posted on September 11, 2002 12:19:22 AM new
I find it ironic that men won't allow women to do certain things in the military...and then resent them for "not having to do them."
As to female performance in battle, up until modern times when physicals became required (post Civil War period), many women disguised themselves as men and performed just as well as men on the battle field. And we're talking conditions far worse than today's. During the Civil War itself at least 400 women did so, and many more probably went undetected. During World War II, women were a large part of resistance groups and the Russian army utilized them as well.
The same argument used against women in the military--that men would be distracted, that they are weak or a liability--is used against homosexuals. Also ironic considering they have been in the military throughout history & caused no problems at all. One of history's greatest military minds, Alexander, was homosexual...
posted on September 11, 2002 05:01:27 AM new
I suppose my view of females was warped forever by my Mom and Dad. Dad was a Ranger in WWII and was discharged on a mental. When he took a .45 in hand and shot a target the holes would all be in a grape cluster in the middle - but Mom taught me to shoot because she was better. When we walked the outer banks in North Carolina we'd have the old steel cans of pop and when you got done you'd yell pull and throw the can in the air. My Mom would draw and shoot the can four or five times on the way down until it was such a twisted rag of steel you could not tell it had been a cylinder. She never went to formal shoots but I would put her against any combat handgun champ I have every seen.
Once at the Ohio state fair the state police had a movie projector set up to show how hard it was for cops to decide when to shoot. The projector would freeze when the shot sounded and you'd see the hole in the screen. The people were making fools of themselves. I volunteered my Mom and she aced five out of five. One was returning fire on a figure in the dark after the lights went out. She had to remember where he had been to shoot. When they backed the film up to where the lights were on the hole was right between his eyebrows.
posted on September 11, 2002 06:34:00 AM new
I think I'll wade in here just for kicks......
I may have a "warped" sense about women in the military. They torque me off. You all talk about their equality and such but I remember....
I was in the MI branch which meant lots of female soldiers mixed with the males. I remember many field exercises digging foxholes for the women soldiers after I had dug my own. I remember unloading heavy equipment for them, setting up their equipment, all because they "were not as strong." Now you may call it the fault of the command structure but realize one thing, no one peep of complaint came from the women for being treated "differently" They only complained about the "discrimination" when it wasn't to their advantage. And that is the way I see most complaints by women today. Only when it is to their advantage.
A further example....we are having construction done close by. There is a women working there who got hired by complaining that the construction company didn't want her because she is a women. She wanted the high pay. So now she has the job....as a permanent flagperson. No complaints from her about not doing the hard work!
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
posted on September 11, 2002 07:43:36 AM new
mlecher,Complaint noted.I will send out emails to all the women in the world.
Somebody
somewhere is slacking off,and it must be a woman.
posted on September 11, 2002 08:10:46 AM new
I KNEW you all belonged to a special club!
No, its not slacking, it is "using." It is using the sterotype when it is to their advantage. And complaining when it is not. A little consistency would be appreciated.
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
posted on September 11, 2002 08:31:06 AM new
mlecher,I don't really know what to say.I had an Uncle that was a flagman and he hated it.It was the sissy job.
If a woman can't pull her weight or do the job,and this is proven,Then by all means she needs to be let go.
The same is to be said of any man that can't or won't do the job.
posted on September 11, 2002 08:44:28 AM new
lecher,
What is MI branch?
How many women were in your field exercises?
Please give the unit so your data can be checked. Borillar wants hard data on women's equal roles in the military. I think we should have "hard data" on women's lack of strength by eye-witnesses! Show me the data!
How many years ago?
Did they beg to have help, or did males feel more manly saying "Here, I will do that for you!" Truth, ye who are faceless and nameless!
Did you write anything about your experiences?
I read (and was told growing up) that if you could do it, don't. Let the male take over it is good for his ego. I was married 30 years ago, and still remember asking my husband for help when I knew I could do it myself. It was ridiculous seeing him puff up proudly! Doesn't happen anymore.
When I have trouble because of hand pain, I ask because he doesn't have it, not for any other reason.
Re the construction site:
Did she opt for the position, or was she given the flag person position with presumably high pay because it was commanded by the site managers?
If the woman ask to be put on the construction job, but was given the flag person job, then the ACLU should be alerted don't you think? She has been relegated to a lesser position (apparently) because of her sex.
Did she have a choice of jobs and took the flag pole job because it was easier, instead of an unsafe job like high beam, or whatever it is called?
Hard data for Borillar please!
Did you want to reveal what city this happened in? What construction company did the dirty deed happen in?
It sounds to me like management got her off their back, and provided laughs for you and the workers, right? What if that was your Mom, your wife, your daughter or niece? Would you still be laughing? If your wife wanted to provide food for your family, would you still be laughing?
I know you just joined the conversation for "kicks." But if you have time, I would really like to know about the two groups you speak about. Thank you.
edited for extra sentence.
[ edited by aposter on Sep 11, 2002 08:46 AM ]
posted on September 11, 2002 08:49:40 AM new
Mlecher, why did you do their work for them? Were you ordered to?
