posted on December 17, 2002 12:47:48 PM new
Linda:
visit one of the many drug rehab units [as a visitor or support person]. There you will find it filled with your successful people who THOUGHT they could use drugs recreationally but somehow their addiction got away from them. They lost all the things they thought were so important to them. Their jobs, their businesses, their money, their posessions, etc. EVERYTHING. And they come to realize that their love of the drug was more important than anything in their lives.
It sounds more like you are speaking about 'real' drugs, not MJ.
Although I don't partake personally...
My MIL has been smoking for 30 years, ever since a particularly nasty car accident.
Her 'prescribed' meds caused awful side effects and did little for the pain. Any relief she got from 'legal' drugs had her stoned out of her mind.
yet...
Two hits and she is pain-free and fully functional.
the stuff the Docs gave her?
talk about mind altering!
those same people, who have continued to smoke MJ until now have lost brain cells by doing just that. They're the homeless, the addicts, the one's who are living on welfare because they can no longer care for themselves
My SIL & BIL have been smoking since HS, 20+ years of consistent recreational smoking.
They own a home, are not addicts, are not on welfare, and care for themselves & their three healthy children.
Maybe the couple who smokes pot together stays happily married?
The reports that you are basing your information on seem slanted.
As are the writings proving the benefits of MJ use.
MJ is NOT what the Drug War is about.
MJ is barely a drug at all.
I get more stoned from Midol (all that &*$%#@! caffeine)
I am frightened for those who buy MJ off of the streets ~
what is it laced with?
how potent is it?
Legalize it, control it, and tax it.
[ edited by zoomin on Dec 17, 2002 12:48 PM ]
posted on December 17, 2002 12:59:46 PM new
That's kind of a misconception Linda. The drugs doctors dole out ARE hard drugs. The only difference is there might be crap added to the street stuff.
kyms makes a good point - at $250.00 to $350.00 an oz., not many people can afford to smoke pot. That's why decriminilization will help because people that really need it are the least likely to be able to afford it. Now they will be able to buy mj freely from Compassion Clubs without fear of being put in jail. Like I mentioned, there are over 600,000 people in Canada that have been charged with less than 1 oz. of mj over the past 2 years. I'd be afraid to find out the number in the U.S. This is just plain silly. It's a law that doesn't work.
posted on December 17, 2002 01:16:48 PM new
Hi zoomin - The first paragraph you copied [of mine] was referring to harder drugs. Although just like any drug, people can become too dependent [and according to the URL I posted addicted in some cases] on MJ too.
And I'd agree, there are exceptions to every rule.
Kraft - I'm not sure what you mean by misconception. Yes, there are prescription drugs that would be considered 'hard' drugs.
zoomin, kraft and kyms...the research results speak to the issue of long term, constant use.
This will continue to be an issue of debate until [or not] the laws are changed. So far, it's been voted down. You can't just ignore the research results [found on many drug sites] as not being true. Well....you can but there's alot of evidence out there that speaks to the issue of how it affects health.
posted on December 17, 2002 01:38:14 PM new
Hi Linda
I thought you were referring to harder drugs.
Your posts are clearer to me if you are considering all drugs v. MJ ~
do you view MJ as being in the same category as crack?
Personally, I don't believe any findings that claim MJ is addictive. (unless it has been laced with something, that is)
dependency?
maybe.
But you've known me long enough to *believe* that I am truly addicted to & dependent on Caffeine.
God how I *need* that stuff.
2 large Iced Coffees to start the day, lotsa Coke through the afternoon.
I am lost without it.
(I just don't like it in my Midol or my Migraine meds ~ they really need to warn people about that!)
I can't think of any exceptions ~
all of the long term pot smokers that I know are valued and respected members of society.
Again, it is all about Moderation & Maturity.
~ however ~
People with addictive / compulsive personality traits will always fall victim to something.
You don't become a drunk because you drink.
Not all alcoholics are drunks
Not all *drunks* are alcoholics ~
some people are simply addicts.
