posted on January 6, 2003 08:58:19 AM newReally? You can't see how insulting that you were?
Oh, absolutely.
And more insults. And you feel that I shouldn't be allowed to return it in kind?
Did I say that? (No.)
The only thing that I've done differently than most people is to talk about it without the knee-jerk responses that some people feel are socially acceptable opinions.
I'll avoid taking an easy shot here, i.e., lifting you up as a champion of pedophilia. I will point out, though, that if you play both sides of the fence, you should expect it.
And yes, I do know what normalize means. I was the one who used that word. You have become so provocative lately that apparently you can't even remember the topic or what was said, in your rush to inflame the conversation.
As for the book, I haven't read it so I can't comment on that. Other than to point out that there ARE limits on free speech. Our constitution doesn't guarantee total freedom of any kind.
I also found some anti-NAMBLA sites. Obviously, man/boy love isn't everyone's cup of tea. That type of crime is utterly repugnant, for what should be obvious reasons. I found some interesting reading at buttboys.org and CPAC.
BTW, I did know a pedophile once. He was a perfectly sweet and wonderful old man. Unfortunatly, I discovered he was diddling the neighbor's 14-year old. As it happens, he was retired from the position of janitor at the local high school. It's impossible to estimate how many lives that man ruined.
posted on January 6, 2003 11:32:59 AM new
Oh, I agree: it is a totally repugnant crime! It is a bad thing, no matter how it has been perceived in the past. I haven't read the book and I have no plans to, as I already said, but you have to understand that simply reading their manual is not going to turn anyone into a pedophile. You can't catch mental illness that way! That's a superstition.
As far as what I find so interesting about the subject in history is that history has been white washed of this form of mental illness and it has only been in the last five years or so that pedophillia is coming to light out of the closet. Suddenly, our human history is being re-written and persons that you once admired now take on a more unsavory flavor. Kings and Popes and Adventurers and Conqueres and Generals and Inventors and Clerics of every rank and stripe ~ all that history is written about their exploits, so many have been painted with nasty colors. Peter the Great of Russia was suposed to be a homosexual, for instance.
The list goes on and on. Plus, as we widen the historical scope, we see middle-eastern cultures and asian cultures who have had quite a different outlook than Westeners have. Except when you learn about the amount of tolerance for pedophiles that we have had in Western History and in our nation comparable to homsexuals. Then you begin to realize that maybe our current repugnance is based only upon current ideals of virtues and morals.
That is the problem with history: it takes the superstition out of what we'd like to think off of our eyes. Your suggestion that I support pedophillia is outrageous, simply because I have a more educated perspective than you do and I can control my gut reactions. That I dare to go out on a limb here and talk about pedophilia as mental illness that needs to be treated isn't sensationalism as you are charging me with. This is a public forum where, according to many on here who participate, no subject is too controversial a topic or subject to be discussed. If you find the topic revolting, then say so and LEAVE the thread! Don't go putting words, actions, or ideas into otherr people when you certainly don't know what you are talking about!
And yes - you were and still are being insulting. And no - I didn't say that YOU were having a problem with the word normalize, I said it was me who was not sure how you were using it.
posted on January 6, 2003 11:49:58 AM new
So....When are you gonna fix the perverts?
You keep saying it is a mental illness that needs to be fixed, So fix it.
You say it needs to be "treated"Then that means there is a 100 percent treatment.
Prove it.Give the websites or newspaper urls for this treatment.
posted on January 6, 2003 11:58:44 AM new
Show me names of treated Pedophiles,Not the "one," and only, who had a tumor removed from his head. Show names of Pedophiles,who no longer hurt kids...other then the ones who or dead.
posted on January 6, 2003 12:38:43 PM new
I was reading today that most pedophiles do not want to injure children. According to specialists at Johns Hopkins, they are looking for understanding, love and companionship from children.
Most pedophiles use fantasy and pornography to deal with their problem.
posted on January 6, 2003 01:02:08 PM new
What they say, and what they do, has always been a contradiction.After a while,the readable smut, and videos no longer work.They then seek a victim,and act out their fantasys.
Thats the gist of what I have read recently.
posted on January 6, 2003 01:05:49 PM new
junquemama - As with all things, it depends on what the word 'injure' means to each of us. They don't see 'loving' a child [by having sex with them] as doing anything to 'injure' the children. They are just loving them. SICK
posted on January 6, 2003 01:27:04 PM new
Also, not everyone is unable to discern fantasy from reality. If we are to extend junquemama's theory or child rapists, we will have to remove every book, movie, and play that contains a murder mystery, as people who read those novelettes will eventually become murderers themelves, and so on and so forth. Nonsense. You have to be mentally ill first before any manual or book or movie will motivate someone to promote criminal fantasy to criminal reality.
