posted on December 16, 2002 04:45:05 PM new
kraftdinner - The norm for me when I was growing up was Viet Nam, Kent State Yes, and a lot of those same people, who have continued to smoke MJ until now have lost brain cells by doing just that. They're the homeless, the addicts, the one's who are living on welfare because they can no longer care for themselves.
your generation had different ideals in your formative years. All that has changed. LOL, thanks. No, I disagree it's NOT a generational issue. There are many young people who think the same way I do.
Now that drugs have become part of society, how are we supposed to deal with them? Drugs have always been a part of society. That hasn't changed. The acceptance of their use has become more popular. We have become a more permissive society than we were and it hasn't always improved issues.
Could any of the money used to buy drugs go to support things like terrorism? If so, wouldn't it be better if that money was collected by the government to be used to help the helplessly addicted? Help the helplessly addicted by legalizing drugs so that more can join that same group? I don't think so.
Not addressing the issue is like sticking your head in the sand while billions of North American drug dollars head to South America & the Middle East. Who's not addressing the issue? Drug legalization is voted on all the time. Three different initiatives were on state ballots just this past November. All were voted down. Think all the voters were only from my generation? I don't.
Drugs aren't going to go away Linda... what else can we do. Well I certainly don't think by legalizing them they're going to go away. We just keep up the good fight...the best we can. And along with doing that we point out to our young people what has happened to those who made the decision that being drugged up all their life is the way they wanted to go. You know, serve as a bad example.
[ edited by Linda_K on Dec 16, 2002 04:48 PM ]
posted on December 16, 2002 05:44:48 PM new
My question is....
Who is going to pay for all the social and health programs that are going to be required to support those addicted and/or those who"just want to use it and can't get a job because of drug use"?
Legalize it, go ahead, but do not make me pay to get you out of the gutter.
.................................................
We call them our heroes...but we pay them like chumps
posted on December 16, 2002 06:11:14 PM new
I have three children. 18, 17 and 15. I asked them if they were to try, would it be easier to buy marijuana, cigarettes, or beer. All said marijuana because nobody would card them.. seems like the laws work the wrong way... Making it legal would stop some kids from getting it. and i'd rather have my kid smoke a joint than srink a beer. (well, i'd rather neither, but pot is far less dangerous than beer)
posted on December 16, 2002 06:26:59 PM new
The only way to deal with this drug problem, IMO, are two different approaches. You choose which one you think works better:
1) The "Senisble" Approach. With a combination of intense education, peer pressure, and parental participation, young people learn not to do drugs, nor does doing drugs become "cool". Instead, drug users are looked down upon as being loosers and common opinion is that the person's priority is to go seek help for their problems.
2) The Chinese Solution. In the post I made above about the opinum problem in China and how it was solved, this is how we get everyone to stop illegal drug use: we do what the Communist Chinese had to do, and that was to make it a summary executeable offence to sell, use, or handle illegal drugs in the slightest. Show it on national TV, the thousands of drug sellers and users getting their brains blown out as they kneel before the cameras to die for the education of the masses.
In my honest opinion, I htink that only these two approaches will work. All of the rest of the suggestions on how this can work, in my opinion, are baseless nonsense.
posted on December 16, 2002 06:27:15 PM new
kyms - I disagree, the MJ from the 60's wasn't as strong as the MJ of today is. There is much that can be learned by reading this site, should you be interested.
"How does marijuana use
affect school, work,
and social life?"
Students who smoke marijuana get lower grades and are less likely to graduate from high school, compared with their nonsmoking peers.60,61,62,63 In one study, researchers compared marijuana smoking and nonsmoking 12th-graders' scores on standardized tests of verbal and mathematical skills. Although all of the students had scored equally well in 4th grade, the smokers' scores were significantly lower in 12th grade than the nonsmokers' scores were.64
Workers who smoke marijuana are more likely than their coworkers to have problems on the job.
A study of municipal workers found that workers who used marijuana were more likely to have negative attitudes toward their performance at work.65 They reported more frequent absences, tardiness, accidents, workers' compensation claims, and job turnover than did workers who had not used marijuana.
They also were more likely to be drunk or use drugs at work, report to work with a hangover, and miss work because of a hangover.
Depression66, anxiety67,68, and personality disturbances69 are all associated with marijuana use.
Research clearly demonstrates that marijuana use has the potential to cause problems in daily life or make a person's existing problems worse.
Because marijuana compromises the ability to learn and remember information, the more a person uses marijuana the more he or she is likely to fall behind in accumulating intellectual, job, or social skills. Moreover, research has shown that marijuana's adverse impact on memory and learning can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off.70,71
For example, a study of 129 college students found that among heavy users of marijuana, those who smoked the drug at least 27 of the preceding 30 days, critical skills related to attention, memory, and learning were significantly impaired, even after they had not used the drug for at least 24 hours.72 The heavy marijuana users in the study had more trouble sustaining and shifting their attention and in registering, organizing, and using information than did the study participants who had used marijuana no more than 3 of the previous 30 days. As a result, someone who smokes marijuana once daily may be functioning at a reduced intellectual level all of the time.