Just because people get stoned, doesn't mean they go through life stoned.
posted on December 17, 2002 01:50:35 PM new
zoomin - do you view MJ as being in the same category as crack. Most certainly not.
I'm one who believes that for our young children it can and does lead to experimentation with the harder drugs. You know, this feels good, that must feel better. Again in the url I provided, but I've read it many times elsewhere too, most who use MJ are in the 12 - 17 year age range. Alcohol is a BIG problem with our young and I just don't feel making it cheaper or easier to purchase and drug is the way to go. I know most here don't agree. It's my belief system.
posted on December 17, 2002 01:55:22 PM new
Helen, I just saw your question on the 2nd page, and I'll answer it as well as I can.
Yes, alcohol can be dangerous to withdraw from for a long term chronic drinker. DTs (delirum tremors) are pretty standard, and by that point, the patient usually has liver and possibly brain damage. At that point, there are usually complicating factors to deal with. I do consider alcohol a dangerous drug, since it can cause death from overingestion, and is very toxic to the liver, and prolonged use certainly affects the brain. Many ER admisssions are due to alcohol, and in my own area of health care, fetal alcohol syndrome is becoming more recognized.
I am in favor of the decriminization of marijuana. I believe it has medicinal uses, and I believe it to be much less dangerous than alcohol. Not many hospitals get marijuana overdoses. Users may become habituated, but not addicted.
And a pet peeve of mine is the issue of pain control, and the reluctance of some docs to prescribe adequate drugs for a patient's pain, because of fear of addiction, the DEA, or plain non belief in what the patient is reporting.
Linda, sensationalizing the dangers of a drug that has beneficial potential does no one any good.
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on December 17, 2002 02:09:38 PM new
snowegret - Pointing out research results is not sensationalizing the issue, IMO, anymore than speaking to the issue of the dangers of drinking while pregnant is. They both are the dangerous to the fetus from what we're aware of to this point. They are side affects from smoking pot just like there are from drinking when pregnant.
And that URL does reference ER visits do to MJ use.
You know I very much appreciate your medical knowledge but as in all aspects of life even the specialists don't always agree with one another on the same issues.
posted on December 17, 2002 03:04:23 PM new
I don't mean this to be a personal attack. No offense intended.
But when I see anyone say anything at stupid as this it makes me laugh.
"My question is....
Who is going to pay for all the social and health programs that are going to be required to support those addicted and/or those who"just want to use it and can't get a job because of drug use"?
Legalize it, go ahead, but do not make me pay to get you out of the gutter."
What an ignorant thing to say.
You are paying a much larger amount of money dealing with the side effects of drugs right now. Never mind the high cost of prison. Never mind the cost to society from stigmatising something that is on par with Alchohol or Tobacco abuse. What about the LEGAL costs of dealing with this in courts?
I just met someone who had to chew Nicorettes on an overseas flight because she couldn't last 12 hours without a cigarette.
I have yet to meet a stoner that couldn't do that, never mind the casual user.
Not everyone that drinks is an alcoholic. Not everyone that takes the occasional hit off of a joint is a crazed freak.
If you really don't want to pay for social programs change what exists now, because it causes much more need and expense than some mellow weed dude!
Legalize and tax it like Tobacco. And stop wasting all of the monies spent on "The War on Drugs."
posted on December 17, 2002 03:08:26 PM new
Tobacco leads to harder drugs. It leads to that nice cup of coffee with that cigarette and then sometimes....to cigars....
posted on December 17, 2002 03:24:16 PM new
Studies have been done on both sides. Show me a study that shows marijuana as dangerous or deadly, that is not funded by a group of people who lobby to keep it illegal.
The liquor industry wants it illegal for obvious reasons. As does the tobacco industry.
The makers of plastics would like it illegal beacuse hemp is better and cheaper than plastic.
Eli Lily and the Bush family wants it illegal so they can push prozac and urine tests.
The government wants it illegal so they can keep thousands of narcs, prison staff, drug testers and Dare Program people employed while earning major campaign funds from the above mentioned.
