posted on October 4, 2002 10:56:34 PM new
>Borillar, in all honesty, I can't figure out how you segued from my initial remark to your broadbased speculation
Segued, Pat? A non-sequitur beyond your comprehension? Your assumption relies upon there being a valid connection between quote and reply. That you see no direct or indirect correlation between the two is indicative of your astute cognitive abilities. However, your continuing confusion at such a simple drama belies the perceived depths of your grasp of logic. Simply put: you see no connection because there is no connection; nor was one intended. Rather, the point being that your statement in quote was used as a basis for further discussion on the probable effects caused by the actions of the former; such effects are surmised, rather than stated in fact; i.e., an opinion. Again, questions are misinterpreted as a position of fact or stance on a particular issue. This is what has brought you to your erroneous conclusions.
posted on October 4, 2002 11:05:34 PM new
Borillar, here's how it is: I can either gallop down the rabbit hole with you at The Round Table or cavort along a well-known surreal dead-end with Jamie over at TRB. At this juncture -- and I mean this as no insult -- you're the lesser of two weevils.
posted on October 5, 2002 09:28:45 AM new
>I'm assuming this is a follow-up to the "mainstream christian leaders who advocate violence against Muslims thread" Still don't think your there yet bud, unless of course YOU see someone advocating hunting muslims in these statements.
DS, it is your total lack of insight which is fueling your criticism. You are revealing your depth of perception on any given subject matter, which is at a constant teaspoon level. As usual, your reading comprehension falters at the first word of any given sentence. You may continue to criticize in this vein, but realize that it shows the lengths that you will go to reveal your ignorance to the public.
posted on October 5, 2002 10:02:40 AM new
"What really concerns us is the lack of reaction by mainstream religious and political leaders, who say nothing when these bigots voice these attacks."
Could that be because [as of today] the terrorist have all been muslims?
posted on October 5, 2002 10:44:18 AM new
Linda, what would you call a person that would hunt down an abortion doctor and kill him in the name of Christianity?... or gays, blacks, etc?
posted on October 5, 2002 11:17:24 AM new
Hi Kraftdinner - We're not talking about one or two crazies who do something like hunt down an abortion doctor and kill him. I call those people murderers. They may profess to be Christians [I don't even know if they've claimed that or not], but they aren't acting according to Christian doctrine.
What I take from the repeated Christian hate threads Borillar keeps posting...is he's trying to say the Christians are no better than the Muslims. I don't agree. I've stated that the Christians aren't calling for the death of all muslims...or jews...or anyone else for that matter. And, several times I've asked him to prove his statement. So far he hasn't....unless you count something that happened back in biblical times. But when repeatedly challenged to tell us which Christians are threatening to work at destroying our country I get silence.
posted on October 5, 2002 11:44:56 AM new
Hi Linda! Oh so that's what that was all about... I understand now.
I was just talking about radicals Linda. The only things you hear about today are how bad these eastern religions are. They think the same about the U.S. because the U.S. wants to control what they think and believe... just like they want to do with us. I think Borillar is talking about that hypocracy, but I might be wrong.
posted on October 5, 2002 12:07:19 PM new
>What I take from the repeated Christian hate threads Borillar keeps posting...is he's trying to say the Christians are no better than the Muslims.
While that is indeed one message that I'm trying to pass along, it isn't the main one. What I have been saying in so many ways is this bit of logic:
IF our Radical Right-Wing Fundamentalist Christian-influenced/run Government does not represent the views of the non-extremist majority of American Christians, THEN it is possible that Radical Extremist Fundamentalist Islam-influenced/run Governments do not represent the views of their citizens or practitioners of Islam.
Since the odds are that entire nations and whole religions are moderate and view peace and love from their holy books, instead of the violent, hate-filled views as the Radical Extremist Fundamentalists have, then it is both illogical and HATE-SPEECH to blanket-cover an entire nation or religion due to the actions of a few who run/influence their governments. Furthermore, IF we are to judge Islam and Muslims from the actions of their leaders who run or influence their governments, THEN ours is just as every bit as guilty. Those who use one measuring stick for others and a different one for themselves are known as HYPOCRITES and their conclusions and words are nothing more than HATE SPEECH.
>I've stated that the Christians aren't calling for the death of all muslims...or jews...or anyone else for that matter.
