posted on January 6, 2003 12:19:13 PM new
That mad man with the funny hair in N. Korea is push push pushing here and there against a man in DC who looks at everything as personal - I will decide this - I will do that. It's a personal slap in the face not abstract politics.
Neither of them have much ability to relate to reality and between the two of them they will finally pick and push until somebody pushs too hard and the Korean peninsula goes up in fire with a couple million deaths.
If he can't conduct a conventional war there at the same time as Iraq he can sure conduct a nuclear one.
The very worst that might happen is that the Japanese might be pulled in. If they don't have nuclear weapons I have no doubt that the Japanese with some of the worlds most advanced technology could surprise most of the world with what they have secretly squirreled away in case they do have to seriously defend themselves.
I give it a month.
posted on January 6, 2003 12:55:05 PM new
gravid - Trying to be clear on your position here. Are you saying that you believe that although NK has broken their agreement with the Clinton administration and with the UN that we should continue to send oil and food to them. AND that you agree that they should be allowed to proceed with their developement of NAs?
I think I'm getting the picture. North Korea breaks all its nuclear agreements with the United States, throws out UN inspectors and sets off to make a bomb a year, and President Bush says it's "a diplomatic issue". Iraq hands over a 12,000-page account of its weapons production and allows UN inspectors to roam all over the country, and – after they've found not a jam-jar of dangerous chemicals in 230 raids – President Bush announces that Iraq is a threat to America, has not disarmed and may have to be invaded. So that's it, then.
posted on January 6, 2003 01:06:52 PM new
from the same article...
"Meanwhile, we are – on that very basis – ploughing on to war in Iraq, which has oil, but avoiding war in Korea, which does not have oil. And our leaders are getting away with it. In doing so, we are threatening the innocent, torturing our prisoners and "learning" from men who should be in the dock for war crimes. This, then, is our true memorial to the men and women so cruelly murdered in the crimes against humanity of 11 September 2001."
posted on January 6, 2003 01:10:55 PM new
I'm saying I think a lot of people will fight and die when the whole thing could be decided by both men stepping up the the Secretary General - handing him a ruler and dropping their pants.
posted on January 6, 2003 01:19:15 PM new
Too true, unfortunately. This problem with North Korea would take the diplomatic skills of President Clinton to solve. Yet we are left with nothing but a diplomatic blunderer whose foreign policy is dealt out at the end of a large barbed-wired enhanced stick.
posted on January 6, 2003 01:19:56 PM new
If I have this right, you think they're both acting like children.
Put in on a personal level. I've read your posts enough to judge you don't take much from people who try to push you around. Why should Bush be any different? Is he not human?
You don't find it odd that the leader of NK decides at this time to 'fess up' with what they've been doing all along? I do. They made an agreement that if we continued to provide food and fuel and help them develope alternative energy sources, they'll not develope Nuclear weapons....but do so anyway?
And if someone stabbed you in the back this way, you wouldn't be at all upset? I don't buy that [if that is the case].
We've withdrawn the fuel and Bush has taken the position that there's nothing further to talk about until they return to the original agreement. I sure don't see a problem with that. We're always blamed for interfering in everybodies business. Let's sit back and wait a while to see if this same problem upsets any other nations.
posted on January 6, 2003 01:26:10 PM new
...the diplomatic skills of President Clinton to solve.
Excuse me while I pull myself off of the floor from laughter. You appear to be forgetting something, Borillar. The fact that the US, by Clinton's decision, WAS paying them blackmail [oil, food, energy development] NOT to develop these weapons. So while many will agree that Clinton might have better diplomatic skills than Bush does, didn't solve the problem did it? Why? Because he accepted our offer and then proceed to do it anyway. The result is what's important, not how well one can work out deals that don't work.
