posted on December 17, 2002 11:34:27 AM new
Linda,
Just a suggestion...
When you take comments out of context, then italicize those comments with no space between your writing and the italicized out of context quote it is confusing.
A separation between the quote and your reply will help to clarify your meaning.
posted on December 17, 2002 11:48:59 AM new
>Bunnicula's a big girl [well...she's really kinda short] and can defend her own words.
LOL! Right! You come in here, concern yourself into a conversation that didn't include you, make some insults to me,then you don't defend your own words -- and you EVEN ACCUSE ME OF INSULTING SOMEONE HERE! ala "Borillar - I'm not like you, I don't call people STUPID just because they hold a different opinion that I do."
You're so full of it, Linda. Don't ever cry about how mean others are to you -- you've proved that you ask for it!
posted on December 17, 2002 12:15:45 PM newBunni, you obviously want to stick to your opinion, your support of this man, no matter how much injustice that it causes the victims of this man or the past injustices caused by him. That speaks pages about you.
What is amusing about this statement is that I never said I supported Lott or any views he holds or held. Speaking of "pages," though, you might want to think about what your statements (that I was replying to) say about you. I mean, really...because Lott didn't want to accept Clinton's apology, it's only fair that no one accept his now? How kindergarten can you get? And I say this as a Clinton supporter...
LOL! Right! You come in here, concern yourself into a conversation that didn't include you
There is no such thing as a private conversation when posting to boards such as this. Everyone is free to jump into any conversation they wish to, including Linda & anyone else that doesn't agree with a stated POV.
Linda: am NOT short....
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on December 17, 2002 01:33:43 PM new
LOL Bunnicula - Well...you certainly looked short in that picture with you standing next to SFM. Okay...so you're not short
Borillar - I do have every right to post to anything, and any where, I choose to, just like we all do. You trying to censure me? lol I didn't insult you. I stated a fact. You have called many on these threads stupid, ignorant, uneducated when they have disagreed with you. You seem to forget how many have told you that they don't appreciate you doing so, and that's your right...but don't say it hasn't happened many times. That wouldn't be truthful. And I didn't defend my words? I sure did. I said that you were making a statement that wasn't true.
Between the end of Reconstruction (mid-1870s) and World War II, there were some 3,500 documented incidents of lynching and mob violence against African Americans, most of them in the South. The victims, mostly men, were not only hung, but often also tortured, their bodies displayed publicly and/or dismembered for grisly souvenirs. Sometimes these men had been convicted of a crime, sometimes only accused, and sometimes even acquitted, but the real point was to terrorize the communities in which African Americans lived. Although the participants in the mob rarely hid their identities, few were ever arrested, let alone punished for their crimes; according to police reports, grand jury investigations, and newspaper accounts, the African American victims met their fates “at the hands of parties unknown.”
posted on December 17, 2002 02:39:45 PM new
I agree with Linda K and her comment about all these free speech people whining all the time about being unable to say anything and then crying for Trent Lott to resign.
Look folks, you may be a bunch of left wingers, but can you not agree that even if you don't like Lott he has the right to say what he pleases?
He has the right to say it and you have the right not to listen to it. I don't agree with the man either, but I would defend his right to say it.
posted on December 17, 2002 03:10:56 PM new
Lott said what he said to make a 100 year old man happy but has since dug a hole and keeps digging deeper.
He can say what he wants but he also has to pay the consequences and there is no doubt in my mind that he will step down as Republicans have a habit of doing when they harm their party.
posted on December 17, 2002 03:16:03 PM newReamond - You think they're aren't people who were also segregationists on the democratic side of the aisle? There are. Maybe that's where these voters will go if they can't support Lott
Linda- the Democrats that were segregationists left the Democratic party and became Republicans. This is well documented by the political scientists. The south was firmly Democratic as a result of Lincoln being a Republican. When the Democrats instituted voting rights and carried out the desegregation of the schools, the "solid Democratic South" started towards the Republican party.