More recently, the same researchers showed that a group of long-term heavy marijuana users' ability to recall words from a list remained impaired for between 1 week and 4 weeks of abstinence.73 An implication of this finding is that if a marijuana smoker quits, even after long-term heavy use, some important abilities will be recovered after a month.
Another study produced additional evidence that marijuana's effects on the brain can cause cumulative deterioration of critical life skills in the long run. Researchers gave students a battery of tests measuring problem-solving and emotional skills in 8th grade and again in 12th grade.74 The results showed that the students who were already drinking alcohol plus smoking marijuana in 8th grade started off slightly behind their peers but that the distance separating them grew significantly by their senior year in high school.
The analysis linked marijuana use, independently of alcohol use, to reduced capacity for self-reinforcement, a group of psychological skills that enable individuals to maintain confidence and persevere in the pursuit of goals.
posted on December 16, 2002 06:36:23 PM new
Borillar - I said, "But the statement that you were addressing.
Well...I'm not sure why you felt freer to call me naive when I was disagreeing with her than to address her statement if you felt that way.
Are you missing that I'm against the legalization of drugs? I don't believe that theft will decline if drugs were cheaper or legal.
posted on December 16, 2002 07:04:20 PM new
If pot were legalized, the feds and cops would lose out on a ton of money. The drug dealers take all the risks. Then the cops come, bust the dealers, and seize the dealers' assets. It's as plain as the nose on your face.
Of course, that's not counting all the payoff money dealers give to cops in exchange for protection, etc. Pot laws are a cash cow for law enforcement.
posted on December 16, 2002 07:25:35 PM new
Linda, your views mirror the propaganda-fed illogic of the 1950s. Social ills are not caused by marijuana use, etc. Drug use hasn't destroyed our cities. Poverty, racism, unemployment, are the root of our cities' ills. Ask any black man and he will tell you that crack is a tool used by the federal government to oppress blacks.
Legalize it, go ahead, but do not make me pay to get you out of the gutter.
ML, Any idea how much you're paying to keep pot smokers in prison?
There is no doubt that pot is safer than alcohol. And you can bet it WILL be legalized as soon as the government figures out how to tax something that can be grown in your back yard.
posted on December 16, 2002 07:36:56 PM new
twinsoft - Anyone can see the effects drugs has on our present society. This isn't something from the long ago past.
Drug use hasn't destroyed our cities. Poverty, racism, unemployment, are the root of our cities' ills. Ask any black man and he will tell you that crack is a tool used by the federal government to oppress blacks.
Our country has experience much worse poverty, racism and unemployment in our past history than we are now, and our drug problem has only gotten worse. As for ask any black man....what a joke. Any black man that has worked hard to make his way out of the slums would not be supporting drug use as a way to get out. He'd know how drugs have destroyed any chance some have of pulling themselves out of that life style. Look at ANY successful black man or woman....they didn't get where they are by being drug users.
posted on December 16, 2002 07:51:56 PM new
Linda, what can I say except that I disagree 100%. Obviously neither of us will agree on this topic. What you see as a cause is really only one symptom of a far greater ill.
There are plenty of successful people, both white and black, who use recreational drugs, and live perfectly normal lives. What is the point in criminalizing a large part of our population? I dunno. Follow the money.
Most pot users eventually discontinue on their own. Interestingly, the only drug from which withdrawal may be fatal is alcohol.
posted on December 16, 2002 08:09:11 PM new
twinsoft - Agreed we will NEVER agree. And that's okay...that's life.
But I do have one last comment to make to you There are plenty of successful people, both white and black, who use recreational drugs, and live perfectly normal lives. What is the point in criminalizing a large part of our population? I dunno. Follow the money.
And that is maybe someday you'll have the opportunity to visit one of the many drug rehab units [as a visitor or support person]. There you will find it filled with your successful people who THOUGHT they could use drugs recreationally but somehow their addiction got away from them. They lost all the things they thought were so important to them. Their jobs, their businesses, their money, their posessions, etc. EVERYTHING. And they come to realize that their love of the drug was more important than anything in their lives.
posted on December 16, 2002 08:57:24 PM new
I distinguish between casual pot use and heavy use of "hard" drugs. Those who believe pot is a "gateway" don't draw the line. Pot=Heroin=Murder, just like in Reefer Madness of the 1930s. That supposed aspect of drug culture is pure propaganda.
Most (not all, but most) of the problems associated with drug use are a direct result of oppressive laws, rather than the drugs themselves.
Pharmacologically, alcohol is much more harmful than pot, or even heroin.
posted on December 16, 2002 08:59:59 PM new
Linda, the dying/dead brain cell issue is from a flawed 70's rat study in which rats were fed a non-stop diet of cannabis. In fact, mj has shown to have beneficial effects for people with various neurological disorders, as well as helping to control the side effects from weening off heroin, cocaine, alcohol, etc.
