posted on September 21, 2002 07:07:10 PM newI see nothing in your quotes concerning how our tests compare to the Japanese. The fact remains that our test averages lump virtually all kids together, and Japanese and other countries disaggregate their test results into various subgroups. The comparison of their data to ours is flawed.
"Traditionally, the most common criticism of international studies is that it is unfair to compare our results to other countries because their national scores are based on a highly selective population. While this may have been true in the past, it is simply not valid in the case of TIMSS. Using several different methods of measuring enrollment, the data indicate that the enrollment rate in the United States is closer to the international average than to the desirable upper extreme. Even the theory that higher secondary enrollment rates hurt a country's overall achievement did not hold true. Students in countries with higher enrollment rates tended to score significantly higher on both the math and science general knowledge assessments. Higher secondary enrollment rates are associated with higher levels of performance, rather than the reverse. The range of scores, from high to low, is no greater in the United States than in the higher-scoring countries."
posted on September 21, 2002 08:14:23 PM new
"I am confident that I could do the job."
I have no doubt you are...please let me know when you decide to actually try...I will come watch, and perhaps learn what 25 years in the classroom has not taught me.
bunnicula:
as I said, apples to oranges...this from a school board association report, which is NOT sponsored by political action committees...
"As the poet Tennyson once noted: "a lie which is half a truth is ever the blackest of lies."
For this lie is half true. The half truth is derived from the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS). TIMSS was an international effort to make comparative judgements about school systems in various countries. The problem with this kind of study is that not all countries start children in school at age five; not all countries end high school at twelfth grade; not all countries make all children go to high school; not all countries have a single track school system.
In order to attempt this comparative study, countries were told they had to meet certain standards for comparison, but only five countries actually met all of those standards. Therefore the comparisons, even when valid, must be taken with a grain of salt. In the lower grades, the TIMSS report noted "The elementary and middle school components of TIMSS defined eligible students primarily on the basis of age." This made those scores somewhat comparable, but the so-called "high school" or "12th grade" TIMSS scores never existed.
There simply is no "high school" or "12th grade" comparison in the TIMSS. What the TIMSS actually compared is "Mathematics and Science Achievement in the Final Year of Secondary School," which in some countries is equivalent to our junior college students. For example, in the United States the average age of those tested was 18.1 years. In Iceland it was 21.2 years, and the grades they tested were twelfth through fourteenth. Putting the average age of their students tested in parentheses, grade 14 students were in the tested populations of Austria (19.1), Canada (18.6), and Iceland (21.2), while France (18.8), Germany (19.5), Switzerland (19.8), Italy (18.7), and the Czech Republic (17.8), included grade 13 students. In South Africa they only tested twelfth grade students, but their average age was 20.1 (South Africa, along with Denmark, Germany and Slovenia, also did not follow the student sampling guidelines).
However, unlike the United States, where we demand that everyone graduate from high school, in many countries high school is reserved for the elite, and in many industrialized countries students are tracked into apprenticeships instead of high schools if their grades are lower. For example, the footnote for Denmark explained that they excluded students who completed their formal schooling after grade 9 (presumably these are low scoring students not expected to go to high school). In Denmark the percentage of 25-34 year-olds who have completed "secondary education" is 69%, in the Netherlands it is 70%, in New Zealand 64%, in Australia 57%, in Italy 49%, while in the U.S. it is 87% (according to Table A5.14 in the TIMSS appendix 5). Russia and Cyprus excluded vocational students, the Netherlands excluded apprenticeship students. So comparing our high school students to their "secondary" students is comparing apples to oranges.
Further, if you look at the scores for advanced placement students in Mathematics and Physics, not only do you have the age and grade differences, but the U.S. tested students who were not even in these advance placement classes. Approximately one-fourth of the questions in the Mathematics advanced placement test were on Calculus but the U.S. tested pre-calculus students! Why did they do this: the U.S. defined Advanced Mathematics students as twelfth graders who had taken or were taking a full year of a high school course that included the word "calculus" in the title. They didn't realize this would include courses labeled "pre-calculus." Well, duh.