Neither are the 99.99% of Muslims around the world. So what's your point?
>And, several times I've asked him to prove his statement. So far . . . I get silence.
Linda, I have refrained to explain what is painfully obvious to most people out of sheer courtesy. Although you have set the ground rules for us to be nasty to one another, it is hard for me to keep up to your wishes in that area all of the time. I had hoped that these threads would provide you and others with fruitful discussions that would make these things become clear. To continue to ask me for proofs of things that will not prove any points worth making is also going to fall on my deaf ears. Consider this post your final explanation from me to you on this subject.
UBB
[ edited by Borillar on Oct 5, 2002 12:08 PM ]
posted on October 5, 2002 12:10:59 PM new
Kraftdinner - The U.S. is not ONE religion. It does not set it's policies/laws/schools around ONE religion. We act [as a nation] out of our political beliefs, not religious beliefs.
To me, it's not the same at all. Here in the US we are free to practice whatever religion we wish....or none at all. No one forces anyone to practice any faith. And more importantly no one gets killed if they choose a their own faith. Few, if any, muslim countries can say that. In most of their countries one will be killed for practicing a different religion.
posted on October 5, 2002 12:16:41 PM new
Oh, "Christians" are just all tuckered out from killing the infidel over the last few centuries....
Killings and Murders by "Christians" in the name of God:
Crusades
Inqusition
Queen Elizabeth's deadly purge of the Catholics from England
Elimination of the Native Americans (those ungodly savages)
Lack of dissapproval by the Vatican for the Holocaust (Heck, as long as they only killed Jews)
Klu Klux Klan(If God thought the black man was equal to the white man, he would have made him white)
These are just the major occurances, feel free to add your own.
But the big question is....
Can the Muslims even match even half the killings and murders that "Christians" have.
I put "Christians" in quotes because Followers of Christianity and "Christians" are not the same thing. Some people believe in Christ and what he stood for, some people USE Christ to judge and condemn others and enrich themseleves.
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
[ edited by mlecher on Oct 5, 2002 12:22 PM ]
posted on October 5, 2002 12:33:20 PM new
Borillar - Linda, I have refrained to explain what is painfully obvious to most people out of sheer courtesy. Should I be thanking you? LOL
It really doesn't matter what you say, Borillar. Facts are facts. You choose not to believe them, that's your right. Doesn't change who has been doing these terrorists acts to our country and who keeps promising us more. And it's not Christians.
Although you have set the ground rules for us to be nasty to one another Oh yes....I forgot your rules...to disagree with anything you state...is to be nasty.
posted on October 5, 2002 12:45:12 PM new
Our government exports its terroism. Remember the school of the Americas (Our Motto: Better Government through Torture, Murder and Intimidation)
The covert operations of CIA and special operations to "destabilized", popular to the people but unfriendly to the US, governments?
You know, maybe it boils down to a simple ad slogan: They want to "Be Like Mike (the USA)"
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
posted on October 5, 2002 12:45:41 PM new
I will state this again. It's my belief that anyone who practices/believes in any religion [or none at all] has the right to do so. I don't think any religion is the only 'right' one. It's all a matter of faith.
What I do see, however, is that in America we have a choice. And there is another religious group that wishes to destroy our country. If it were the Christians that were doing the exact same thing, I would feel exactly the same way. But...it's not.
So call them a peaceful people all you want. Just open your eyes to their actions against our way of life.
[ edited by Linda_K on Oct 5, 2002 12:48 PM ]
posted on October 5, 2002 12:53:13 PM new
It's a faction of a religious group that wants to hurt Americans. Not the whole religion. As for Christians and terrorism I believe Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. He is from just one faction of Christianity .These people are fanatics and there are fanatics in every religion.To my mind these people, Falwell and Robertson and their ilk, have called their followers to arms. They just say it in a round about way but I am certain that the people who listen to them know what they mean. It is only a matter of time till one of the fanatics takes their word and runs with it.
Have you listened to these guys on God TV ?They are whackos.Big time.
posted on October 5, 2002 01:00:22 PM new
And another thing...