[ edited by Linda_K on Jan 6, 2003 01:32 PM ]
posted on January 6, 2003 01:29:58 PM new
Well, you don't have to think too long to know that it will affect China, when the immigrants from North Korea begin to cross the border in order to survive. and it will affect South Korea because there is an affiliation between North and South Korea. Don't forget that we have 40,000 troops on the border. And, it will affect Japan.
Bush is such a dork. He cuts his nose off to spite his face daily.
posted on January 6, 2003 02:21:56 PM new
The two situations are completely different. Iraq is a wealthy nation and as such can circumvent sanctions and continue on unimpeded while it stalls and does not comply with what is required. There is not much more pressure other than military force that can be applied.
N. Korea is destitute, another failed socialist experiment. They have nothing but threats or extortion to use to prevent collapse. The "wells" from their benefactors have dried up. They are easy to isolate. There is no way we can tolerate such a wacky regime with weapons that can reach Alaska or even Japan for that matter.
posted on January 6, 2003 02:31:33 PM new
By doing nothing, George is tolerating them.
" North Korea has over 300 Nodong-x missiles, which can reach Japan and Okinawa. It has a thousand Scud-B/C missiles, capable of hitting South Korea. Most worrisome for Bush and Clan, it has Taepodong-x ICBMs, which can reach all the way across the Pacific and hit Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, and even Chicago."
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
"Not to worry, though. Intrepid Donald Rumsfeld to the rescue. The prickly Secretary of Defense confidently told the world earlier this week the US can wage two wars at once, no problem. "We are capable of winning decisively in one, and swiftly defeating in the case of the other," he insisted. "Let there be no doubt about it."
And all North korea wants is to negotiate with the United States.
posted on January 6, 2003 02:46:13 PM new
You are right - I don't push around worth a damn.
But I don't blunder into a fight because I think so much of myself that I can't imaigine somebody really testing me.
And I am not risking anything but my worthless fat butt.
If I had to deal with the N. Koreans it would be resolved one way or another in about 3 days.
I would either give tham 24 hours to publicly kiss butt and apologize in great face losing form or nuke anything I even suspected could harbor a nuke or a way to build one. Them we'd see how hungery the Korean people would get this winter before they had the little creep on a spit.
An alternative would be to say - forget it if you think nuclear non-proliferation is such a bad idea - we're leaving this side of the Pacific Rim but we're giving the S. Koreans and the Japanese each 600 nukes when we go.
Let them deal with that....
I think their leader is secretly the pointy haired boss in Dilbert with a bad haircut.
posted on January 6, 2003 03:09:27 PM new
Throughout history good people have stood back and rationalized things in the face of danger only to be paralyzed into a "hope it goes away" passivity.
IT NEVER GOES AWAY.
Why did the Japanese kill tens of millions in WWII? Because they thought we were soft and after they hurt us we would acquiesce and they would just take what they wanted. It's a simple as that. How much thought do you think was involved in this killing?
negotiate?? I thought we did that years ago and had a deal?? Hmmm. I see the N Korean announcements now have the UN in a tizzy also. I guess all of those Asian 3 world countries are a little upset.
posted on January 6, 2003 04:11:32 PM new
So when President Bush objects to the spread of nuclear terriorist, he's a bully. But what happens when the U.N comes along and agrees with him?
U.N. Nuke Agency Warns N.Korea to Comply Email this Story
Jan 6, 5:02 PM (ET)
By GEORGE JAHN
(AP) Mohamed ElBaradei, director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), speaks to... Full Image
VIENNA, Austria (AP) - Opting for compromise but warning of confrontation, the U.N. nuclear agency on Monday demanded that North Korea abandon its atomic weapons program voluntarily or face escalated pressure from the Security Council.
The International Atomic Energy Agency's 35-nation board, which includes the United States, Russia and China, agreed to censure the North for reactivating suspect nuclear programs and eliminating agency controls meant to ensure that materials are not being used to make atomic weapons.
It stopped short of the next step - reporting North Korea in breach of its international nuclear obligations to the Security Council, a move that could open the way to sanctions on the renegade communist country.