As far as those "cured" goes, that just further proves how ignorant that you are on the subject of mental illness. If you understood that area of medicine in the least, you would know that mental illnesses are almost never "cureable"; that there is no cure or end to the illness. Rather, with treatment and over time with a willing patient, progress can be made so that the mental illness is controllable. Those that are unwilling or do not respond to treeatment for any reason and are a harm to society should be incarcerated. I have said this before.
posted on January 6, 2003 01:45:06 PM new
What Helen said is quite true, to my knowledge. I will tell you a personal story to illustrate.
Some of you may know that I used to volunteer my time helping out abused and emotionally ill children. With one family in the program, I learned a lot that I learned a great deal.
This family was originally from Oklahoma, as that is how far back that they could reckon their family history. Here in Oregon, it was only in the late 1970's that the extended family first had a place to live with running water. Not just Hot running water, but water of any kind that you didn't have to go down to a stream for.
The father of this family had been killed in a logging accident and the family finally through themselves onto the social safety net of the state. That is where things began to come into the light.
It turns out that in this extended family that incest was rampant and that it went for the entire extended family into Texas and Nevada and Mississippi. For them, they saw nothing wrong with it. The state, on the other hand, took every practicing MALE and tried them and convicted them of Child Rape and are likely still there rotting away in prison to this day. The females were given "treatment" for their illness.
The rest of the family and the kids were taught about why it was wrong for them to be doing what they had been doing for who knew how many generations or centuries. The children that I worked with told me that what hurt them wasn't the sex that they had had with the adults. Rather, it was that the adults were being punished and gone to prison, never to be seen again and that learning what they had been doing was Wrong. That was what was causing them the distress.
That was a can of worms that I did not bother to dig in any deeper, as I was totally repulsed and unqualified to deal with such things.
I also later learned that out here in the Frontier West, incest and pedophilia were common and at times, rampant, due to the lack females or even sex partners, should one parent die for any reason and the other was left with a large family. It was looked at the other way.
As I read history, I found that these things were not uncommon anytime you had isolated people: the Germanic frontiers of Rome to the Frontiers of Russia and the Soviet Union to China to Japan to the American Indians to just really everyone who has had a segment of society too isolated for too long a period. Perhaps in our more modern world, we are all closer together and such solutions are unnecessary and therefore, undesirable.
At any rate, I feel unqualified to judge such matters and leave it u0p to God to judge such things. Certainly, the child rapist who hides in the bushes to ambush small children as they wander home from school, rape, mutilate, and kill them -- these are people who are not pedophiles, they are psychopaths who have chosen the most helpless and the most innocent among us to destroy. To argue that pedophiles are all the same as these psychopaths is the same as claiming that rapists do it for sexual reasons.
So, I believe Helen when she states that most pedophiles -- those that find themselves in that way, are horrified and seek treatment. Many are afraid to seek treatment, due to attitudes like twinsoft's and junquemamas, because they are afraid that they will be singled out for punishment. Instead of getting treatment, some go on to really offend and that is the fault of those who have attitudes like junquemama's and twinsoft's.
posted on January 6, 2003 01:54:18 PM new
TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR BORILLAR -
some go on to really offend and that is the fault of those who have attitudes like junquemama's and twinsoft's.
Pedophiles, themselves, are the ONLY ones who are responsible for their actions.
posted on January 6, 2003 01:58:32 PM new
Nice spin..The truth comes out on pedophilia,and I am the "bad egg"who will cause everyone to lose their reading rights.
You call it my theory,and I can cut and paste case historys here all day.
You call me ignorant, for knowing there arent
"any" cured pedophiles,and in the same breath,say :
Rather, with treatment and over time with a willing patient, progress can be made so that the mental illness is controllable. Those that are unwilling or do not respond to treeatment for any reason and are a harm to society should be incarcerated. I have said this before.
Show some names then of the willing who choose treatment.Hell....Show any treatment.
posted on January 6, 2003 02:00:01 PM new
>Pedophiles, themselves, are the ONLY ones who are responsible for their actions.
Of course they are, Linda. I'm so happy that you agree with me. Therefore, since they are totally responsible for themselves and their actions, then you won't mind their NAMBLA book being made available, as it's just a book and it's not responsible for anything by itself. It's so good to know that we see eye-to-eye on this, Linda!
posted on January 6, 2003 02:02:28 PM new
WOW Linda is typing in all caps lol.
