posted on July 9, 2002 09:54:08 AM new
Twinsoft - Inglewood, CA is very much like Palo Alto now. A very rough town.
I saw the tape too and agree with those who saw it as the other officers getting between the boy and the abusing officer.
As usual, we share here what has been our life experiences. We know the officers we've dealt with to be super human beings. No different that any other profession....like KatyD said...there are bad apples in any profession. But our experience has only been a positive one.
Sure some get fed up and lose control of their actions, and will pay the price for those poor decisions. But to paint with such a broad brush is really unfair.
What we are shown on TV doesn't represent a balanced view, IMO, of the majority of police officers and how they do their jobs.
posted on July 9, 2002 10:11:44 AM new
Linda, you mean EAST Palo Alto. Palo Alto, the city, is still very much hoity toity.
As for wages, in California, Bay Area PD's are the highest paid in the state. The cost of living is the highest and most officers cannot afford to live in the same city they work because of the cost of housing. As for being well-paid, the average officer's base salary of 50-60K may be "well-paid" for places like Ohio or Kentucky, but in California it is barely a living wage.
posted on July 9, 2002 10:17:43 AM new
There was an article, for example, that showed average salaries of from $65 - 90K with overtime frequently running it over $120K. It was done following a similar incident in San Francisco, and presented an argument counter to yours.
posted on July 9, 2002 10:25:17 AM new
So post it then. As I said, BAY AREA pd's are the highest paid, San Francisco is near the top. I know of no departments that pay 90K base salary for a regular officer. Since you know so much, of course you know that base salary doesn't necessarily include POST certification pay (varying from dept to dept) bi-lingual pay, specialty pay (depending upon assignments) and a whole number of other variables. PORAC just published an article on law enforcement wages which included the statistics I mentioned. Or do YOU know better?
I thought not. Stick to what you DO know, like silly conspiracy theories.
posted on July 9, 2002 10:26:59 AM new
Yes, KatyD, thank you. I was making a comparison of East Palo Alto and Inglewood.
And you're sure right about their wages. We got to know many San Jose police officers when our Pop Warner Football league hired them to protect the weekly Bingo game we held to support the eight teams we had. I remember thinking, at that time, what a shame they had to work additional part-time jobs just to make ends meet. And that was in the late 70s.
We also had a family on our block that was selling drugs. The SJ police did, very much, help our neighborhood deal with them each and every time. Twice there were big shoot-outs when someone the homeowners had pissed off came for revenge. It was wonderful to know that the police would be on the scene in no time to deal with the situation. At at one point the SJ police arrested one of these drug dealers...he died on the way to the hospital. Everyone screamed about police brutality....bs...he was found to have been high on PCP, swinging from a tree with a knive, and had threaten the life of a young boy riding his bike home. As police tried to arrest him, he was running through the neighbors fences. But, of course...it was all blamed on the actions of the police. Court case came about....officers were cleared.
There are many other positive experiences we've had and we hold a tremendous amount of respect for police officers putting their lives on the line, all in the publics best interest. But one doesn't read about those very often.
posted on July 9, 2002 10:27:50 AM new
There is no excuse for brutalizing a "criminal" once he/she is hand cuffed and being held by 5 cops.
It makes NO difference what the suspect said or did before he was hand cuffed and subdued.
It makes NO difference what their pay scale is.
It makes NO difference how many times a policeman has risked his/her life. There are many jobs that carry a risk of death or serious injury, this does not entitle the person to a "free pass" to commit assault and battery, especially upon a teenager that could not even defend himself with his hands cuffed behind his back.
Fireman may be underpaid, and they risk their lives, so should we overlook it if a fireman should rape someone ? Should we bring up that the fireman man have had a bad day and saved 3 people in a raging fire, or that the woman had once been arrested for arson ?
