posted on October 21, 2002 11:02:35 AM new
I totally agree with you donny. Science is not proof of anything either. It's just a ruler to measure our knowledge. I just think the ruler might be round with no limit which could help us to explain what God is. If God is something that can't be explained, ever, then, yes, I think He's playing tricks on us.
posted on October 21, 2002 01:09:29 PM new
>I agree up to that point. But once you win this battle, you can't turn around and try to disprove God with science.
While the existence cannot be proved or disproved with empirical methods, God's Works are being revealed each and every day through Science. While the Bible remains the Revealed Word of God to Man, Science is doing a fair job of writing a How I Did It tell-all novel, by God.
>And further, I disagree that Fundamentalism should be fought.
You're free to have that opinion.
>There are plenty of people who believe in a Fundamentalist view of various religions. Who can say they're wrong?
Everyone. Anyone. All it takes is a bit of common sense. In the Book of Ezekiel, when the angel from God handed him a scroll and said, "Here Take these scrolls and eat them that you may know them." do you suppose Ezekiel asked, "Please pass the Salt & Pepper! Yummy! >chomp!< >chomp< >scarf!< >scarf!<" ? Do you? Well, ask any Fundie and he'll have to say YES, because that is how it is written and only the LITERAL meaning is the truth. They also believe that there are no transnational errors; such as, "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and thousands of other tiny transnational errors. They believe that there are no conflicts, even if you point out the obvious ones to them. They'll look at it, cross their eyes, and blankly state, "There are no conflicts . . . there are no conflicts . . . gurk!"
But we don't mind if they have that point of view, do we? Idiots can believe whatever they wish to believe . . . right? But given the chance, they don't feel that same way about you, Donny. Given the chance, they'd either force you to convert or stone you to death as a heathen. Since they can't go that far (yet), they have buried themselves into politics in order to change our laws. They have gotten themselves appointed to the Supreme Court in order to not get over ruled when their laws go before the court. They invade your school boards because they want the public schools to teach your kids their religious beliefs, no matter what YOU, as the parent, wish for your kids to believe in. They are also in City Councils in order to make sure that local laws or events that allows the city or employers to discriminate against homosexuals or people from other faiths like Islam or Buddhism be persecuted without reprisals. They are also trying to run major corporations so that businesses will not become like Disney and allow health insurance benefits to gay and lesbian couples, or other things against their religious beliefs. They are infiltrating every aspect of yours and my life that affects us either directly or indirectly in order put their agenda first over the common good of society. And you think that these people should not be fought? Are you really that much of a Christian that if one of them kicks you to the ground and then begins pissing on you, you'd lay there and enjoy it?
There are times, Donny, when turning the other cheek is appropriate and then there are times when you have to defend yourself in order to prevent further abuses. If you don't think that their purposeful attack on Americans on all fronts in order to turn our society into the theocracy with their literalist beliefs isn't enough of a reason for you to go to war against them, then what the hell is?
posted on October 21, 2002 01:33:13 PM new
" ">There are plenty of people who believe in a Fundamentalist view of various religions. Who can say they're wrong?"
Everyone. Anyone. All it takes is a bit of common sense."
Religious faith doesn't depend on common sense. As I've said, you can't force reason to conform to religion, and neither can you force religion to conform to reason. The bases for the two are entirely different. We agreed on this when the discussion was involved with keeping religion out of science. To be intellectually honest, it has to work on the flip side as well. The bases for the two are still entirely different.
"There are times, Donny, when turning the other cheek is appropriate and then there are times when you have to defend yourself in order to prevent further abuses. If you don't think that their purposeful attack on Americans on all fronts in order to turn our society into the theocracy with their literalist beliefs isn't enough of a reason for you to go to war against them, then what the hell is?"
It seems to me our system is based on the largest/strongest minority having power. It may come that you or I are nowhere near the mindset of that controlling minority. But if you're going to argue for the rightness of the system, even though it's a hard thing to swallow, there it is.
Edited to add this:
"Are you really that much of a Christian that if one of them kicks you to the ground and then begins pissing on you, you'd lay there and enjoy it?"
