posted on July 17, 2002 10:15:42 PM new
I wish I had the answers, kraftdinner. It's so sad. The perps are so brave they come into their homes, steal them from their own porches and front yards, etc.
In this thread you referenced, there's another story about two children who's mother attempted to kill them [and herself]. She was successful at taking her daughter's life and her own. Her son is still in a coma.
Truly heartbreaking stories. I just wish that our justice system would act much more severely with those who hurt or kill children.
posted on July 17, 2002 10:41:23 PM new
It just seems like there's so many anymore Linda. I read the other one too and wondered why people take their hostilities out on children?
Are they sick or are they in control of their thoughts?
posted on July 17, 2002 10:56:35 PM new
It's mentally ill behavior. Society produces too many sickies who do not get the treatment that they need, due to the stereotyping of mental illness as some sort thing for weaklings and sub-humans. With industrial pollution adding to the genetic and social contributions that is responsible for the mentally ill, look for more damaged people in the future running around doing these things. It won't get better until we diagnose and treat (and/or incarcerate) the dangerously mentally ill persons, while working away at the causes of brain disorders.
posted on July 17, 2002 11:02:45 PM new
Although I haven't seen any stats on the subject, an "expert" on TV the other night stated that there were as many crimes against children 50 years ago as adjusted for the population, but you didn't have the national media coverage that you do now.
posted on July 18, 2002 02:26:16 AM new
How about some of them are just willfully evil people who only need the treatment of being shot out of hand like a rabid dog so others are safe?
Treatment is all fine and good if you HAVE an effective treatment but the science is not there yet to even agree on diagnosis most of the time, much less treatment. We are still far away from looking with instruments at the brain and understanding patterns that define an illness.
Even if we could I suspect some people like in the military would show the same patterns as a murderer. They just do the killing for society instead of themselves.
posted on July 18, 2002 04:07:53 AM new
Gravids post in another location covered it perfectly.
The crimminal element has become fully aware that the government is incapable of protecting you.b That the best they can do is pick them up afterwards. You must act to protect yourself.
personally I'd give the tribes the island back and demand to know where everyone of those damm beads are.
If I were a rich man, I would a reward of $1000 per baseball-sized piece of the perp brought to me, but he must be brought in alive. Not the pieces, just the main body must be alive.
.
Reality is a serious condition brought on by a lack of alcohol in the system
posted on July 18, 2002 08:06:41 AM new
These cases are always horrible.
Whether child molesters are mentally ill or evil, gravid is right about treatment. My own opinion is they are not psychotic. The treatments that are available don't work, shown by the very high rate of recidivism among convicted pedophiles. Child molesters prey on the weakest members of society, and it is society's duty to protect them.
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on July 18, 2002 11:55:34 AM new
So...does this mean that as a society we don't value our children enough because we aren't changing our laws?
Like you said snowyegret, since we know the known treatments aren't working and once released many appear to re-offend, then why are we letting them out at all? Life long sentences, at hard labor, would be my sentence for them. That way we guarantee they won't be re-offending.
The way it is now, they're given second, third and sometimes more chances to prove they've been rehabilitated. All the while, more children are being hurt or being killed.
posted on July 18, 2002 12:23:10 PM new
I know in a civilized society we should be trying to help the weak, but I honestly think the people that commit these crimes are making a choice, not that they're doing things that are out of their control. Are they sick? Just as much as anyone who commits murder or other crimes. But these people prepare for their crimes by reading child pornography and sharing stories on the internet. They perpetuate their own "sickness" then are treated like the 'truly sick' when they're caught, allowing them to hide under that guise until they're released. Then the cycle starts again.
What part of any of these crimes is out of the perpetrators control?
posted on July 18, 2002 12:24:43 PM new
I remember a case years ago in Tx where a convicted pedophile opted for chemical castration. If I remember correctly, he knew what he was doing was wrong, and castration "would take away the urges".
I also was living in NJ when the Megan Kanka case happened, and it wasn't that far away from where we lived.
Yes, Linda, I do believe in longer sentences for pedophiles. I rarely support mandatory sentencing, such as for crimes commited with a gun, because of that one freak case that can come along where the law is actually unjust, but I would probably support it for pedophiles. This is not something that can be rehabilitated at this time. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on July 18, 2002 12:31:20 PM new
Irene Castration would be a cheaper way of ensuring they don't re-offend. Seriously I used to believe that's what should be done to the offenders. But now I believe that wouldn't do the trick. This 'sickness' is in their minds [thoughts], so even though they might have a 'member' castrated, they'd still be able to do harm to a child in other ways.