But the resolution warned the North would be declared in "further noncompliance" of international obligations unless it lets the IAEA reimpose monitoring of its nuclear activities. North Korea expelled the agency's inspectors last week.
Mohamed ElBaradei, the agency's director-general, told reporters any declaration of "further noncompliance ... means under our statutes (automatically) reporting the matter to the Security Council."
Diplomats at the meeting, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the board decision was dictated in part by concern that an escalation could force North Korea, which is suspected of possessing nuclear weapons, over the brink.
Although the IAEA warned beforehand that it was taking a "zero tolerance" approach toward the crisis, its resolution did not explicitly set a deadline for Pyongyang to comply. But a senior U.S. diplomat said the urgency of the language used in the document that the North had no more than a "few weeks" to comply.
The resolution, using the acronym for the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, used strong diplomatic language to make that point. It "deplores in the strongest terms the DPRK's unilateral acts to remove and impede the functioning of containment and surveillance equipment at its nuclear facilities."
The North's decision to expel the IAEA inspectors "renders the agency unable to verify ... that there has been no diversion of nuclear material," the resolution said. It called for an immediate meeting between the North Korean leadership and the agency.
In Washington, the Bush administration reacted positively to the resolution.
"The president views this as the appropriate course of action," said Ari Fleischer, spokesman for U.S. President George W. Bush. "The nations involved in this decision today are very broad. ... It takes a lot of work to get condemned by Iran and Cuba and North Korea has done it."
ElBaradei warned North Korea to comply, saying the latest events "further aggravate the situation."
"North Korea has to come clean," ElBaradei said. "There are two options for North Korea: Comply with your international obligations ... or continue defiance that will escalate into a crisis situation and go to the Security Council."
Monday's closed-door meeting came amid new diplomatic efforts to ease the standoff.
High-level delegations from South Korea and Japan brought their concerns over North Korea's nuclear program to the Bush administration on Monday in Washington and were assured the United States would "work shoulder to shoulder" with them to ease the crisis.
"We view this as an issue that we need to work together on, and work shoulder to shoulder on," Fleischer said.
The two Asian U.S. allies would be vulnerable to North Korean missiles and are seeking a diplomatic solution before Pyongyang adds to the two atom bombs it is believed to possess.
South Korea also pressed Russia - one of North Korea's few allies - to help persuade the North to back down, and Moscow agreed to step up its contacts with Pyongyang. Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said Monday that Russia wants stability on the Korean peninsula and called for "quiet diplomacy" to defuse tensions.
North Korea, stung by an energy crisis, insists it needs the power. The United States says the 5-megawatt reactor in question would produce a mere trickle of electricity and could be used to produce nuclear weapons.
The Vienna-based IAEA had maintained two inspectors in North Korea from 1992 until New Year's Eve, when they left after the North said they were no longer welcome.
Last week's expulsions came after the North removed IAEA seals and surveillance cameras from its nuclear complex at Yongbyon, north of Pyongyang, the capital.
Although he denounced North Korea for its "nuclear brinkmanship," ElBaradei said the country should be given one more chance to pull back.
If North Korea does step back from the brink, "then all the doors will be open," including negotiations on security and meeting the impoverished country's energy and food needs, ElBaradei said.
posted on January 6, 2003 11:05:38 PM new
Who is so dumb as to deride Clinton with:
"Excuse me while I pull myself off of the floor from laughter. You appear to be forgetting something, Borillar. The fact that the US, by Clinton's decision, WAS paying them blackmail [oil, food, energy development] NOT to develop these weapons. So while many will agree that Clinton might have better diplomatic skills than Bush does, didn't solve the problem did it? Why? Because he accepted our offer and then proceed to do it anyway. The result is what's important, not how well one can work out deals that don't work."
while championing bush for:
"Bush has taken the position that there's nothing further to talk about until they return to the [Clinton's] original agreement. I sure don't see a problem with that"
posted on January 7, 2003 04:44:14 AM new
Prez says:
"We have no intention of invading North Korea," President Bush told reporters in the White House.