The truth is that American high school students were not given a fair evaluation by the TIMSS scores. Some have even alleged they were deliberately sandbagged for political reasons (ala a 1992 International Reading evaluation where the U.S. came in 2nd in the world but this report was suppressed).
Unfortunately, American students should be expected to score below most modern industrial nations. Studies have repeatedly demonstrated that poverty depresses test scores, and the "social democratic" policies of most other developed countries have vastly reduced the degree that their children live in poverty. As a consequence, they will not have the very low scorers that are included in U.S. tested populations from destitute inner cities and rural areas. That is one reason our eighth grade scores, where age but not demographics were compared, ranked only average internationally.
posted on September 21, 2002 10:24:22 PM new
bunni, my niece is one-half Japanese and one of my nephews is one-half Japanese. I don't mean "American" Japanese, but real native Japanese. I am familiar with their system of education, culture, language, and most especially how famies and parents act and react to their kid's involvement in school. I've even been to Japan - have you? I've spent many years around the Japanese and I both know their mentality and their social system. We can agree to disagee, but please - don't tell me what I know for facts is not true! While things may have changed for the Japanese school system since the mid-1980's when I was last among them, I'll be happy to admit to any changes that you claim since then. OK? Rote memorization has been a core value for the Japanese for as long as I can remember and kids were not encouraged to become free and independant thinkers, however forward the other aspects of the system may have been.
posted on September 22, 2002 11:29:57 AM new
Now, I have a great idea for teachers who are frustrated with parents.
Instead of testing the children, test the parents! Then, based on the results of that test, the children can be categorized and managed to rise to your level of their expected competency!
posted on September 22, 2002 01:55:40 PM new
Virtually all kids can rise to our expectations for them helen, and most really want to,but they look to their parents first for validation of their efforts, not to report cards....those that succeed most often do it with support, encouragement and help from home. They, and their teachers, can't always do it alone.It is amazing to me that this is such a hard concept for you, you're probably just bored and looking for an argument....If you are, why don't you try volunteering at your local elementary school? Put some of that confidence to use with a 6th or 7th grader who reads on a second grade level, show that spoiled overpaid incompetent crybaby of a teacher a thing or two about learning....
*emoticon omitted*
[ edited by profe51 on Sep 22, 2002 01:58 PM ]
posted on September 22, 2002 02:16:50 PM new
Helen was being facetious, prof, ya know, sarcasm/parady/that sort of thing?
>Virtually all kids can rise to our expectations for them helen, and most really want to,but they look to their parents first for validation of their efforts,
God, that's the virtual truth of the matter. And I've seen so many parents who make every effort to sabotage their kids self-esteme, especially when the kid accomplishes something great in school and the parents don't even bother to give them at least a "So What?" Parents kill these kids, in a manner of speaking. They kill their kid's desires to be accepted, to acheive, to acomplish, to gain self-esteme and a better self image. Oh, sure - there's plenty of parents the other way around, but not as many as the "I don't give sh*t!" types who see school only as a way to get the kids out of their hair for a few hours.
posted on September 22, 2002 02:38:58 PM new
I wondered if she was, but it's a hot button for me these days..tired of beating my brains out, and only getting blamed for failure. The system is broken, but when the classroom door is closed you do whatever you can to see that some real learning happens, not just rote stuff so they can pass exit tests and try to keep up with the Japanese...Your statement is my exact point, in so many ways we have become nothing more than over educated child care providers for those parents you speak of. If that's the case, I want the going rate, 5 bucks an hour per kid...
helen, sorry for being testy...regarding your suggestion, if we test them prior to their being allowed to breed, it will save not only the schools but the penal and welfare systems a bundle!
posted on September 22, 2002 02:41:23 PM new
meant to add, don't know about the rest of this country, but here on the ranch it's time for a Guinness and a cigar!
posted on September 22, 2002 03:23:32 PM new Virtually all kids can rise to our expectations for them helen
That's good, profe51, provided your expectations are not too low.