I remember watching a short news video of a father that caught his child's perp on his way into a court room. He shot him in the head. Since I work at being civilized I don't think I could do that myself...but I sure can understand how a mother or a father could/would/did.
posted on July 18, 2002 12:42:29 PM new
Does any know if castration works? Snowy?
I almost understand why that man shot the perpetrator Linda.... some of these criminals come off with such arrogance in front of family members it's sickening.
I've often asked myself those tough questions... if I saw a person trying to rape or kill a child, I think I would be able to shoot him. I'm not sure but I think I would snap. If I knew beforehand that I'd spend 10 years in prison, but the child was unharmed, I would do it.
posted on July 18, 2002 12:53:06 PM new
Kraft, if it worked, they shouldn't have the sexual drives, but they could certainly still abuse a child. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on July 18, 2002 12:54:00 PM new
Pre-frontal lobotomies is the way to go.
Violence in video games and to a lesser degree on TV and movies has to have something to do with all this.[video games moreso because of the interaction with the game..you know..ripping peoples heads off, beating them up etc] It somehow desensitizes some personality types,makes them less able to empathize with others.
I think our kids are different too. When we were young we were told to not take candy from strangers.I remember being much more leary even with just that small warning than kids are today. Little kids just seem to be overly friendly,overly trusting. Why is that? Is it the daycare environment so many grow up in? Being around so many adults other than their parents? I have no clue but something is different even in our kids.
posted on July 18, 2002 01:17:48 PM new"So...does this mean that as a society we don't value our children enough because we aren't changing our laws?"
Linda's question is one that many Americans ask. But Laws do not protect us - they deal with the problem AFTER the fact. In my opinion, it is a matter of early identification, intervention, and treatment for these people BEFORE they commit crimes of this sort.
But no "solution" is ever going to catch them all, or prevent all crime of this sort. Not unless you can convince GOD Himself to come down and wave His Hand and >POOF!<, all of that sort of thing goes away forever. Short of that, there always will be these monsters among us.
But sitting around and doing nothing until after the guy or gal is caught is seriously stupid and worse, it is downright criminal on OUR part to not be doing all that we can to prevent these crimes from happening in the first place. By that I mean, we need to focus on what causes these people to become warped this way. They usually start off in childhood. Can't we do something then? And for the ones that refuse to get treated, can't we commit them to incarceration early to protect ourselves until a "cure" can be found?
Putting Child Molesters in prison teaches them one lesson: when they get out, if they re-offend - KILL the victim!
Therefore, do not put Child Molesters in prison to punish them, but to keep society safe from them.
Encourage your legislator to support research on early prevention and treatment and to change the laws so that these people are not punished (which means let them go after a certain amount of time, back into society to be a risk), but are committed to institutions where they will not be able to leave until they can be "fixed."
As far as castration goes, that won't stop them. Raping and killing a child is not about sex.
posted on July 18, 2002 01:55:55 PM new
So is society raising a bunch of men that are so emasculated they have to seek out 5 year olds to kill for their sense of power?
REAMOND says that some people don't believe there are more crimes like this, just more media coverage. I don't agree with that. I also think crimes that were committed 50 years ago were done by people who were truly sick. Nowadays, this type of crime seems to be self-promoted through available pornography, etc., and are becoming more sick and violent. Don't forget, it wasn't that long ago that the creators of "I Dream Of Jeannie" were told they weren't allowed to show Jeannie's belly button. Now look at what's on TV.
I agree that we're being desensitized by the flood of garbage available. It's being played out by people on a daily basis and we wonder why?
Sometimes I wonder if we've gone too far and won't be able to turn things around(?).
[ edited by kraftdinner on Jul 18, 2002 03:24 PM ]
posted on July 18, 2002 03:19:22 PM new
Wow - I did a search and found the following:
CALIFORNIA - BOARD OF PRISION TERMS - CHEMICAL CASTRATION
On September 18, 1996, AB 3339 became law, amending section 645 of the Penal Code. The amended statute provides that any person guilty of a first conviction of specified sex offenses, where the victim is under 13 years of age, may be required to receive medroxy progesterone acetate treatment upon parole, and any person convicted of two such offenses must receive the treatment during parole. This medication is administered by injection and has the effect of lowering the testosterone level, blunting the sex drive. The parolee begins the treatments prior to his release on parole and the treatments continue until the Department of Corrections demonstrates to the Board of Prison Terms that this treatment is no longer necessary.