Pedophilia is a chronic problem. Nothing other than medical treatment can control it. Just think, if heterosexual behavior was so disgusting to the society in which you live. How would you feel Linda if everyone, with the exception of a clinic in Baltimore, thought of you as an evil monster? I'm sure that there are other medical clinics but few pedophiles have access to them. It's a horrible problem.
And some of the nicest people that you know may have this problem.
posted on January 6, 2003 02:10:11 PM new
Yes, junquemama, just consider who's spewing that trash. Then ignore it.
Borillar - What is this 'book' you keep referring to?
This case is about a 10 year old boy who was molested by a member of NAMBLA. His parents are suing NAMBLA because the sicko is the one who stated he'd been reading this trash and felt more comfortable that he wasn't alone in is thoughts and feelings so he proceed to act. Nice support group for breaking the law.
The family has filed charges and the ACLU is defending this sicko calling it a 'free speech' issue. It's not....it's just like any other hate crime issue. You only have rights to take your free speech to certain levels. You sure don't when your speech incites another to harm anyone. If I'm in the street and see a gay person, or a black person and I start saying things that cause others to hurt them, I can be held responsible for my actions. Free speech or no free speech issue. Same thing here.
You went nuts over what Lott said. That was his 'free speech' right. Just as it is this groups to spread the case of molesting children. But they too will have to deal with the 'cost' of enjoying their free speech.
posted on January 6, 2003 02:12:12 PM new
To discern fantasy from reality,Is to stop useing "what if's" and use the cold fact of what is.I have no interest in what might have happened,Im talking about what is happening,comprendee?
posted on January 6, 2003 02:21:31 PM new
And you base this on one case history of
abused and emotionally ill children.That one case doesnt give you expert status.
posted on January 6, 2003 02:36:24 PM new
junquemama, I've never heard of nambla. Now that I have, I think it's disgusting, BUT, wanting the government to intervene is only another opportunity for your freedoms to be controlled by them instead of yourself. Can't people just make their own minds up as to what they want to read?
posted on January 6, 2003 02:36:39 PM new
Helen, are you saying that comitting sexual crimes are the result of mental illness? So the man who goes out and rapes women is "mentally disordered"? Isn't that the same thing as saying they just couldn't help themselves rather than doing something they know is wrong, and against the law? California had a "mentally disordered sex offender" program at one time. At the time, it was thought that these rapists could be "cured" if only they had psychotherapy treatment. It was discontinued because it was proven through the recidivism rate, that treating sexual offenders as "mentally disordered" did nothing to "cure" them. They just went right out and raped again. We're not talking about people who can't discern between right and wrong, legal and illegal. These are people who put their own sadistic needs and sick urges over the knowledge that what they are doing is wrong and criminal. In a nutshell, they simply don't care. And for Borillar to come in with his unique brand of moral relativism excusing such depraved acts...well...I'm truly sickened. Junquemama, you have him pegged!
posted on January 6, 2003 02:47:36 PM new
Krafty,This has nothing to do with books and any reading rights.Borillar and I are finishing a conversation from months ago.
Where did I say that, KatyD? I did not say that pedophilia is a mental illness. According to the latest news from the most prominent treatment center in Baltimore, Johns Hopkins, the problem has not been identified as a disease but rather as a chronic problem. Just as an individual may be called a chronic heterosexual, a pedophile is a chronic pedophile. Either one may commit a crime which may be related to their sexual preference.
There are sadistic, sick heterosexual individuals just as there are sadistic, sick pedophiles. There are also very good people who are heterosexual or pedophilic.
Simply the fact that you are a pedophile does not indicate that you are a monster with no redeeming characteristics.
Borillar has just expressed what doctors at Johns Hopkins are expressing.
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Jan 6, 2003 02:56 PM ]
posted on January 6, 2003 02:50:56 PM new
>that is the fault of those who have attitudes like junquemama's and twinsoft's.
You are right and I do apologize. What I meant to say was "that it is the fault of the attitudes as expressed by junquemama's and twinsoft's. Clearly, junquemama's and twinsoft's attitude of "Kill'm on sight!" is shared by many and I suggest that it acts as a deterrent to some of those who might otherwise get treated for their illness.
posted on January 6, 2003 02:51:28 PM newBUT, wanting the government to intervene is only another opportunity for your freedoms to be controlled by them instead of yourself. Can't people just make their own minds up as to what they want to read?
My freedom IS being threatened by a group who advocates adult/child sex. It is criminal, illegal and immoral. Period. And the ONLY people who would choose to read such literature encouraging such behavior are those who are interested in participating in that behavior. Why should advocating comitting crimes, be considered "free speech"? That just throws me.