It is now catching up to the Republicans. The party of Lincoln has David Duke racists. The other problem with their "big tent" is that Republicans used to be for small government and individual rights and opposed to "Federalism". But the tent is full of fundementalist "christians" which want Federal intervention for things like abortion rights, anti-gay agendas, prayer in schools, and all government agencies, etc.. These positions are diametrically opposed to individual rights and anti-Federalism.
It shouldn't be much longer before the party implodes. The big tent is folding. It functions well as a minority party not in power, but as soon as it is in power the opposing factions want their due and the fractures widen.
posted on December 17, 2002 04:47:45 PM new
Help Dump Lott And Reaffirm American Values Of Justice And Equality
Republican Senators have called a meeting for January 6 to determine Trent Lott's fate. We need to build as much pressure as we can before then to make sure they don't elect this man Majority Leader. That is why we want to run the following full page ad in the New York Times calling for his ouster. We think it is a powerful ad, but we need your help to pay for printing it.
posted on December 17, 2002 06:30:26 PM new
>Borillar - I do have every right to post to anything, and any where, I choose to, just like we all do. You trying to censure me? lol I didn't insult you. I stated a fact.
You didn't state a fact, you made an accusation. I asked you to explain that accusation. You answered that with more accusations and yes - insults. Tell me exactly whose opinion, that is, name the AW member whose opinion I called "stupid"? I called some people's opinions ignorant, uneducated and also, uninformed - all of which were true and only a child would interpret those as insults, as adults are supposed to know the meanings of words. I also let you know that you should not feel as though you have any right to cry on here in the future aboiut how mean others are to you when you act this way -- you encourage that sort of behavior. I only pointed out the obvious.
Also obvious, is that your anile comments that you can't back up aren't appreciated, as any jackass could do the same. It doesn't take talent, it only takes desire.
posted on December 17, 2002 06:37:34 PM new
>He has the right to say it and you have the right not to listen to it. I don't agree with the man either, but I would defend his right to say it.
Thanks for joining us, quatermass. While you are certainly entitled to whatever opinion that you care to choose to post in here, you will have to expect it to be examoned and picked apart.
In this case, the man has every right to say anything that he pleases and that's American -- even when he pushes to limit your right to do the same, 'cause that's his right too! Right? He can plug you in your backside, but that's ok with you? Hmm.
He's also a public figure and in an office of public confidence. As such, he does not enjoy the liberties that the common person does. Note that when Clinton took such a liberty, Lott pushed the case all the way through to an Impeachment trial! Such are the facts of life in public office.
Therefore, trent can say what he wants and he can loose his office of public trust because of it. That's fair. then he can go on and be the loudest bigot in the world, because he won't have any political power left to enforce his racist agenda.
posted on December 17, 2002 07:13:49 PM new
The question before Republicans is not whether Lott has a right to speak his mind (bigoted as it may be), but whether he can effectively lead the Republican party. The Democrats won't hesitate to turn this into a racial, "us vs. them" issue. Repubs can't afford the liability.
Interesting this comes at the same time as Clarence Thomas' remarks on cross burning. Even Bush won't touch this one. Lott is out.
posted on December 17, 2002 07:23:59 PM new
Nicely summed up, twinsoft.
But what get sme is that Lott has been making racist remarks in office for years! Why is it only now that he comes under fire for it? I think that it may have to do with him about to obtain the extremely powerful position of Senate Majority Leader. But I also have my doubts there as well. There is something that we're not seeing going on behind the scenes. The Bush camp and the Lott camp have always been cordial adversaries. Hmm..
posted on December 17, 2002 07:39:12 PM new
I wonder about that too. This article in the S.J. Mercury suggests that Republicans want to court the black vote.
posted on December 17, 2002 09:31:19 PM new
Every party courts every vote of course, but perhaps the younger generations of black voters, have enjoyed successes which could bring them closer to traditional conservative ideas. Equality is more a reality than ever before. Though the struggle is not finished and may never be there is a much greater opportunity to change the characteristically democratic voting patterns of black Americans.
In such an environment no party can afford a leader who is racist. Savvy political analysts within the republican party must know that, but isn't the party leader in the senate mostly determined by seniority? If it is then maybe lott's public indecency seems as a Godsend to them and they will be able to get rid of him or let him go without having to suffer a battle.