BTW, Don't presume to think that because I make a remark here that you are being called to respond to what you consider a case of boredom. I seriously doubt, Profe51, that you have any concepts that would be "hard" for me.
posted on September 22, 2002 03:48:04 PM new
> BTW, Don't presume to think that because I make a remark here that you are being called to respond to what you consider a case of boredom. I seriously doubt, Profe51, that you have any concepts that would be "hard" for me.<
I just love it when you talk arrogant to me Helen!
This one obviously is...your professed confidence in your ability to teach children to read in spite of parental support and any other obstacles is pathetically ignorant of the true state of classrooms and families across the country.Wise up.
posted on September 22, 2002 06:06:09 PM new
Good for you, but not for your wallet. Two per week is my limit, usually on Sunday, accompanied by a Cuban Cohiba Rustica on the porch.
posted on October 3, 2002 03:29:54 PM new
until this country's school system changes to teach each child with every learning disability and learning methods KNOWN now to be necessary, which will be evident when there is no longer a need for parents to pay special schools money to teach their children, the school system has no right IMHO to require anything from their students in order to graduate. this country's school system teaches to the left-brain society it supports. the school system is archaic.
FYI, I was a straight A student. One of my kids is also, the other has learning disabilities and needs to be taught in a different method. He didn't graduate. He has a very high I.Q. but couldn't learn a thing in school.
posted on October 3, 2002 08:15:27 PM new
I initially decided not to post to this, but decided to share my week (thus far) with the group, so that everyone can understand how difficult teaching can be, as well as the state of education and parenting.
I teach reading at a rural high school.
For those who believe that teaching is easy, and that anyone with intelligence and focus could do that, here are the incidents above and beyond 'ordinary teaching.'
Aside from managing my five classes, designing individual lesson plans for each student (the classes are arranged according to availibility in schedule, not reading level. Thus, in one class I have students ranging in reading levels from 2 through 7), and the regular activities (attendance, passes, etc., this week, I have had to deal with:
four students with lice
two parents taken to court (truancy, and my attendance records were required)
four students suspended (required me to prepare assignments, deliver them to the office and to the child's home)
two new students just entering the school, who haven't been in ANY school for the last two years (!!)
one student telling me that if I told him what to do once more he would 'do something' to me
one student (observed by me) hurting and killing small animals (required testimony, conversations with counselor, principal, etc.)
absenteeism of between 6-7 per class, which puts those who most desperately need the help even further behind
preparing classes for state-mandated exams (note the difficulty because of absenteeism), as well as the inherent problems caused by their low reading levels
writing discipline referrals for students
And that was all I could think of at this time. There were others.
So, again, feel free. Take my job. Teachers are WOEFULLY underpaid for what we do. We are required to possess AT LEAST a Masters degree, and we have to take credits over and above that in order to keep our certifications.
Oh, yeah. When I started the year, my class had NO BOOKS AT ALL. How was I supposted to teach reading without BOOKS??!! So I bought $3500 worth of them, only to be told that I wouldn't be reimbursed.
posted on October 3, 2002 10:56:59 PM new
plsmith,
From what I read by Skorpio, I think teaching is more of an avocation than a vocation to her.
And speaking of lice, Skorpio. I saw in our local paper today that in a nearby school district a parents were charged with neglect of their children due to being out of school(truancy) so much with lice they won't take the time to get rid of. This will be interesting.
posted on October 4, 2002 09:28:16 AM new
No, eagle, a louse knows no boundries. They don't care who's blood they suck or who's head they live on. They can even get to the teacher.
posted on October 4, 2002 09:51:41 AM new
I remember the "New Math" and think that it was great, the follow-up was weak, but still terrible that it's generally considered a failure.
There are very few mathematical formulae that you have to memorize, understanding the rules is much more valuable.
Spelling does require memorization, as knowing the rules won't get you through english spelling (our language is much too irregular).