Men populate most legislative bodies around the world. Men start these wars and order troops to combat. Then they p & m about women not having enough upper body strength to pull their share. Give me a break!!! When we, as women or minorities, have our fair share of House and Senate seats maybe we'll feel sorry for ya.
posted on September 11, 2002 09:49:04 AM new
Look, the question was asked in my thread where I changed the topic to Citizenship, "Why can't women serve on submarines?" Since I was in the Navy and have some experience there, I decided to be polite and to try to describe what it is like ikn the Navy so that you could understand why they do not let women on submarines.
Instead, you've targeted me with crap. Thanks!
BTW: mlechter is not the only one with stories to tell like that. I experienced the same type of discrimination in the millitary. I've purposely foregone describing it in previous posts because if you'll attack me for trying to be helpful, you'd all go apeshit if I told you about how it was for women in the Navy back when I was in.
posted on September 11, 2002 09:53:26 AM new
>Mlecher, why did you do their work for them? Were you ordered to?
saabsister, I swear on a stack of bibles that this is a true story: for a short time, I was in a training squadron to learn how to fix the aircraft. In this training squadron there were women doing the same job that I did, since it was not a combat squadron. I learned that any woman could shang-hai one or more sailors of any rank at any time in order to get them to do some heavy or dirty work. I refused one time, as I was busy doing my own job, and the next thing you know I was in trouble! The Senior Chief of Maintainance came out to the aircraft that I was working on and ordered me to go do what she wanted! That was a cute little lesson to learn!
posted on September 11, 2002 10:19:25 AM new
MI is the Military Intelligence Branch(we wore the same brass insignia as the fighter pilots on Battlestar Gallactica). About half the unit was women, mainly as Translators and other language specialities and Radio-Telephone intercept. I was in Ground Surveillance Radar but for awhile I was reassigned to S-1 Personnel(the unit was going computerized and I had taken some college classes in computers). This was in late 70's to mid 80's.
Yes, we were ordered. Once we were set up, details were gathered to do the remainder of the set-up.
No I have never written about it, I just have to laugh to myself whenever a woman complains about "equality" they have start realizing, it is a sword that cuts BOTH ways. If you want to be treated equally in the good stuff, you have to do the "dirty stuff" equally.
FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO WONDER.....
Was there sex on these exercises????
Only if you got it within the first few days. After that long without a shower, NO ONE wanted to get that close to each other.
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
posted on September 11, 2002 10:19:45 AM new
Borillar, in the Dark Ages when I was working my way through college, I had a job as a sales clerk. One evening instead of standing behind the counter waiting for the store to close another woman and I asked the supervisor to let us check out the registers, round up the shopping carts, and sweep the floor. (You can tell by now how bored we were.)He said ,"sure". Well, some light colonel happened to be stopping off for some cigs or something and saw that there had been a change of routine - the women were sweeping up instead of the guys who usually did it. He read the store manager the Riot Act and wanted to know why the women (in our mandatory dresses)were doing this grunt work. (I wondered who cleaned his house!) Anyway, the next night we were back behind the counters selling cigs, cameras, and cosmetics. This garbage happens to both sexes. It's just that those of us who weren't born white males have put up with a lot of this s---t most of our lives, not just some occasional slight. (More men sleep with the enemy than they realize.)
posted on September 11, 2002 10:27:37 AM new
I recall hearing in the Army that soldiers in combat sometimes carry as much as 80 pounds on their backs and even then, somtimes they carry half of a 50 caliber machine gun weighting another 20 pounds if I recall these numbers correctly. So how did the women who were put through combat training do it? Their load was shifted to the rtest of the men in the squad! That meant, that if a gal could only carry 30 or 40 pounds on her back, the rest of her gear had to go onto the burderened men. If the squad had several women and less men, then what laod do you think those men had to carry through the mud, jungles, deserts? And it is VORBODEN to complain, as *that* will get you into trouble as well!
Maybe things have changed for women in Army combat roles since the 1980s, I wouldn't know. Just thought that I'd point that out as well.
posted on September 11, 2002 10:43:37 AM newGee! How about, "Thank you, Borillar, for sharing that information to help answer my question!"
Nothing was shared! We call that bitchen.
posted on September 11, 2002 10:58:08 AM newWas there sex on these exercises????
That thought didn't even cross my mind. Never would have.
Isn't one of the reasons women are discriminated against is because of a male's failure to get his hand (and mind) out of his pants? Putting it nicely.
=================
Borillar:
I wouldn't be able to swear on a stack of bibles about my experiences because I wasn't allowed to do ANY military work, but if I had I wonder how many men I would find trying to get out of work?
And concerning your last comment. How is it that so many mid-eastern women, island women and Mexican women carry very heavy loads on their heads, but the army has to divy up loads because women can't do it in the U.S.
Could it possibly be called a "set-up?" Just wondered.
My Dad told stories about men sneaking off base, getting things from the PX to use for evening parties, "borrowing" an officer's jeep. My uncle talked of stealing chickens in Germany, sneaking out to beer halls. I could go on, but won't. You seen to be implying that women didn't pull their weight, but all men did. There seemed to be a lot of activities going on to show men weren't
always there to pull their weight!