For those, now two, dolts who keep finding an inconsistency in a free speech proponent criticizing lott's having spoken, wake up. It's not about free speech at all. It's about a powerful representative of the country - the incoming majority leader of the U.S. Senate, a person with immense sway over the decisions and activities of the senate and thus the country, a person who's position places him or her into the order of replacement for the office of President of the United States of America making public pronouncement of his racist preferences and his bigoted beliefs. Is that the image that you would have an elected official present to the world? Maybe it is, I don't know.
posted on December 17, 2002 10:03:02 PM new
I just want to chime in here one more time about this. Conservatism has been hijacked by religious bigots, racists of every stripe, and has become the haven of damned Nazis! Conservatives DO NOT do the things that the Republican Party is doing! When you think of real Conservatives, think of American Patriots who believe in government getting off the backs of the ordinary citizen; that this government was formed FOR people, not solely for the Rich and elite and the large corporations!
I'm damned tired of the Republican calling themselves Conservatives when they really are nothing more than a bunch of religious bigots, racists, and damned Nazis! It's time that REAL Conservatives stand up and STOP this slandering of our good name!
Being a Conservative doesn't mean "Old Time Values", it means Traditional Values; that is, those things that make men and women proud to be who they are, that they can stand tall with dignity, that being Christian means following the teachings of Jesus, not this crap of being mean to everyone is in a worse off position than yourself! "If a man stole your hat, what would you do?" Jesus was asked. Jesus replied, "I'd give him my cloak." THAT's Compassionate Conservativism and it always was!
This looking down your nose at the poor unfortunates in life and sneering at them is the Republican Way, not the Conservative Way! "Judge not and Ye shall not be judged." Each Man and Woman should be free to find their own destiny, obey the laws and live by Fair Play. When was the last time that any Republican could make that claim, eh? You see what I mean?
And I'll tell you something more: being a Conservative means OPPOSING the nonsense Bush is doing, that the GOP is doing, that our entire government is doing! At this rate, the only way to live will be to how best cheat each other; because that's what they are acting by and preaching at us. If you have any sense of decency, then pull yourself away from them and live a Clean life, one free from the snobby Republicans and the god-awful Democrats! Do what it is to be Proud to be a Conservative - not ASHAMED!
"The rhetoric sounds wonderful, but it is disingenuous to paint the Republican Party as amenable to African-Americans when the evidence is stacked against it."
Confused by bigots roaming both political parties? Confused by the history of bigorty in the Democratic party, only to learn that it has its home in the Republican party? Try taking the five minutes to read this simple article and give yourself a background on where things stand with the two politcal parties.
edited to fix busted URL. Thanks Helen!!
[ edited by Borillar on Dec 18, 2002 10:43 AM ]
posted on December 18, 2002 07:25:22 AM new
Of Ghosts and Mississippi
By MAUREEN DOWD
WASHINGTON
Karl Rove came back to his West Wing office after yet another fruitless meeting on the topic of "How to pry the Senate gavel from Trent Lott's cold, dead hands while pretending to be mildly supportive," to find his desk occupied.
Lee Atwater was spinning around in Karl's chair like a little kid.
"Wow, man, you really got it goin'," Lee's ghost told his old protégé, his raspy drawl tinged with envy. "The planets are lined up in your orbit. Bush's personal approval ratings are rockin'. You killed in the midterms. How'd it happen without me? You and me, the two boy geniuses of Southern politics. But you are more in the driver's seat of Junior's presidency than I ever was of the old man's. Everybody's waitin' to see what you'll do with my ol' buddy Trent.
"Poor Strom. I had some fun times when I was Strom's 16th — or was it 17th? — campaign manager for the Senate. I remember in '78 I put together a rally in Strom's race against Pug Ravenel. I stuck all the old, gnarly-lookin' white Klan types in the back, and put all the rosy, scrubbed schoolkids and their parents up front with flags near the TV cameras. You gotta keep the seggies on board, you just don't want 'em up front.