I'll look for an abstract on the Norwegian study that is being cited. Haven't found it so far. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on July 18, 2002 04:39:03 PM new
Interesting links, Snowy. If castration works with certain offenders and allows them their freedom and ability to lead some kind of "normal" life instead of being outcasts, I wonder how can that be considered "cruel and unusual punishment", particularly if the alternative is life behind bars - and prison justice from other inmates.
Irene
[ edited by stockticker on Jul 18, 2002 04:40 PM ]
posted on July 18, 2002 05:20:05 PM new
Thank you both for those links. Interesting reading.
Clearly, our criminal justice system cannot deter perpetrators of sex crimes from re-offending.
But we can if we don't ever release them. Or, for those like me, the death penalty would work just fine. [Another subject].
The thing I'd worry about with the chemical castration is that it sounded to me like once they're no longer taking the medication these urges return. So...my question would be what's to keep them from leaving [say the state] and offending again. We are a very mobile country. Many are moving all the time. We already know how many sex offenders don't register as they are required to do.
I don't know of any sure way to keep these people from re-offending except to never release them. Will that cost a lot? Sure...but what cost is a child's life worth? And what did one of those articles say... 500,000 a year?
Historically, surgical castration had been used for the treatment of severe paraphilias, mostly sexual sadism and pedophilia. The individuals who were castrated were high-risk, highly recidivating sexual offenders. Surgical castration resulted in a reduction of recidivism from over 60% to less than 5% in the majority of cases (16). Langeluddeke reported that the recidivism rate for castrated offenders was 2.3%, compared to 80% in the untreated group, when studied for up to 20 years (17). Cornu reported the recidivism rate fell from 75% to 4.1% in castrated sexual offenders over a five year period (18). Sturup's findings were similar (19). Despite some methodological problems with these studies, they clearly demonstrated that castration reduced recidivism substantially (20). Furthermore, it was the understanding of the biological mechanism by which surgical castration affected deviance that drove the development of antiandrogen treatment for the paraphilias.
Now the first article I linked in my upper post stated that castration was used on preferential pedophiles with sucess in the Norwegian study. These other articles are not differentiating.
If the treatment works, and removes the predatory behaviour, I don't know either. Very interesting. I kept hearing no tx was working. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on July 19, 2002 01:11:02 PM new
They've caught a suspect in this case but I guess castration isn't a consideration....
Instead, they are debating whether sexual offenders should be forced to have their DNA kept on file. Can you believe this isn't done already? This is a prime example of what you were talking about LindaK... criminals having more rights. Like duh.
posted on July 19, 2002 01:50:07 PM new
Did you hear the 911 tape of the guy who found the little girls body? Damn I feel sorry for him as well as the parents.
Their lives..from now on, gone.
posted on July 19, 2002 01:51:17 PM new
I don't see why we always focus on how to react to the crime after it has been committed, rather than trying to figure out ways to prevent these crimes from happening.
In one of the links above, a guy said that when he was 12, a 34 year old aunt fondled him. When he himself turned 34, he found himself with an urge to fondle his 12 year old step-daughter which got him into trouble with the law.
Question: should the aunt have been punished and sent through the system as a sex offender and the young boy to have received psychological treatment, or was the boy just being "lucky"?
posted on July 19, 2002 01:55:29 PM new
" It won't get better until we diagnose and treat (and/or incarcerate) the dangerously mentally ill persons, while working away at the causes of brain disorders. "
Boy howdy! read my other post... and then tell me where to get the help my son needs. You cannot force them to do ANYTHING (I am speaking of treatment, etc.) If they are over 18. Not unless they do physical bodily harm to themselves or someone else, or the judge decides to force them....
And, if you can get the system to even help you, you are lucky!
posted on July 19, 2002 02:37:41 PM new
The Aunt" should do time.Keeping it in the family is incest.
Luckey is a 17 year old wanting to show a young man the ropes.(Both under age) No laws broken.
There is no way to help a pervert before a crime is commited.
The only early signs of future problems I've ever heard about is if the kid(male or female)harms or sexual assaults annimals at a young age,Or showing uncontrolable rage.
Even then a parent may blow the actions off
as he-she is just a kid and they are at that age.
[ edited by junquemama on Jul 19, 2002 02:38 PM ]
I don't think I could do that myself...but I sure can understand how a mother or a father could/would/did. 