I didn't mean you're an oldie Linda! In generational, I meant that the concept of 'drugs' isn't as shocking to me to discuss openly as it would be to, let's say, my parents because I grew up surrounded by that lifestyle. Drugs are part of our lives, now so more than ever. Not just illegal drugs Linda, but legal ones as well. Like, if you had a toothache, would you feel more comfortable taking a doctor prescribed morphine tablet (for instance) or smoking a joint to relieve pain? Keep in mind the morphine tablet is just a neat compact package of the same drug a dealer would sell you but legal under the right circumstances. My parents would have chosen the tablet hands down just because the mj was illegal. Isn't that silly?
As far as more joining in if drugs became legal, you could be right. It would have to be a very controlled distribution. And just so you know, I'm only talking about pot. I think all hard drugs are bad for people if used chronically. I've never seen a hard drug user become a better person until they got off drugs, but I've seen some troubled people that have used pot to get them through some rough times and they're fine.
posted on December 17, 2002 07:17:32 AM new
>Interestingly, the only drug from which withdrawal may be fatal is alcohol.
Twinsoft, I am not asking for "proof" of this comment, but I would be interested to know what you are referring to. What have you heard or read on that? That's something I've never heard of before and I am quite skeptical. Could you please elaborate a bit?
posted on December 17, 2002 07:40:16 AM new
That's true, Borillar. When a family member had a problem with alcoholism, I was told that by a registered nurse.
Physically, alcohol is more damaging than heroin or any other drug that I can think of right now.
posted on December 17, 2002 07:43:55 AM new
Helen, I am the ONLY member of my extended family that is not a full-blown alchoholic, thank God! Every adult on my father's side is total and either drinks or is on the wagon. I seldom drink and when I do, I do it modestly, because I understand the dangers.
But one of the dangers that I've never heard of is that withdrawing from alchohol is fatal.
>Interestingly, the only drug from which withdrawal may be fatal is alcohol.
That's how that sentance reads, doesn't it? I've never heard of anyone dying because they stopped drinking alchohol! Have you?
posted on December 17, 2002 08:09:13 AM new
I found this which confirms Twinsoft's statement. This is the case for a very heavy drinker, of course.
"However, within six to 48 hours after not drinking, hallucinations may develop. These usually are visual hallucinations but they can also involve sounds and smells. They can last for a few hours up to weeks at a time.
Also within this time frame after quitting, convulsions or seizures can occur, which is the point at which alcohol withdrawal can become dangerous, if not medically treated. The symptoms may progress to delirium tremens (DT's) after three to five days without alcohol. The symptoms of DT's include profound confusion, disorientation, hallucinations, hyperactivity, and extreme cardiovascular disturbances.
Once DT's begin, there is no known medical treatment to stop them. Grand mal seizures, heart attacks and stroke can occur during the DT's, all of which can be fatal.
posted on December 17, 2002 09:23:42 AM new
Thanks for that, Helen. I had no idea where to even begin to look for the info. You don't have to be a hard drinker to become an alchoholic if your genetics predispose you towards it, which is our case. In our family, I've seldom seen anyone drunk to the point of falling down and never one to passing out standing up. So I've never had to deal with the level of alchoholism that you've so kindly pasted there.
posted on December 17, 2002 09:26:10 AM new
>With dope there is hope, booze you lose!
I disagree with that, if we're talking about moderation. With moderation, meaning drinking a moderate amount, I'd much rather relax after a hard day with a gentle warm glow about me and the day's cares lifting off of my shoulders than to fog up my brain and judgement with drugs. But that's probably just me.
posted on December 17, 2002 09:48:13 AM new
It should be evident that alcohol and drugs are one in the same, as far as being addictive and that they are both used to alter consciousness. One of the most successful criminal enterprises in our country's history was allowed to flourish because of prohibition. Now that it is legal to buy freely you don't have alcoholics running the streets robbing and killing to buy a bottle of ripple.
posted on December 17, 2002 10:09:27 AM new
Kraftdinner - The url I posted isn't old information from the 70's. The research findings are very recent.
Speaks to the many negatives that occur to the brain, lungs, immune system, etc. on and on. You and I discussed this before; the issue of cigarettes vs. MJ. Says MJ does more damage and can cause more cancers because it's inhaled and held longer than cigarette smoke is. [Not that either one is good for us.]
Even speaks to the issue of using MJ for medical purposes. Sounds to me like they're saying for the good it does, it causes more negative side affects.
Taking any mind-altering substance is not good for any of us....no matter the source. Prescription pills can do just as much damage, no arguing that issue....with the exception that they are often NEEDED...while MJ is not.
[ edited by Linda_K on Dec 17, 2002 10:13 AM ]
posted on December 17, 2002 10:18:24 AM new
quote...
"Taking any mind-altering substance is not good for any of us....no matter the source. Prescription pills can do just as much damage, no arguing that issue....with the exception that they are often NEEDED...while MJ is not.
That's another narrow minded and wrong view, Linda.
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Dec 17, 2002 10:22 AM ]
posted on December 17, 2002 12:29:48 PM new
I will agree 100% that marijuana is as bad as cigarettes when inhaled. You can and probably will get cancer using either.
Personally I like brownies. Same effect, no lung damage.
Can't afford it anymore, but I'd still be baking brownies if I could... No damage comes from eating the plant. Just too much money to afford. Maybe I'll take a trip to canada next year..