"Trent's soul train death dance ain't workin'. So many Democrats want him to stay, he has to go. What'd you guys call Trent in those newspaper leaks? A walking piñata? That piñata has gotta be smashed before Christmas. But be careful, man. The Bushes don't have much appetite for shoving somebody over the side, and they don't want to see our bloody handprints on the body.
"You are on the horns of a strategic dilemma, ol' man. You gotta bail out on Trent while giving the impression to our base in the South that you're not bailin'. You don't want to say anything that will get the seggies mad and you don't want to do anything that will remind the editorial writers about all the stuff you did for the seggies during the South Carolina primary: sending Junior to Bob Jones University; fuzzin' up Junior's position on the Confederate flag and attacking McCain's position as not supportive enough; having Junior cuddle up to Big Daddy Strom; winkin' when Republicans unrelated to the campaign — maybe even the same "unknown" parties who ran the Willie Horton ad in '88 — smeared McCain for having a black daughter.
"Lay in the weeds, Karl. Don't overreach on tellin' the Senate what to do. Get the Angel of Death, Dick Cheney, to get some senator to tell Trent to let loose. If you want Frist to replace him as majority leader, don't send Frist, cause they'll be rough on the messenger, too.
"I loved ol' Trent. I helped him back in '76 when he was leadin' the Reagan forces against Ford in Mississippi. And I can relate. I was sweatin' it that time when I was chairman of the party in '89 and I had to resign from Howard University's board after the students rioted 'cause of Willie Horton. It hurts to be called a racist, man.
"But you know we go by `Godfather' rules: This is business, not personal. How can Trent count the votes in the Senate if he can't count the C-Span cameras in a room? The man's dumber than concrete. Why didn't they just have a birthday party for Strom with some strippers, rather than a hokey thing with cameras?
"And what was that B.E.T. appearance about? What's next? Gettin' down on his knees with Jesse Jackson to pray? Goin' up to the Lincoln Memorial with John Lewis to recite "I have a dream"? Is Dick Morris dictatin' this dum-dum stuff to Trent?
"Pay no mind to the support he's gettin' from blacks in Congress. It's a ruse. If Trent stays now, he'll make Nancy Pelosi look like Phyllis Schlafly. He'll be an anchor around everything you want to do. Every judge you put up before the Senate with any kind of questionable record on civil rights, they'll tie Trent around him like a big red bow.
"You're gonna have to stop exploiting the black-white divide for awhile. We just go brown, get more Hispanics under the big tent.
"But we'll be able to use the code again. Junior just helped get Sonny Perdue elected governor of Georgia, callin' Sonny "a down-to-earth fellow." And ol' Sonny's main issue was restoring the Confederate flag. In 2004, Junior's gonna need all Sonny's confederate flag voters.
"You'll be O.K. Trent will go down. I always found in Washington, when they're out to getcha, they usually getcha."
posted on December 18, 2002 08:36:39 AM new
Thanks for the input, Reamond. [Always appreciate your responses.]
[ edited by Linda_K on Dec 18, 2002 08:38 AM ]
posted on December 18, 2002 03:29:56 PM new
I think I'm going to change my mind on Trent Lott stepping down from power. I really hope that he gets to be Senate Majority Leader - the leader of the Republican party. I don't think that there is a single issue that will galvanize Americans more than Civil Rights issues. Expect to see protest rallies, demostrators singing "We Shall Overcome" on the steps of Congress, and the mobilization of anti-racist forces. Expect to see the those of Jewish faith pull their support from BUsh and the GOP; see the Latino population suddenly back off from their tentative support for the GOP; what as balcks and white together march on Washington in protest of the Republicans in power; watch as recall elections start to recall any Republican in office as a 'racist', because if you aren't openly fighting Trent and the party, you must be a Bigot as well! Oh, yes! Let's all PRAY that Trent Lott stays in power!
From the beginning of this country, bigotry has been used to justify the exploitation of the black race for the purpose of enriching the economic elite. Even more profitable, however, has been the use of racism as camouflage to obscure the swindling of white Americans.