There is profit in it being illegal. Big profit. Just ask Bush Sr. and Ollie North....
posted on December 17, 2002 03:44:21 PM new
canvid13:
Tobacco leads to harder drugs. It leads to that nice cup of coffee with that cigarette and then sometimes....to cigars...
sometimes Tobacco leads you down a different path...
One cigarette...
then another...
then the most satifying smoke of all...
(Yes, you know where this is leading...)
shhhhh...
S-E-X
posted on December 17, 2002 03:54:26 PM new
Linda, to be very honest, I'll take what I've seen in my 20+ years of clinical experience in the hospitals over what "some research" says on a government site. The government has an agenda in regards to marijuana use, and is not unbiased.
I've seen studies that said that the "crack babies' " later developmental and social problems that were being originally reported were actually not being observed in those studies.
Everything affects the fetus, even innocuous drugs such as caffeine. After birth, the abused drugs that have a big effect on the baby are the opiates, alcohol, and crack. Occasionally, the babies show repiratory depression due to the pain killers given to the mom during labor to a point where we have to give Narcan to reverse it. Would I suggest not giving those painkillers? No. Do I think drug abuse during pregnancy is OK? No, and I've actually gotten a reprimand for stating that such use was inappropriate.
JUst to pick at the bad science shown on that page, (and it's bad if I can spot inconsistencies right off the bat)
[quote]More recently, the same researchers showed that a group of long-term heavy marijuana users' ability to recall words from a list was impaired 1 week following cessation of marijuana use, but returned to normal by 4 weeks.73[/quote]
That seems to contradict the other researchers findings of long term cognitive problems.
One of the studies had both alcohol and marijuana use. Can't draw conclusions regarding one substance when two were being used concurrently.
I'm going to see if I can find ref75, even though it was published in 89, because I haven't observed those responses {tremulousness, and high pitched cry, and we don't test visual response.}. But I have observed those responses in babies withdrawing from opiates, and exposed to crack.
I'm reading that link, and I still can't find ER visits referenced.
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on December 18, 2002 02:35:32 PM new
I think the Gov has lotsa ideas about sex...
well, at least they did when Bill was in office!
They could never figure a way to tax it though.....
elephants have developed a taste for rice beer and local liquor and they always look for it when they invade villages
How many tax dollars do you think will be spent to cure the habit?
Those theiving beasts!
[ edited by zoomin on Dec 18, 2002 02:44 PM ]
posted on December 19, 2002 10:14:44 AM new
Hello everyone, mind if I butt in?
Decriminalizing mj will put some capitalists
out of business, for sure.
Didya hear about that guy in New York who had a 1-800 buy pot number?
Didya hear about the guy who dropped out of college so he could traffic mj full time? The dude has no college education and he's now a millionaire.
If selling pot is your way to upward mobility as you personally see it, then yeah, you will take that opportunity.
I for one, think the Canadians are infiltrating this country one quarter at a time.
My friends from Canada visited my house and while they were here they hid my microwave.
They wrote me a note saying that not even the Communists subject their people to such a thing.
Meanwhile I'm working 50 hours a week and
reheating macaroni and cheese in a frying pan.
The funny thing is that before they went on "vacation", they dropped off all their aluminum cookware and parked their Ford truck in my driveway.
They said "We want you to sell our truck for us, we're moving back to Canada."
They come back, pick up their truck, saying they're taking a two day trip to Oregon and then I don't see them again.
The spare Ford keys are hanging by my door,
and they also left a nice hairball in my shower.
Am I a victim of a heinous Canadian crime?
No. I should've seen it coming. They
had no stake in conformity.
I was on a long bus ride, sitting next to a gentle, weathered black
man, married for 30 years and on his way home from Orlando to Athens.
We were rolling through the moonlit, rolling piney hills of central
Georgia. The conversation turned to drugs.
"So what about the drugs?" Lawson asks
"Lookie here, Lawson," I said as we purred through some nameless bump
on a map. "If we could somehow convince the driver to stop for 20
minutes and you gave me 20 bucks to buy drugs, you know what I'd come
back with."