I'm not any kind of Christian, or a believer in God. If you're reading it that way, you're putting the wrong slant on it.
posted on October 21, 2002 02:12:34 PM new
> As I've said, you can't force reason to conform to religion, and neither can you force religion to conform to reason. The bases for the two are entirely different.
If you mean Christianity, then you are correct. But that is not the case with all religions in the world.
> It seems to me our system is based on the largest/strongest minority having power. It may come that you or I are nowhere near the mindset of that controlling minority. But if you're going to argue for the rightness of the system, even though it's a hard thing to swallow, there it is.
Donny, the only thing that's hard to swallow is your point, whatever it is. If you mean that our system currently allows the majority rule or the strongest minority rule, then you are correct, although it was not intended that way (majority rule only).
> I'm not any kind of Christian, or a believer in God. If you're reading it that way, you're putting the wrong slant on it.
That comes from trying to understand your stated position, " And further, I disagree that Fundamentalism should be fought." If you have some other adequate explanation for this viewpoint than the one that I suggested, please share!
posted on October 21, 2002 02:24:14 PM new
" "I'm not any kind of Christian, or a believer in God. If you're reading it that way, you're putting the wrong slant on it."
That comes from trying to understand your stated position, " And further, I disagree that Fundamentalism should be fought." If you have some other adequate explanation for this viewpoint than the one that I suggested, please share!"
I believe in freedom of religion. That doesn't mean I personally subscribe to any religious beliefs, it means I acknowledge the rights of others to have religious beliefs that I personally don't believe in.
posted on October 21, 2002 03:16:22 PM new
>I believe in freedom of religion. That doesn't mean I personally subscribe to any religious beliefs, it means I acknowledge the rights of others to have religious beliefs that I personally don't believe in.
Good! I am delighted to hear that! Now, tell me something else: is this belief of yours a solid one or do you dismiss it lightly when convenient?
posted on October 21, 2002 03:43:38 PM new
I believe it's pretty solid, more solid, at least, than yours. You were the one who was advocating a grass-roots movement to remove Fundamentalist Christian churches, in another thread, weren't you?
Freedom of religion was a pretty easy thing to profess a belief in, back in the day when we could expect that when we quoted Nietzche's famous line about God, most people would either agree, or not argue, when religious practices were, perhaps, more discreet and, to our mind, more tasteful. That kind of religious belief was easy to allow people the freedom to have.
Now comes a swing towards religion that's more visible, louder, harsher. We don't like it. We say it's ignorant, or peculiar, it's strange. It doesn't suit us. We're much too sophisticated for this. It's not refined enough for our tastes.
But to hold to a belief in freedom of religion means even to the practices of those religions which we find... too coarse. So perhaps some people do believe that someone literally ate a scroll from God. This is what they're free to believe.
For an atheist to advocate the destruction of Fundamentalist churches is no different from a Fundamentalists' advocation of the destruction of atheism, or one religion's quest to stamp out inifidels.
posted on October 21, 2002 04:42:14 PM new" Now, tell me something else: is this belief of yours a solid one or do you dismiss it lightly when convenient?"
I believe it's pretty solid, more solid, at least, than yours.
Good! Is it OK for you to have your belief that you've stated, but it is also OK for them to not allow you the very same courtesy in return?
posted on October 21, 2002 04:59:57 PM new
When someone believes that others are entitled to freedom of religion, it's not conditional on whether their religion is one we find silly, or whether they recognize a reciprocal right. I'd like them to recognize a reciprocal right, but my belief stands, regardless.
posted on October 21, 2002 05:35:27 PM new"Is it OK for you to have your belief that you've stated, but it is also OK for them to not allow you the very same courtesy in return?"
it's not conditional on whether their religion is one we find silly, or whether they recognize a reciprocal right.
Fair enough, Donny. But let's get more to the point, shall we? The question is, "at what point do your ideals still stand as they are?" Ideals are great - right up to the point where others trample it down. In our case with the Fundamentalists, not only are they trying to brainwash your kids in school to their beliefs, but they have announced plans that go much, much further than that. While most people know about the Fundamentalist's leaders stated desires in both books, magazine articles, and TV news spots that they have a political agenda, one that is designed to turn this nation into a Theocracy, to bring about Biblical Law, to punish sinners by stoning to death, and all of those joyful things that we saw the Taliban in Afghanistan and the regime in Iran celebrate.