Sure - All the troops are in Iraq and N. Korea will be too radioactive to send them there anyway.
I agree Clinton was such a smooth talker he wouldn't need a pistol to rob you - he'd just make it seem reasonable you should give him your wallet.
But as in the case of the Palestinians and Israelis they go home and in a few weeks if Daddy Bill is not there to make them play nice they start fighting again.
If we could just ship him out to the trouble spot as a permenant caretaker it would work while he is alive but it doesn't seem to be a permenant solution unless he can teach what he probably does as a natural talant without thinking.
Q Ari, many people are wondering why we keep 37,000 U.S. troops in South Korea where they've been for 50 years, and where South Koreans are reportedly demonstrating with placards reading "American troops out." And my question: Has the President given any consideration of transferring these troops elsewhere, rather than allowing the possibility of them being taken prisoner by a surprise attack by the 1 million-man North Korean army, possibly using nuclear weapons?
MR. FLEISCHER: Nothing like that has crossed my radar screen, that's been brought to my attention by anybody inside the White House. Obviously, there's a growing debate in print about this topic.
Q Reuters reports a senior administration official, who didn't' want to be identified, saying that "we intend to continue supplying food to North Korea, even though that government is spending its money on nuclear development rather than food. And my question: Does the President, or do you remember any incident in World War II that our planes dropped food on either Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan?
MR. FLEISCHER: Let me tell you what our position is vis-a-vis food and North Korea. The United States does not condition food aid on political or security issues. We intend food aid to be viewed and seen and received as a humanitarian gesture of the people of the United States around the world. We intend to be responsive to the world food program's appeal for North Korea, as we have in past years. We still have concerns regarding monitoring and access in North Korea that need to be addresses. It remains very important for North Korea to make certain that the people who need the food receive the food.
Q Did you recall any instance where we did this over Germany or Japan in the second world war?
MR. FLEISCHER: I wasn't alive then, Lester. So check --
Q But you have a good memory.
MR. FLEISCHER: How can you have a memory if you weren't alive back then?
posted on January 7, 2003 02:17:10 PM new
gravid - Now...that's the gravid I remember I would either give tham 24 hours to publicly kiss butt and apologize in great face losing form or nuke anything I even suspected could harbor a nuke or a way to build one. Them we'd see how hungery the Korean people would get this winter before they had the little creep on a spit. AND the gravid with the great sense of humor...Mad man with the funny hair...pointy haired boss in Dilbert with a bad haircut.
__________________
I'm against continuing the food aid to NK. Surprise, surprise.
posted on January 7, 2003 09:04:03 PM new
Well for half a century the US has been doing nothing to resolve the problems in Korea. They have been simply putting off the terrible day it will be solved as long as possible. And it will be worse the longer they wait.
Dreaming that the government in the North will eventually luck upon a leader who doesn't need heavy medication is a dream. They have a system just like we do here that consistantly delivers up leaders within a certain basic set of qualities. None of which you would accept in a pet sitter for one evening.
If they wait long enough maybe the US will lose a few west coast cities to close it out.
posted on January 7, 2003 09:25:29 PM new
When Bush included North Korea on the axis of evil and began plans for preemtive strikes on Afghanistan and Iraq, he gave Kim Jong every incentive to develop his artillary of nuclear weapons.
"I'm the commander," Bush told Woodward, in the context of cabinet meetings. "See, I don't need to explain-I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the President. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."
He owes the American people an explanation, and he'll owe the world an explanation if his reckless speech precipitates a war on the Korean peninsula, or his reckless action in Iraq brings catastrophe.
posted on January 7, 2003 11:32:22 PM new
Helen, (surprise) I agree with you on this one. I don't see any harm in talking to N. Korea. The situation is turning into a nuclear-scale game of chicken.