Truth is some Christians ARE trying to ruin our country. They are doing so by getting into government and changing the rules about church and state. Our entire way of life is at stake if we become a country run by religious organizations. It is insidious and you can see it happening in other countries where the Muslims are doing the same thing. Like Nigeria. They are going to start stoning women to death for having children out of wedlock. Why? Because the fundamental Muslims have taken over the government and are taking them back to the anchient ways.
THAT is one good reason why we are supposed to have seperation of church and state.
posted on October 5, 2002 01:05:12 PM new
rawbunzel - We had a link posted here before....because someone else said the same thing. McVeigh was not a Christian....he was an atheist.
posted on October 5, 2002 01:05:40 PM new
Hi rawbunzel! That's so true. The evangelists seem to be more for theatrics than spreading the word. According to them, I don't stand a chance to reach heaven. I'm controlled by the devil because of my beliefs, but if I send some money, they will send me holy water or whatever and that will cure me. These people call themselves Christians and there are LOTS of them.
posted on October 5, 2002 01:10:12 PM new
raw - Difference here is that while some believe the Christians are [doing this and that].....
we all have a vote. We aren't ruled by ONE groups religious beliefs.
posted on October 5, 2002 01:29:16 PM new
Hmm. Well I could have sworn McVeigh claimed to be Christian.
No Linda, We aren't run by one group ..YET. Just who is running the government now though? Not the Muslims or the Jews [although the fanatical Muslims think so] it is our own religious right. They have taken away my right to not support religion with my tax dollars. What's next?
So true Krafty! TV envangelism is all about money in their pockets [and coffers] and hate talk depending on who you listen to.They are geared to the elderly and lonely and weak willed. Anyone who is ill. They ask people to send in their last dollar to get a prayer for themselves.Or to "plant a seed" to get more money for themselves...greed to go..greed for a prayer. I thought prayer was free and freely given? Many of these folks are the worst of chritianity and yet they have millions of viewers all over the world.When the poor muslims see these folks begging for money for prayers and sitting in their gilded chairs and opulence what do you suppose they think of "our" version of christianity?
posted on October 6, 2002 09:49:53 PM new
As per the original thread post, I watched 60 Minutes tonight and I was appalled. IT is not that Falwell is any more of a bigot on camera than he's ever been, it's that the subject of the piece. It was about the concerted efforts of the American Christian Fundamentalists to bring about the End Times in order to bring forth the Messiah (for them, the Second coming - for the Jews, it'll be the first coming.) In order to do this, they support the Israeli state, because if Israel falls, then the End Times won't occur. Make no mistake about it, just because they support the State of Israel does not translate to a support of Jews, other than to bring about the End Times. For Jews, the End Times means that two-thirds of them will die in the Apocalypse and the other third will turn to Chirtiainity. That means that they cheerfully see two-thirds of the Jews there as already dead. How nice of them!
But that isn't the biggest problem. Jerry Falwell went out of his way to let the American People know WHO pulls the strings at the White House -- and it isn't Bush! Case-in-point: this last spring when the Israelis were in Hebron with their tanks, Bush put Israel on notice that he wanted them to pull their tanks out. Jerry Falwell heard about this and announced it to his 70 million followers world-wide and an avalanche of over 100,000 protest letters arrived at the White House and Bush was made to Shut Up on the subject and the tanks did not move. Jerry Falwell let 60 Minutes know Who is In-Charge of America!
Let this be a bit of clarity for those of you who still haven't "gotten" it. Jerry Falwell and his minions are not some scant fringe cult. They have many millions of members and followers. Even if only 10 percent of the above quoted 70 million was only 7 million, it still is NOT some fringe cult! And when their leaders spew out hate speech, it is MAINSTREAM. When their clout puts THEIR MAN into he White House and their leaders thereafter call the shots instead of us, only a stupid moron would be able to ignore that fact! It isn't a case of whether or not the government is benign or not, it is the motivations of those who are pulling the strings. Even if you do not believe in the End Times, do you still want our government and military to go about prosecuting these notions on a world-wide scale?
Sheese!
Insanity!
This Puppet government is chasing around the world for the corporate interests, the Oil & Energy interests, and now also the Rabid-Right Christians -- but not for Americans! What good are they - the government, to us anymore? NONE!
posted on October 6, 2002 10:27:09 PM new
I saw that show too Borillar. We're screwed.
