato today. Bolstered the ol' self-esteem.
posted on July 9, 2002 07:55:48 PM new
antiquary- I wouldn't say it was a greater number, but rather a higher number than one would expect. It seems that the gifted feel it to be a very slow method of communication and as such do not feel compelled to take the extra time to do it right, although many actually have the skill. It is interesting that you recall penmanship being taught in the 7th grade, as now I believe it not to be taught beyond the 1st grade in most schools.
posted on July 9, 2002 08:06:18 PM new
I remember it being offered in the middle schools--a one semester course, though I don't believe that it was required. I was a little surprised also that a course was still being offered, but that was probably 15 years ago. I was likely consulting a master schedule to check English sections at that particular middle school when I noticed the course title. I would imagine that it's since gone by the wayside.
posted on July 9, 2002 08:58:16 PM newAntiquary:First Tomato is about a bunny girl who is having a *bad* day: she oversleeps, she spills her cereal, she gets snow in her shoes, math lasts for 2 hours, lunch is a bologna sandwich. As she waits for the school bus home, she dreams of the Bunny Planet...
Out beyond the moon and stars 20 lightyears south of Mars Spins the gentle Bunny Planet And the bunny queen is Janet
Janet says "Come in, here's the day that should have been."
The girl goes in and finds herself in garden. Her mother asks her to fetch a tomato so she can make tomato soup. She finds a single ripe tomato--the first of the season--and though tempted to eat it, she takes it back to her mother, who makes the soup because she loves her.
Then she wakes up as the school bus arrives to take her home. As they drive away, she sees the Bunny Planet in the sky...
"It was there all along."
edited for UBB
[ edited by bunnicula on Jul 9, 2002 08:59 PM ]
Like stusi said, the study of penmanship ended here in first grade.
On tomatoes...
I had my first tomato today also - one little cherry tomato! I am now being overwhelmed with birds. I counted 27 birds sitting on my tomato cages and a few more rolling in the dirt underneath the plants. I am afraid that they have plans to dine on my tomato patch. LOL!
The child is disturbed; no normal person would use the first ripe tomato to make soup. Yuck.
Helen,
Now that I think about it, I can't remember my son ever having to work with (I hesitate to use the word learning or instruction in this context) penmanship. But I never paid much attention to those sorts of things anyway. My wife would know.
posted on July 10, 2002 12:02:53 PM new
I know that none of you want to talk about this topic: you dance all around it, but you never stop to discuss it: School Vouchers, and their REAL point! Why talk about it? Because it is only One (1) way that organizations with a political agenda want to DESTROY Public Education! That means, that they what you are experiencing as teachers and librarians and other school officials that is beyond the norm is likely to be *more* than just the disintegration of the Family in society!
Half-way down the page - a quote from a religious leader:
"To abandon public education to Satan is to compormise our calling. The attitude and approach of Christians should be that they never expose their children to public education, but that they should work increasingly to expose public education to the claims of Christ. Certain specially suited Christians, in fact, should pray and work tirelessly to obtain teaching and school board and even administrative positions within public education. The penultimate goal of these Christians should be the privatization of these larcenous institutions, and the ultimate aim the bringing of them under the authority of Christ and His word." (Rev. Andrew Sandlin, Chalcedon Report, March 1994)"
And I know WHY you don't talk about it. It isn't because it is some far-fetched conspiracy issue. No. It's because the issue is upfront and real. Maybe ten years ago you could have talked about it in public, but now, you know it could mean your job to openly criticise this movement.
I'll keep saying it: School Vouchers have, but one purpose - to incorporate government tax dollars into funding religous schools and to destroy Public Education.
Now, if THAT isn't the Biggest Problem With Our Schools - what isn't it?
posted on July 10, 2002 12:54:49 PM new
Separation of Church and State must be maintained at all costs. There are some very clever rebuttals and explanations as to why vouchers are not a problem. They are all smokescreens for the funding of religious schools.
posted on July 10, 2002 12:58:47 PM new
Vouchers subvert the constitutional principle of separation of church and state and threaten to undermine our system of public education.
posted on July 10, 2002 01:22:11 PM new
Borillar, I certainly wasn't avoiding that subject, but the topic was the biggest problem with our schools.
The fanatical right has wanted to dismantle public education for at least fifty years and become much more strident and pervasive about it the last thirty. I don't know how anyone could call it a conspiracy theory since they've been pretty upfront about it. I would have thought that pretty much everyone knew that.
I don't think that the fanatical right first developed the voucher plans which have been around quite a while, since the 70s, but they did latch on to it, giving it greater impetus and providing a mindless chorus of followers who will repeat ad nauseum whatever mantras their semi-deified leaders provide them. Many supporters of the vouchers, which number has never been a majority in the nation, really believe that children may get a better education through this system, and depending upon their location and the options available, a few may do so, but there will be no significant change for the majority who try it and they will return to the public schools, in my opinion. Actually the few who go and stay will likely be the children of the most extreme and narrow fundamentalists and in that respect their absence may indirectly improve the schools since they will no longer have to expend already over-taxed demands and energy on the petty bickering and unreasonable demands of their parents who expect everyone else to conform to their distorted views.
I believe that it will drain some funds from the public schools and create other problems, but it will be another failed experiment. Just more wasted taxpayer money to support the zany attempts of the radical right to re-engineer reality.