However, as Commander-In-Chief, as a military leader, Bush doesn't owe anyone an explanation. It seems he has made it clear at this point that he expects Russia, Japan and S. Korea to deal with the problem.
If all N. Korea wants is a non-agression treaty, give it to them. Based on some conditions, of course. You can bet if Clinton was prez, he wouldn't be doing this stupid posturing.
More than 46 years of fragile peace have marked the history of "post-war" Korea, where the longest armistice ever remains tenuously in force. For most of these years, the directing headquarters was the United Nations Command (UNC), which had also directed combat operations in the 1950-53 war.
The defense structure in Korea was eventually overtaken by the professional growth and development of the Republic of Korea’s (ROK) armed forces. As early as 1965 it was recognized that what worked in the war could be significantly improved by increasing ROK participation in the planning structure.
A combined operational planning staff, developed in 1968 as an adjunct to United Nations Command/United States Forces Korea/ Eighth United States Army Headquarters and the U.S.-led ‘I’ Corps (Group), evolved in 1971 as an integrated field army headquarters. However, it was not until 1978, as a bilateral agreement related to the planned U.S. ground combat force withdrawal of that time (subsequently canceled in 1981), that the senior headquarters in Korea was organized, as a combined staff.
Hostilities today are deterred by this binational defense team that evolved from the multi-national UNC. Established on November 7, 1978, the ROK/U.S. Combined Forces Command (CFC) is the warfighting headquarters. Its role is to deter, or defeat if necessary, outside aggression against the ROK.
To accomplish that mission, the CFC has operational control over more than 600,000 active-duty military personnel of all services, of both countries. In wartime, augmentation could include some 3.5 million ROK reservists as well as additional U.S. forces deployed from outside the ROK. If North Korea attacked, the CFC would provide a coordinated defense through its Air, Ground, Naval and Combined Marine Forces Component Commands and the Combined Unconventional Warfare Task Force. In-country and augmentation U.S. forces would be provided to the CFC for employment by the respective combat component.
The CFC is commanded by a four-star U.S. general, with a four-star ROK Army general as deputy commander. Throughout the command structure, binational manning is readily apparent: if the chief of a staff section is Korean, the deputy is American and vice versa. This integrated structure exists within the component commands as well as the headquarters. All CFC components are tactically integrated through continuous combined and joint planning, training and exercises.
The major field training exercise was the Team Spirit series that began in 1976 and grew to nearly 200,000 ROK and U.S. participants commensurate with increased perceptions of the North Korean threat. U.S. participation in the exercise included augmentation forces of all services tactically deployed to the ROK from other Pacific bases and the continental United States. This exercise was last held in 1993.
Separate ROK and U.S. command post exercises were combined as Ulchi Focus Lens (UFL) in 1976. UFL is an annual joint and combined simulation-supported command post exercise that trains Combined Forces Command personnel and major component, subordinate and augmenting staffs using state-of-the-art wargaming computer simulations and support infrastructures.
At the unit level, frequent no-notice alerts, musters, and operational readiness inspections insure combat preparedness for ROK and U.S. forces. Both countries are pursuing ambitious modernization programs to maintain a viable ROK/U.S. military posture that will convince North Korea that any form of aggression or adventurism will fail. The ROK is making strides in equipment improvement through a rapidly expanding domestic defense industry, as well as purchases from foreign sources. U.S. efforts toward modernization include newer, more powerful weapon systems, greater mobility and helicopter lift capability, and vastly increased anti-armor capability.
In summary, the Combined Forces Command reflects the mutual commitment of the Republic of Korea and the United States to maintain peace and security, and the willingness and capability to take that commitment into battle, if the need arises.
This was taken from the U.S Forces Korea Home Page. http://www.korea.army.mil/index1.htm
posted on January 8, 2003 06:30:52 AM new
These official sorts just like to hear themselves drone on and on don't they?