Lawson nodded.
"That's right, a coke rock. Wouldn't be no weed; coke. The safest
stuff is the hardest to get. Kinda weird, huh?"
"Yes it is. Why is that?"
"Friend of mine saw Chuck Amato sitting in this Corvette, front of a
7-Eleven, yakking on a cell phone, right? My boy leaps out of the
pickup truck and runs over to the 'vette.
"'Coach, coach,' he says, 'I just got one question.'"
Coach takes the phone from his ear. "What's that?"
"'How come both of the coaches in the Black Coaches Association Bowl
are white?'"
"So he sits there for a second, right? 'Lemme tell ya, son,' coach
says. 'Know what it's all about? It's all about the money.'"
Lawson laughed. "For real?"
"Cute story. But that's the reason it is so easy to get coke and not
weed. Da money. Volume."
The Department of Defense threw in the towel last month on the "war on
drugs," recognizing the unwinnablity of the whole mess. So now, the
Plan Colombia funds (U.S. largesse to one of the worst countries in
the world for human rights violations, cutting people up with
chainsaws and such) have now been quietly shifted to fight "evil
dewers"--oh yeah, and to lock up Colombia's oil.
Amid all this war talk, I can't be the only person who's noticed that
talk of hard drugs (along with the whole continent of South America)
seems to have slipped quietly beneath the waves, replaced by really
unrealistic, dumb TV ads about so-and-so's marijuana dealers.
For some perspective on this, once again class, what are the four
biggest revenue businesses in the world? (1) Weapons (2) Illegal and
diverted drugs (3) Sex (AT&T and General Motors' broadband businesses
are among the world's biggest purveyors of pornography; why do you
think Enron was so hot on broadband?) And (4) Petroleum.
Sounds like a good weekend at Myrtle.
Remember, it was your northern elites, your Russells and such, who got
in with the Brits on what led up to the "Opium War," a conflict fought
to secure the blessings of drug profiteering at the expense of the
Chinese people by violating the sovereignty of that nation,
establishing the franchise against the wishes of the Emperor after
shooting their way up river.
And it's the biggest not-news that it was a dude named Alphonse Capone
who pioneered the drive-by shooting over another unwinnable war.
Hey, everybody got in on that deal. It was on board Old Joe's large,
fast powerboats where JFK cut his teeth, ending up on PT 109 (a vessel
that would have done stellar service as a whiskey boat--torpedo tubes
and all). The modern analog would be George Herbert Walker Bush's
great enthusiasm for a gentleman name of Don Aranow, the capo de capo
of the Cigarette boat works., who, some may remember, got whacked in a
very professional manner in Miami--something about money laundering
and drugs.
More coincidences. GHW Bush, an East-Coast scion of the type normally
inclined toward the gentle flutter of sea and sail, somehow ended up
with one of those vulgar high-speed offshore "racers," Fidelity,
previously owned by a member of the Meyer Lansky crime organization.
Then there's the case of a certain Beechcraft King-Air, that "Poppy,"
bought for the boys, Dubya, Neil, Jeb and Marvin, that curiously
carried the same tail number as the one owned by a Barry Seal, the
Iran/Contra era CIA/Coke dude who was able to move his operations to
Mena, Ark., continuing to move huge amounts of blow under the nose (so
to speak) of then Gov. Bill Clinton.
Boring, boring, boring. This stuff has been gone over so many times,
notably by journalist Gary Webb of the San Jose Mercury News as well
as seasoned L.A. homicide and narcotics investigator Michael Ruppert,
both of whom had their lives ruined (Ruppert was shot at twice) after
uncovering what many African Americans like my friend Lawson on the
bus suspected all along--the U.S. government (CIA) peddles crack in
'da ghetto.