We when start giving entitlements to individuals and overlook or rationalize away brutal acts and crimes because of their perceived position, we are making a political decision about a crime. It means we do not have a justice system, and must confirm what Karl Marx said about the law- "all law is politics". This also means that it is OK to brutalize political minorities. The law means nothing unless it equally protects the lowliest and most despised among us.
If that kid had hit, shoved, cussed and spit at those officers before he was cuffed and being held by 5 officers, it still is criminal to slam him onto the car and sucker punch him.
I commend the officer who may have attempted to stop the criminal from hitting or strangling the hand cuffed kid, but I also condemn every officer there for not disarming and hand cuffing the officer that committed the assault and battery on the suspect.
Imagine what each of those officers would have done if they had come upon a civilian that had a 16 year old with his hands tied behind his back and witnessed you slamming him into the ground and then hitting him in the face with your fist. Would those cops stand there and watch you do it ? You would be tackled, hand cuffed and arrested for torture, assualt, child abuse, and possibly kidnapping.
If a parent had done this to their 16 year old child, NO MATTER WHAT THE CHILD HAD DONE, the parent would be arrested. But because a cop did it, we immediately must start to find excuses why it was OK.
It is not ok. There is nothing that kid could have done prior to being cuffed that excuses that brutality.
posted on July 9, 2002 10:32:07 AM new
this is EXACTLY why I have no respect for police officers you put them in a uniform they are different people....I hope this guy gets put in a predominately AFRICAN AMERICAN JAIL, highly unlikely, that would teach him a thing or two.
the few times I have had a brush with the law or seen an incident involving a police officer attitude is what they always have and give out.
posted on July 9, 2002 10:37:15 AM new
Gee what was that sleepy little town in Florida with the highest salaries in the country?
You're right, Reamond, and there is a culture of police that allows such stuff day in and day out. Any police who object do so at their own risk and since they usually are the only ones beside the victims who know what happens it keeps happening. Thank goodness for video cameras. Still, the most notorious cases in recent news have been those arising in Los Amgeles - you'd think that these in Englewood might have at least learned some restraint.
posted on July 9, 2002 10:40:16 AM newthere is a culture of police that allows such stuff day in and day out. Any police who object do so at their own risk and since they usually are the only ones beside the victims who know what happens it keeps happening.
Everything's a conspiracy, eh KRS? You don't know a damn thing about "police culture". You don't know a damn thing about alot, but especially about police.
Put simply, you are full of s h i t. But you already know that.
KatyD
edited to call it what it is.
[ edited by KatyD on Jul 9, 2002 10:42 AM ]
posted on July 9, 2002 10:51:54 AM new
What I've said is true, and it's made evident evry time there's another incident like this one.
If it weren't then how is it that so much covering up is exposed when there is a successful investigation? Look at the recent fiasco in Oakland, CA for example.
The one thing that I don't have is your bias. How you, the wife of a police officer, can pretend to any impartiality makes you ridiculous in every discussion of brutality that arises.
posted on July 9, 2002 10:55:34 AM new
KRS posted:
We had this as a subject a while back and it was found that police pay, while varying across regions was not considered to be low and in many areas is actually pretty high.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:00:05 AM new
Irene, are you using the search tool that I gave you? I'm only getting something called "brding.com" that's trying to load but won't.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:04:44 AM new
We can only conclude that there is something wrong with the institutional culture of the police, and it seems never to change because we always revert to the excuse that it was a "bad apple" or individual act by a rogue cop.
What we have seen was not an act by an individual. The broom stick rape of the prisoner in NYC was not merely the act of an individual.
There is something wrong with all of the cops at the scene when they do not arrest the cop actually commiting the crime.
There can only be one conclusion when a cop brutalizes a teenager that is hand cuffed and all but helpless, and his fellow officers do not disarm and arrest that officer. That officer drove away from the scene of his crime fully armed and fully enabled to commit more such crimes or worse. The cop should have been hand cuffed and arrested at the scene, just like any civilian would have been had we committed such an assault.