Donny, it is more than just worrying that you and your progeny will be left alone to have your high ideals or not; whether your children and grandchildren will be forced to convert to Fundamentalism or face serious, life-threatening consequences. NO. That's an old worry. Now they have announced their Final Plan for the World!
I'm not sure if you read the previous thread, Donny, where we talked about the recent announcement of the Fundamentalists to use their political clout to bring about the End Times. In plain English, it means that they are doing everything that they can to inspire a nuclear holocaust in the middle-east that will, hopefully, lead to a world-wide nuclear holocaust! And the reason? They want to send a Summons to God.
Wacky? Weird? Unworkable? Donny, they control the Republican Party and, as in a recent 60 minutes news report two weeks ago, they explained how they control the White House as well. They are deep into Israel, trying to fulfill different steps in the Revelation prophecies, in order to bring about the Final End of the world. And are they succeeding? Yes! One way is by trying to get an Arab nation to launch a weapon of mass destruction at Israel; who, in turn, would retaliate in kind, and then - BOOM! It expands world-wide, killing BILLIONS of people, making this planet uninhabitable. And why would they do such a thing? Because they believe that they will all be saved and the rest of us will die in the wars, the nuclear fallout, the knife in the gut!
Now. Now that you know this, think about current events. WHO is most likely to launch a weapon of mass destruction at Israel? Give up? It's an Arab state to the North of Israel. No? Still can't see the connection? Does Iraq conjure up any picture to you? Now, connect the dots . . . fundamentalists . . . politics . . . Bush . . . Iraq . . . Israel . . . Nuclear War . . .
Donny. When nuclear war falls on you, killing your kids and everyone you love, no doubt your ideals will be a great comfort to you. In the meantime, some of us will have to try to fight to protect our rights to have those cheery ideals which you so blithely enjoy.
posted on October 21, 2002 06:02:46 PM new
Let's revisit Einstein's quote about WWIV. He wasn't warning us about Fundamentalists, but about Man in general. That's all it takes to destroy the world, that people are able to.
Am I going to froth at the mouth about Fundamentalists? No. They're only the great evil that will bring about the end of the world insofar as they are Man. Man is the great evil that will bring about the end of the world, if it comes.
posted on October 21, 2002 07:10:34 PM new
Donny, you're being especially dense here. It's no that the Fundamentalists are going to get their way. Although they do have great influence in foreign policy and politics in this country, there are other interests as well. I doubt that Bush is after Iraq solely to please the Fundies. He has his Daddy in mind and Big Oil as well as a desire for Conquest and Glory. But the problem is that these Fundies ARE influencing foreign policy and national policy; such policies are meant only to control us and to bring about the destruction of all life on this earth. If you can't see any reason to stand up to them and to fight them under those conditions, Donny, you're in serious need of medical help! This is simply not a case of respect for one another's religious beliefs -- it is way, way far beyond that. Even though they won't succeed at getting a nuclear war going, they will be responsible for the deaths of many, many people and the squandering of the national resources and the devastation of our economy. Ever wonder WHY Bush and the Republicans haven't lifted a finger to help this economy? What point is there to get this economy going when God is going to come here and take them all away to Paradise and the rest of us will all to Hell? Insanity? Hell yes! But this is what we're up against. That, and every Right and Ideal that you've come to enjoy in life is also on the line and IT IS JUST DAYS AWAY! It's not some far off happening years from now, if ever: Donny, it's right on the verge and we're all about to find out IF we'll see a Nuclear War within the next few days or weeks! Jesus, Donny, come to your senses!
posted on October 21, 2002 09:35:36 PM newBut if you're going to argue for the rightness of the system, even though it's a hard thing to swallow, there it is.
and
I believe in freedom of religion. That doesn't mean I personally subscribe to any religious beliefs, it means I acknowledge the rights of others to have religious beliefs that I personally don't believe in.
VERY well stated. Thank you Donny.
[ edited by Linda_K on Oct 21, 2002 09:43 PM ]