Do you just leave the male slacker stories out to deceive or did you all have fantastic units? The
men sneaking out for a beer weren't where they were supposed to be in case of enemy fire were
they? When they took the jeep they weren't pulling their weight in case of enemy fire were they?
=============
What saabsister says, I want to repeat. We have lived with this crap ALL our lives.
This morning I was in a small grocery store talking to a clerk. She was saying they were having a hard time because the men weren't pulling their weight and that many arguments were going on.
This is a fairly new store.
I can relate to this. I was on a committee for my child's graduation and I remember women saying they would rather not have men on their committees if possible. I was put in charge of a project with a male. I knew that I would have problems because I have never worked with a man in a school project who could pull his own weight. They seem to be on said committees for one reason. It looks good to the boss or if large enough is good publicity.
Sure enough, within a week he told me he would be moving to another state after the kid's graduation, but would still be able to help. Ha! He didn't, except to be there for any public exposure that is. And that isn't the only time. I don't have the time to write about all the others.
Do you really think men pull all the weight, and women don't? I think you live in a fantasy world.
We have both sexes who don't pull their end of life's rope. The only difference is you guys get
to design the f--king rope, build it and we get to clean up the mess the threads make. That is the
big difference.
[ edited by aposter on Sep 11, 2002 11:03 AM ]
posted on September 11, 2002 11:07:12 AM new
.....And then there was the other side of the coin. The few and far between women in the military who didn't play the games. Mainly in the Mechanic and Supply fields. The ones who could carry their own weight, and some, yours if they had to. I only wish there were more of them in the military. They didn't care too much for this "equality " crap, too many limitations.
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
posted on September 11, 2002 11:39:33 AM new
>You seen to be implying that women didn't pull their weight, but all men did.
Like I said: crap!
The point was that a man who needed help could not comandeer another man from his job without the supervisor's permission. in theory, a higher enlisted person could ordr a loweer enlisted to go help him, but the practice was to get permission fo the supervisor first. Except for guard duty, no inferior could rank order a higher rank to go do dirty work for them, unless it was a female. Lower ranked men could not order higher ranked females around, but lower ranked females could order men to go do their grunt work for them, as my experience points out, that the women would resort to going over that victim's head in rank and get the highest superviosr to come out and make it clear to you Who was in charge. Now that ought to be clear enough to you, even if you weren't in the millitary.
junquemama, would you please go ask Kenny if He can come out to play?
posted on September 11, 2002 11:56:16 AM newjunquemama, would you please go ask Kenny if He can come out to play?
I ask that of krs in 98 in the dnf,and he didnt answer then either.
I would never call
him kenny,The ones in the past, who did, were either mad at him or jealous.
ps-change of subject noted.
[ edited by junquemama on Sep 11, 2002 11:57 AM ]
[ edited by junquemama on Sep 11, 2002 12:03 PM ]
posted on September 11, 2002 06:10:19 PM new
A ways back Borillar said this: It's like I said: combat ships are not office buildings as the chance of disaster is ever present.
Today is 9-11. It was office buildings that were the site of the disaster.Apparently, disaster is ever present no matter where you are.
I have always done traditional mens work. Women who do mens work have to work twice as hard to prove themselves to the men. I lifted 100lb boxes all day long and worked in a warehouse. I was a machine shop welder and then inspector and the men were always so surprised that I was so mechanical. LOL!
Back on topic.I do not believe we should abolish citizenship. I do think we should abolish giving it so freely and giving it to every baby born to an illegal alien here.Being a citizen does come with some responsibilities.Voting should be mandatory. Civil service should be mandatory [for those that are able] .
My daughter is getting married next week and my son is moving to Oregon at the end of this month so I've been especially busy. Not trying to avoid this thread.
posted on September 12, 2002 02:25:33 AM new
"Voting should be mandatory"
It is in a lot of countries - for example Malawi.
When it IS mandatory it is then used by the government there to legitimize the election of leaders for which the voters have no real alternative. Sort of like here.
posted on September 12, 2002 10:32:17 AM new
I kinda like the idea where everyone is required to fulfill civic duties. Instead of making voting compulsory, I'd like to take up on the Carter-Dole commision's report and to suggest that we change voting from a workday to the the entire weekend, require that employers MUST give at least a day off so that the employee can go vote, and that felons no longer be excluded from voting. We also need voting reform like National Referendums and being able to vote NONE OF THE ABOVE in Presidential elections. We need to come up with modern methods of voting, with touch-screens with verbal feedback; as in, "You have selected the Republican Candidate Jeb Bush as your choice of governor. If this choice is correct, press the red, white, and blue VOTE button. If this is incorrect, press the yellow GO BACK button to make another choice." When the voice is talking, you actually get to see a picture of the politican and both read and HEAR the political party affliation! With Congress and Bush so hot to give away 100 Billion dollars to spenmd on chasing Al-Queda members through the desert, they could spend 1 Billion dollars to install this system in every voting place in the nation.
posted on September 12, 2002 10:54:28 AM new
There is a move in England to have None of the above option on voting ballots. BBC News online took a poll in 2002 and 58% of all age-groups feel that none of the political parties represent their views.