The Christians love the jews they say~ but only to convert them or see them die so that they will bring the messiah back for them. How selfish. How stupid. God said that we would not know the time of his coming. These people are fools.They cannot bring about Gods coming.They can bring about the destruction of that which God has created. Doubt he would be too pleased with that. Indeed he has likely packed his bags and headed out hoping to not be associated with the likes of humans.
posted on October 6, 2002 11:43:53 PM new
You are right on about that, raw! These people, these followers believe in a LITTERAL translation of the Bible! It doesn't work that way. And because it does not work that way, what they are trying to accomplish - the death of this planet in a world-wide hoocaust, will NEVER produce the results that they want. Therefore, they will only make this planet barren of life or knock us all back to the stone age.
posted on October 7, 2002 05:55:43 AM new
I saw Sixty Minutes last night too.
I think you are misguided, LindaK. You said: "We aren't ruled by ONE groups religious beliefs."
We have been ruled by Christian beliefs from the beginning of this country. Men taking the Bible literally have tried to keep women at an ancient level, the same as our ancestors.
As a Bible Church in my area says: "We do not accept women as elders because we take the bible literally." The Christian Church has had a tremendous effect right from the signing of the Declaration of (White Male) Independence. I wonder how many Christian groups were behind defeating the Equal Rights Amendment?
I watched more than my usual network TV after 9-11 and I cannot remember a lot of demonstrating against America. I saw one, possibly two demonstrations. Those demonstrations didn’t look that big. Am I wrong? Maybe I was in shock enough that I didn't see multiple countries celebrating. Did Cable cover many countries? I saw the same people demonstrating over and over and a couple women condemning the U.S. and saying they would send their sons to fight against the U.S.
If Falwell is keeping count, 19 more Palestinians were killed on the Gaza strip
(NPR Report)this morning or last night.
[Edited because I hit submit early.]
[ edited by aposter on Oct 7, 2002 06:07 AM ]
posted on October 7, 2002 06:14:20 AM new"I believe that it points up the fact that we need common sense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. Those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench."
George W. Bush
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
George H Bush
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on October 7, 2002 07:58:09 AM new
Falwell only CLAIMS 70 million. Similar when his "Moral Majority" was found to to be a miniscule and pitiful bunch. I doubt he has even more than 150,000. He just lies.....
As for the donations, it is probably a small percentage that comes from individual donors. Most of it is funneled to him by large corporate interests. Their goals are the same, to keep the politics of hate alive and the neo-conservatives in power. It keeps Falwell in power through hate and fear, and for the corporations, hate is profitable.
And why was Bush scared of 100,000 emails. heck, he lost the election by more than that!
.
A Man will spend $2.00 for a $1.00 item he needs.
A Woman will spend $1.00 for a $2.00 item she doesn't need.
[ edited by mlecher on Oct 7, 2002 08:06 AM ]
[ edited by mlecher on Oct 7, 2002 08:06 AM ]
posted on October 7, 2002 11:42:07 AM new
I wish I saw 60 Minutes.... I can imagine how frustrating it must've been to watch.
Organized religion is the false prophet imo. It always leads it's followers astray by necessitating conformation. If we're created as individuals with separate brains, how can everyone agree on what the Bible says, and follow one road? Religion is supposed to be an individual thing. Now it's in groups pitted against each other for which is the most Godly, with the best team winning a special place in heaven.
posted on October 7, 2002 12:31:22 PM new
aposter - You said, "I think you are misguided, LindaK. You said: "We aren't ruled by ONE groups religious beliefs." I'm not seeing how you believe the US is ruled by Christians. There is no one religious group that 'rules' America. What I see is that Christians have a large voting power, just like any other organized group in the US. Say...like organized unions, NAACP, etc. etc. Sure...all have a large [collective] voting power, but none rule the US. Their individual group voting patterns may give them more say than you'd like, but they don't rule the US, IMO.
We have been ruled by Christian beliefs from the beginning of this country. I'm surprised you haven't received any comments on that statement. When it's made by others [like me] most here say it's not true. That our forefathers weren't Christians.
To me, while some share their opinions of how hateful Christians are [appear] to them, and they have that right, I also am seeing their hatred of Christians.
Helen!
[ edited by mlecher on Oct 5, 2002 12:22 PM ]