The corporate agenda of redistributing wealth upwards cannot survive scrutiny, so racism is an essential diversionary tactic. Republican politics is an evil little game based on the knowledge that the elitist conservative agenda can only attain an electoral majority by appealing overtly to the greed of the Lucy Ricardos of America while appealing covertly to the bigotry of the Archie Bunkers. For the GOP, the equation is Petty Bourgeoisie + Redneck = Victory. It is absolutely essential that Archie be made to focus on race so he does not notice that conservative policies are bleeding him dry.
Don Nickles appreciates that the hate factor requires a certain degree of finesse because – tax cuts or no tax cuts - Lucy is not going to vote for Bull Connor. Therefore, the right wing is anxious for Nickles to replace Trent Lott as Senate Majority Leader so they can get back to the business of race baiting with boyish charm.
Part of the game is pretending to be appalled on those unfortunate occasions when private convictions make their way into the public domain. Republicans, who selected Lott to be the leader of the Senate precisely because they knew he shared their racist philosophy, are now expressing astonishment to learn that he is prejudiced. As if on cue, conservative commentators across the country are shedding crocodile tears in sympathy with the same black community that they excoriated for being delusional during the Florida recount.
The mainstream media – Corporate America’s latter day version of Joseph Goebbels – at first ignored Lott’s most recent bout of Confederate Tourrette’s Syndrome, just as they chose not to notice all of his previous public professions of devotion to Jim Crow. Now, the journalistic Children of the Corn are scandalized, having taken their lead from their corporate masters who want the equally racist but more discreet Nickles to supplant Lott.
Even George W. Bush stopped drooling over the thought of slaughtering Iraqi children long enough to feign horror that Lott admires Strom Thurmond, who is also admired by Bush. There hasn’t been this much insincere moral indignation on public display since Captain Louis Renault was shocked - shocked I tell you - to discover gambling at Rick’s Place.
Demonstrably, Republican success has been constructed on the foundation of racism. Until the mid-Sixties, the GOP was highly competitive in seeking black votes, but was unable to win control of Congress. With the passage of civil rights legislation and the resulting rise in popularity of Alabama segregationist Governor George Wallace, Richard Nixon perceived an opportunity to create an electoral majority by appealing to the bigotry of resentful whites. Calling it his “Southern Strategy”, Nixon went about winning two elections by courting the racist element of the New Deal Coalition. By the time Ronald Reagan finished putting a human face on hating blacks, the Republicans had gained control of the Senate, and the party was firmly entrenched as the place to see and be seen for all your better bigots.
Poppy Bush then guided the GOP further back towards Andersonville by endowing his presidential campaign with the unofficial theme that Dukakis and the Democrats would let the darkies out of prison to rape your white wife. And, of course, Bush II took the next logical step by just preventing black votes from being counted in places where they would matter in deciding the election. From Nixon through Dubya, each succeeding GOP Grand Dragon has appointed to the federal bench judges with histories of virulent hostility towards African Americans.
It is against this backdrop that the right wing is now engaging in multiple choice damage control by claiming Lott “is a good man who must do a better job of explaining himself” (John McCain), “is being unfairly mischaracterized and harassed by the professional civil rights crybabies in order to damage the GOP” (Rush Limbaugh), “creates the false impression that conservatives hate blacks” (Bill Kristol), and “is completely unrepresentative of the pro-civil rights record of the modern Republican Party” (Charles Krauthammer).
Then again, sometimes things are exactly as they appear to be. The bigotry of Trent Lott is that of the modern Republican Party. He has been making exactly the same hateful statements since the 1960s while steadily rising through the ranks as a leader of the New Right. When Lott was an obscure House member, Nixon identified him as a race baiter with a future. Lott was given a plum assignment on the influential Judiciary Committee, where he unflinchingly defended Watergate as being good government while championing a return to “separate but equal”. Gerald Ford warmly praised him as a “man of integrity” at the very time Lott was strenuously fighting against implementing court-ordered desegregation in the South.