We can only conclude that there is an institutional culture among the police that entitles them to act above the law that applies to the rest of us. This has been known for decades, but no one in authority will make the charge or take the steps necessary to change it.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:11:45 AM new
Oh, Oakland, CA? They could NEVER pay police officers enough to work in that city. An up-and-coming Watts, IMO.
We were very close to running out of gas one night on our way to a concert. Pulled off the freeway and were scared to death at what we experienced. We had obviously driven into a neighborhood where whites weren't wanted. They were yelling, "Go home whitie"...and many other things I don't want to post. That was our first experience with not feeling save in any town we'd ever been in.
Anyone who reads the news or watches the reports on Oakland, CA. would realize that the police have their hands full trying to protect and serve there.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:13:45 AM new
On the 4th of July, we had a police officer brutally murdered here. Did you hear about it? Seems he came upon two individuals stealing guns. Damn fool tried to use proper police procedure to apprehend them. Did you hear about? They shot him 15 times and then ran over him with a truck. Remember it now, did you hear about? Naw, guess not, he was only a police officer, it was his job to DIE and leave his children fatherless. But let a cop say a four-letter word to a criminal and it is plastered all over the country page one and lead story. YES, police officer's do bad things. But police officers are killed daily and they are lucky for it to be reported in the obits.
If you continue to beat your dog every day, it will come back and bite you. The police are treated very badly in this country with even less respect, I look at this brutality as the reaction. NOT THAT IT IS RIGHT, but I can understand. When you watch and hear of your buddies, your extended family, being gunned down in the street without without so much as a public yawn, you eventually will lash out, irrationally. And the rest of your extended family WILL try and protect you because...they understand also.
They did catch the two murders and brought them in, in one piece. How many of you out there, if you caught the people who murdered someone in your family, would have brought them back in one piece. I personally would sent them to the jail...in many small boxes...with postage due...
.
Reality is a serious condition brought on by a lack of alcohol in the system
posted on July 9, 2002 11:18:04 AM new
Clarksville, I dont CARE if he spit at the officers or if he DID try to bite them. He was HOG TIED and SLAMMED into the hood with his head. I didnt see any struggles from him even when he was lifted high and then slammed down, by the chain on his NECK. If that were your son, would you be as sure there MAY have been a supposed attack of biting? I think not. And the cop PUNCHED him while he was HELD by the others. You can wash it any way you want, but the camera doesnt lie. I dont care what the kid did BEFORE. The officers were 4 or 5 to one. And the one was hog tied. And hit. And slammed. No excuse. None at all.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:18:33 AM newWe can only conclude.....but just as when 5 people witness an accident...they all see it a little differently. The same applies here, to me. I don't conclude the same things you do. To me, we each form our opinions from our experiences. Yours are just different than say mine.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:25:02 AM new
Actually, Oakland's not so bad anymore, and unless you've got an attitude against black peopple it never was except during the rioting that was generalized around the country. Jerry Brown is mayor, and he's decidedly for the people and the people pick up on it. There are parts that I wouldn't want to be caught in at night, but not more than in any other city, and there are large parts that are completely comfortable to be in. The murder rate is up a little so far this year, but it's shown a steady decline over the past five to ten years.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:26:00 AM new
No, Maui. He wasn't "hog tied". He was handcuffed. And the other officers were NOT holding him down so he could be "punched". In fact, the video clearly shows the other officers trying to restrain the one officer. Put your glasses on. And it might help if you understood what "hog tied" really is.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:27:38 AM new
[i]"but just as when 5 people witness an accident...they all see it a little differently"[i]
But this was no accident. This was an intentional assault. Police officers are considered specially trained observers and their eyewitness testimony is given special consideration in courts.
Otherwise, police should not even be allowed to make arrests based on what the observe.