Summery of above:
After 50 years the only thing still holding the North Koreans back is the US being there. We have just enough troops on the line that we are sure they know it will piss us off if they roll over them. The South Koreans are still #2 in the command tree all the way down no matter how many of them there are, and we train with them so they won't shoot each others butts off instead of the enemy. But the only thing making it hold is they know up North they will become the worlds biggest hold parking lot for Toyotas after we pound it flat if they push us too hard.
There is an increasing danger of a nuclear war on the Korean Peninsula due to the US criminal policy towards the DPRK [Democratic People's Republic of Korea].
The US is deliberately spreading a false rumour about the DPRK's ''nuclear issue'' in particular, in a bid to vitiate the atmosphere of inter-Korean reconciliation and unity and foster confrontation among Koreans.
The US has stood in the way of Korean reunification for more than half a century after occupying South Korea by force.
It is impossible to carry out the urgent task of the nation to avert a war and defend peace on the Korean Peninsula unless the moves of the US to perpetuate Korean division and sow the seeds of discord among the Koreans are thoroughly frustrated.
Reconciliation
An atmosphere of reconciliation, unity and reunification between the North and the South is now running higher than ever before in the wake of the publication of the historic 15 June North-South joint declaration.
Therefore there is neither a reason nor conditions for the Koreans to stand in confrontation, escalate the tensions and harass peace on the Korean Peninsula.
The joint New Year editorial of newspapers Rodong Sinmun, Josoninmingun and Chongnyonjonwi issued on the occasion of the New Year, 2003, said that there exists only confrontation between the Korean nation in the North and the South and the US at present.
'US racket'
The ''nuclear issue'' that renders the situation on the Korean Peninsula strained, is a product of the US strategy to dominate the world whereby it is working hard to bring the holocaust of nuclear war to the Korean nation, calling for a pre-emptive nuclear strike after deploying lots of nuclear weapons in and around South Korea.
It is plain to everyone that if a nuclear war breaks out in Korea it will bring catastrophic disasters to the Koreans in both parts of Korea.
They should, therefore, pool their efforts and condemn and frustrate the US nuclear policy for aggression and its racket of a nuclear threat so as to find a fundamental solution to the nuclear issue.
All the Koreans in the North and the South and abroad should have a correct understanding of the structure of confrontation on the Korean Peninsula, remain vigilant against the US imperialists' reckless moves for a war and deal deadly blows to the Yankees by their concerted efforts.
BBC Monitoring, based in Caversham in southern England, selects and translates information from radio, television, press, news agencies and the Internet from 150 countries in more than 70 languages.
posted on January 8, 2003 06:48:04 AM new
I always love these type of arguments....he gave Kim Jong every incentive to develop his artillary of nuclear weapons. Kind of reminds me of the wife-beater who claims the wife's actions made him do it.
[ edited by Linda_K on Jan 8, 2003 06:51 AM ]
posted on January 8, 2003 07:21:08 AM new
In all things in life, Helen, each person is responsibile for their own actions. Can't use the excuse....'they made me do it'. There are always other ways to react to anything anyone does. Wife beaters choose to blame their lack of self control on their victim.
_____________________
Ending two days of consultations in Washington with Japan and South Korea, the United States said Tuesday it is willing to talk to North Korea but will not make concessions to freeze Pyongyang's nuclear programs.
In a joint statement, the allies endorsed solving the dispute through dialogue.
The European Union, in a statement released late Tuesday in Greece, said it "strongly urges" North Korea "to refrain from any further escalation and to dismantle immediately any nuclear weapons program in a visible and verifiable manner."
South Korea wrote off the North's attempts to divide the allies as propaganda.
I would either give tham 24 hours to publicly kiss butt and apologize in great face losing form or nuke anything I even suspected could harbor a nuke or a way to build one. Them we'd see how hungery the Korean people would get this winter before they had the little creep on a spit. AND the gravid with the great sense of humor...Mad man with the funny hair...pointy haired boss in Dilbert with a bad haircut. 