But America's drug problem is the world's problem. Profits from the
U.S.'s ongoing party has caused incalculable devastation throughout
the globe, but nowhere is the damage more pointed than in the Andean
region--Colombia, Peru, and now, cross border in Venezuela, where
Colombian troops chase profit-driven "narco-terrorists" into another
country to escape the Round-up Ultra that drifts over fields and
forest, pigs and ponds (and at one point the late Sen. Paul
Wellstone), sprayed by the Colombian military and CIA associated
companies such as DynCorp, (check them out) a plane of whose was
busted in Miami--heroin on board.
But let's for a second forget these troubling facts and history and
estimate real-world how well this war is faring.
For this we turn now to the market report. See, as I used to provide
weed to dying people, I know a little about the business.
First, anyone see the signs on 540 from the DEA, "You think it's dry
now (weed), wait until November?" Well, for all their helicopters
(been in 'em), night-vision this, informant-that, all those dogs and
guns and #*!@, only thing they've managed to do is make it harder
to get, pushing the price up a tick, about 20 bucks an ounce.
Difference is, unlike the white stuff, you have to make a phone call.
For those prices, I have to rely on the word of real, live drug
addicts. Coke seems to be holding steady, 70 to 100, depending on
quality. The biggest non-surprise is that the market price for a good,
clean bag of kill-you-dead downtown straight outta Alston Avenue has
dropped from 30 to 10 bucks in less than a year, courtesy of our good
friends the Northern Alliance flooding the global market with real
quality opium.
The Feds are so losing the war (if that is truly the case, and not
just, as I suspect, a cover) that it would be an object of great humor
were it not for the tens of thousands of poor, dead brown people and
the million or so Americans serving lengthy prison sentences for
non-violent drug convictions. Thanks guys. Nice work.
So, despite the billions of dollars wasted and the millions of lives
ruined by the law, hard drug consumption is up and prices are down.
When are we going to get some brains about this thing and begin to
treat drug use as social issue instead of the old puritan ideal that
if it feels good, it must be crushed.
Now the reality check--the approximate annual death rate from randomly
selected fun-and-games, American style. Cigarettes: 350,000+.
Pharmaceuticals: 125,000 (est). Automobiles: 40,000. Firearms: 15,000.
Alcohol (hard to estimate, a lot of the deaths from "hey y'all, watch
this": 13,000. Aspirin: 4,000. Cocaine and heroin: each around 3,000.
And ganga?
Zip. Zero. Nada, Nuttin'. None. Not just for last year but for every
year, for all time, for the entire history of pharmacopoeia, there has
never been one single death ascribed to the use of Cannabis. Put that
in your pipe and smoke it.
Who cares about weed? Not local cops, nor the average citizen. That
would be the Office of National Drug Control Policy and the gutless,
mewling vote grubbing sycophants who claim to run this country.
You want money? Forget the lottery. If the State of North Carolina
were to legalize and levy a modest $10 tax on a quarter ounce of weed
(my out-of-thin-air guess for weekly consumption), the take for the
estimated 2 million pot smokers in the state (DEA won't give
estimates, these are from other sources) would be around a billion
(that's b as in nine zeros) per year. Imagine what the state could
make off all drugs if we boxed 'em, taxed 'em and sold them, reduce
the loss of life from drug violence and accidental overdoses. A great
start toward a sensible drug policy would be to rescind the absurd
prohibition on marijuana. Is anyone listening?
posted on December 19, 2002 08:04:13 PM new
I just saw an ad on TV twice tonight that intimates that drug money supports terrorism.
The only thing it contained to support this idea was that the actor who was skeptical of the idea needed a shave and and acted as if he was disoriented and stupid. The hard ass that had contempt for him simply explained it was so becasue he said so. After all he wore glasses had nicer clothing, and better posture. Rarely have I seen such an honest show of the government's attitude. We say so: so it IS.
I have known quite a few people who use pot. I have never indulged myself. A few of them did have problems with memory and higher thinking ability. The majority were able to function well at jobs requiring very difficult mental ability doing design, precision machining, executive management, and several ran their own successful businesses. They all agreed on one thing. That the government was basically dishonest about drug problems. One fellow in particular specifically said he had never met anyone that had flashbacks from drugs unless they already had mental problems without the drugs. He felt that a lot of people were labeled as having drug problems when they were mentally ill and trying to self medicate.
posted on December 19, 2002 09:15:55 PM new
"One fellow in particular specifically said he had never met anyone that
had flashbacks from drugs unless they already had mental problems without the drugs. He felt that a lot
of people were labeled as having drug problems when they were mentally ill and trying to self medicate."