However, I will agree that police officers must "see" things very differently when they witness one of their fellow officers commit a brutal crime.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:33:30 AM new
Oh, post a police assn. survey of selected cities to be used in arguments for salary increases by police labor assn. and call it all inclusive or accurate? I don't see Walnut Creek on there, for example, or Concord, Lafeyette, Atherton, Burlingame, Palo Alto Hills, Belvedere, Tiburon, San Rafael, Kentfield, Larkspur, Mill Valley, Fairfax, San Rafael, Alameda, to name a few, nor do I see any information about the ratio of applicants to openings in police agencies around the state. It would seem to me that if there are 3000 applicants for each opening, say, then the police are paid more than enough. If they feel otherwise there's certainly someone willing to take their place. Where else can a person with no more than a high school diploma start out making $3500. + a month?
posted on July 9, 2002 11:35:04 AM new
The basic hog-tie for hep.
The basic position is simple: The submissive is made to lay face down, then their wrists are tied behind their back and their ankles are tied together. The ankles are then pulled up toward their wrists and a rope is run from the wrists to the ankles, lashing them together. This is a highly restraining position (probably too much so for first bondage) and provides good access to the front of the submissive’s body. How far back should you pull the ankles? That depends on how immobilized you want your submissive to be. The farther back you pull the ankles, the more you immobilize the submissive. A submissive’s whose ankles are pulled «all the way back» for example, cannot do much except lie on their stomach. On the other hand, a submissive whose ankles are only pulled back about halfway (forming a 90-degree angle with the ground) can - with assistance - lie on their back or stomach, kneel, and sit cross-legged This is especially true if the ankles were bound using cinch loops.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:35:39 AM new
According to what I saw on the tape, it does not appear to have been intentional on the other officers' part. It appears that the alleged offending officer had lost his control.
They are trained to maintain control for the safety of themselves, their fellow officers and for the public, not necessarily in that order. Being human beings, they do fall short at times. Don't we all???
I have seen officers maintain control when I would have punched the criminal or worse.
We expect human beings to do the dirty work of serving and protecting us, yet they have to be perfect. No exceptions.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:40:19 AM new
On the other side of the "bad cop" fence, here in my little town we dont have a police force. We have the sheriff. THey were going to close it down and take the substation away and we all had hissy fits. They didnt close it. I was at the supermarket and saw something rare for this neck of the woods...a lone officer, trying to handcuff a drunk out in the parking lot. The drunk was fighting him off, and shoppers dropped what they were doing and went to his assistence. I was there too...but by the time I got to the ruckus, the man was cuffed and sitting on the curb, with the officer calling for backup since the drunks friend was hollering and bellering and acting like he was going to get involved. However, he couldnt do much of anything because the shoppers had him surrounded..just standing there, but protecting the officer too. No guns drawn, no head slamming, no attacks. Just a small wrestle match to get the cuffs on and the cop knowing others were there to help if need be. As I walked back to my car, the officer thanked everyone for "being there" and offering assistance. THe drunk just grinned and weaved on the curb. All was well. We are lucky in this town. THe cops (sheriffs and chp)know they are appreciated and they also know they are wanted and that we, the civilians, will do what we can to make sure they stay.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:42:58 AM new
I know what hogtied is. And this kid was treated like I wouldnt want my DOG treated. YOu can color it anyway you want and it will still be the same. Having his hands behind his back, TIED, his chain wrapped around his neck and STRANGLING him, having him tripped then picked up and SLAMMED against the hard hood of a car. Call it what you will..its hog tieing and ABUSE. I have my glasses on, thanks. I see just fine.
posted on July 9, 2002 11:44:06 AM new
There are not 3000 appicants for each opening, krs. Some departments prefer to hire entry level and send them to the academy. Some departments want only laterals. Just depends. That is a good cross-section of salaries and benefits paid to law enforcement in California. Sorry if you don't like those facts. But that's the way it is. As for the cities you mentioned, all of them are Bay Area cities, and their salaries are on a par with the rest of the Bay Area cities cited in the Porac study. As you can see, they are significantly higher than So. Ca.
Most departments are preferring applicants with college degrees these days, and will pay incentive for those that do have them.
KatyD
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