Reagan stood cheek to cheek with Lott in Philadelphia, Mississippi when the Gipper symbolically kicked off his reelection campaign on ground that was stained with the blood of murdered civil rights workers. Poppy Bush called Lott “a great American” several weeks after the senator voted against honoring Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. with a national holiday. Bob Dole said that he would seriously consider Lott to be his running mate as the Mississippi senator was busy denying confirmation hearings to black Clinton judicial nominees.
Dick Cheney has said Lott is a “great American”.
Even now, McCain calls the Senate Majority Leader “a man of integrity”.
And George W. Bush, when he is not making cynical condemnations of statements that align perfectly with his own policies, has lauded Lott for being “a national treasure”.
All of the effusive praise, coming from every significant Republican leader of this era, has been made with the full knowledge that Trent Lott remains an unreconstructed Confederate whose personal hero is Jefferson Davis. As Lott fought each advance by African Americans during the last four decades, the GOP vigilantly responded by pushing him ever higher up the party ladder until he became the most powerful Republican legislator in America.
Lott must now be feeling a legitimate sense of victimization, wondering why he was taken out to the woodshed and coerced to make phony apologies for being the same hatemonger that his party has always embraced. It is like something out of the Soviet Union, where a venerated apparatchik who outlived his usefulness got carted off to Siberia for “counterrevolutionary activity” that was indistinguishable from his meritorious lifetime of “revolutionary activity”.
There are many villains in this sordid affair, and Trent Lott is not foremost among them. He has belatedly been exposed as being David Duke with road kill pasted to his scalp, but Lott is not responsible for turning a backwater bigot into the leader of the United States Senate. It took a roster of scoundrels for that to occur.
The primary miscreant is Corporate America, which runs this country, underwrites both parties, and warmly embraces racism but deeply deplores its racists’ creating controversy. The mainstream media is the propaganda arm of big business; Rather and Jennings and Brokaw have known for decades of Lott’s bigotry, and they could have derailed his career long ago by merely reporting the truth. However, they have also been aware that he favors huge tax cuts for their rapacious multinational employers. Trent Lott is a clueless racist bastard – the racist bastards of the boardroom know exactly what they are doing.
The Republican Party has perverted the outcome of the Civil War by devolving into the vehicle through which the Confederate ethos becomes national policy. The vitriolic majority in Mississippi has every right to elect someone who reflects their un-American values, but that in no way required the Republicans to make him their Senate leader. The party embraced Lott because, while the GOP strives to talk like Abraham Lincoln, it prefers to govern like Lester Maddox. Lott’s mistake in the eyes of his fellow Republicans is the talking part, not the governing part. Every time the right wing gains power, the black community is targeted for economic hardship and social disruption. The entire conservative movement should have been there alongside Lott offering apologies on Black Entertainment Television. Unfortunately, what African Americans will receive instead is more unprovoked abuse.
The Republican jihad against wrongly colored people has gone largely unchallenged. The Democratic Party increasingly resembles what is known in pro wrestling as “the opponent”, whose job consists of creating the illusion of competition prior to taking a dive. The party tolerates and enables the racism of the GOP; it might be that the Democrats despise the black people on whom they depend for votes, or it could be the Democrats merely feel morally compelled to exhibit cowardice at all times, or maybe the Democrats are just honoring the script. Regardless, the outcome is disgraceful.
Last, but never least, the American people bear responsibility for the Lott fiasco. As a result of the sacrifices of their predecessors, the current generation of Americans has been awarded more freedom than any civilization in history. Unfortunately, most folks are too busy mastering video games and living vicariously through soap operas to really care. If someone would post the racist Republican agenda on an Internet porn site, maybe the masses would finally take a hard look at it.
This latest tempest reveals less about Trent Lott than it does about the United States. Lott will either survive the uproar or be replaced by another bigot, and nothing will change. The overriding question is whether those Americans who are not racist tools of big business are ever going to get fighting mad that their country is being run by people who are. Until righteous anger overtakes the apathy that currently infects the good people among us, conservatives will continue to spread their hatred while recoiling in mock horror at the idea that racism even exists.
Bunnicula - Well...you certainly looked short in that picture with you standing next to SFM. Okay...so you're not short 
chortle