I agree 100%. The ONLY people I know that have problems with drugs had mental problems long before they ever smoked a joint. The drugs are only a symptom of a much larger problem.
posted on December 20, 2002 12:27:20 AM new
Of note too, about Joe Kennedy and running booze. While many people know about that, much fewer know that many of the signers of the Declaration of Independace were also smugglers! That's someting that you don't get taught about in American History class in school! There is a magnificent documentary series that the History Channel likes to play once in a while that each segment focues on one or two Founding Fathers and the War of Independance. Seems that Thomas Jefferson wasn't just a rich land-owner who had a black mistress -- he was activly involved in his own smuggling operations. He even had some problems with one of his ships being seized by the British Governor for smuggling and this anti-British sentiment that Samual Adams was brewing up (ha! ha!) seemed like a good investment . . .
I forget just how many of the signers were actually smugglers, but it was at least a handful of them. So, while many may wish to disparage Joe Kennedy's method of fortune founding, it rests in very good company - the best!
posted on December 20, 2002 09:18:43 AM new
As far as I know, every person that I've mentioned to about this blitz of ads about the dangers of smoking marijuana on TV of late has shook their heads in confusion. What a pitiful minor drug for the government to be going after.
While three states did not decriminalize this last voting time around, it will be getting more and more difficult to hold back the tide of decriminalization of marijuana.
The government should instead put together its old plans with the Tobacco Industry, whereby the tobacco giants grow the weed, remove the debris and the nasty stuff that makes it burn at such a high temperature, and even add filters to the ends of the marijuana cigarettes as an alternative choice for consumers.
Unless the Tobacco Industry can come up with a really unique marijuana product, I see no way that the government will be able to collect taxes on its use. This talk about taxing it is nonsense. It is one thing to try to run a still in your backyard to make your own whiskey and another to simply set aside a small plot in your garden for your own consumption of marijuana. That's a big reason why taxing and regulating alcohol consumption works so well and why it would fail for marijuana use.
How to improve a marijuana cigarette?
Taste: something has to be done about the NASTY taste! Yech! I haven't smoked it since the late 1970's, but I can still taste it - blah!
Smell: it's wayyyy too strong an odor to not notice! How many times have you been walking along the sidewalk on an evening's wind brings the smell of pot smoking from somewhere? They would have to cut down the smell of the smoke.
Temperature: Yow! I don't know about today's MJ, but back then, it sure burned a >lot< hotter than cigarettes did. Dried out the tongue and throat and Heaven help you if you coughed while inhaling!
Quality: "No Stems, No Seeds that you don't need! Acapulco Gold is Bad-Ass Weeeed!" -Cheech and Chong-
Price: You couldn't price it too expensive. After all, the Tobacco Companies would be competing against home growers.
At the right price and with such a quality product, most folks aren't going to bother growing it themselves. Oh, sure! At first they will, because they finally can without being harassed or busted. However, a lot of people just have neither the time, inclination, or ability to cultivate their own crops and would prefer a pre-packaged, high-quality, reasonably priced product.
It is the way things will eventually be. We just have to get the government to change its thinking.
posted on December 20, 2002 09:23:14 AM new
I like the Chinese solution, wish we would start that here.
But I can see ways the US can make big dollars out of this, anyone caught coming in would get their vehicle confiscated and fined oh lets say $10,000 per oz... sell the vehicle and put a lein on any property they have until the fine is paid also add penalties and interest... could be a huge cash cow for US.
Any Canadian would just just have their vehicle confiscated and sent home... nice and easy way to make some money.
but there's alot of evidence out there that speaks to the issue of how it affects health.
Users may become habituated, but not addicted.
