posted on January 6, 2003 03:05:00 PM new
Katy, the worst garbage imaginable is available over the internet. How to make bombs, how to have sex with animals, how to poison people, etc. Morally, I think it's very wrong but I don't think there should be laws made to prevent anything from being published. People have to make their own decisions about what's right and wrong instead of asking the government to step in all the time - just my opinion. (I've said it before... I think criminal pedophiles should be castrated.)
posted on January 6, 2003 03:09:55 PM new
Borillar,when and if I get to a point of
"Kill'm on sight" It wont be because they are seeking help.It will be to save a child in harms way if I catch a molester in the act.But you know this,It just sounds better when you spin it.
posted on January 6, 2003 03:23:35 PM new
Junquemama...
Kraftdinner, if people are going to "make their own decisions about what's right and what's wrong" why have laws at all? Basically you have a group of people telling interested freaks that "it's okay" and "it's not wrong" and advocating breaking the law. Just what these freaks want to hear. Next thing you know, Nambla will be in our schools to "educate" our kids about their "alternative lifestyle". No thank you. No room for moral relativism here. Yes, it absolutely should be illegal for any bunch of perverts to publish literature on how to molest MY kid.
posted on January 6, 2003 03:36:51 PM new
Borillar,You said:
It is better to get these sorts of ideas out of the closet and into the open air and into the public to discuss it in the open air, rather than trying to suppress it where it will just fester. Better to have it around as an educational lesson than to try to silence their voice, because that ALWAYS backfires and makes it worse (see Mien Kemphf circa late 1920's - early 1930's)
posted on January 6, 2003 04:25:08 PM new
If the free speech of NAMBLA(a real sick organization) is to be curtailed...
THEN
The free speech of Anti-Abortionists is to be also curtailed....
The Websites that list the names and addresses of doctors and worker...targeting them for righteous sickos with a bomb or gun...
The groups that gather outside the clinics and harass and threaten the doctors, workers and patients...
The groups that mark the properties of the doctor with protest signs, pointing them out for the sickos to eliminate them...
ALL FOR DOING SOMETHING THAT IS PRESENTLY LEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY!!!!
Yeah, cancel the free speech of NAMBLA, but also of all the other groups that advocate horrible ideas and violence. Then after that, we'll go after those that really upset us, then those that annoy us, then those that disagree with us.....
The True Democracy of this great nation can only flourish when everyone has been SILENCED!!!!
I sure as heck do not agree with them, but I will like heck defend their right to say it.
.................................................
We call them our heroes...but we pay them like chumps
posted on January 6, 2003 04:29:28 PM new
You're reaching, mlecher. Not the same thing. Publishing the names of doctors who perform abortions is not the same thing as advocating killing those doctors, which is a crime. Demonstrating peacefully as a group to change a law is NOT a crime. Advocating killing the medical personnel who lawfully perform abortions IS. You're comparing apples to oranges. It's not about "free speech". It's about advocating criminal behavior.
posted on January 6, 2003 04:32:48 PM newbut I will like heck defend their right to say it.
You need to THINK before you defend people who want to legalize child molestation. People do not have the "right" to encourage others to break the law that protects those unable to protect themselves. Don't know if you have kids, but I suspect if you do, you wouldn't want to defend the "rights" of people who are advocating molesting YOUR child. THINK.
posted on January 6, 2003 04:37:21 PM new
In your own little world...tell me where advocating murder of doctors is good, and sex with children bad...
Even the courts have agreed with me. Only those in YOUR woods can't see the forest for the trees....
Maybe you are the only one in the world who are still in denial what those lists are....hits lists....with the rewards of the admiration of all the slime the frequent those sites.
.................................................
We call them our heroes...but we pay them like chumps
[ edited by mlecher on Jan 6, 2003 04:40 PM ]
posted on January 6, 2003 04:48:20 PM new
Advocating the murder of ANYONE is wrong. I never said advocating the murder of doctors is "good". I know what those "lists" are. BUT they do not specifically call for the murder of those doctors listed on them. I personally do not agree that they should be posted. The law says otherwise, as long as they are not being singled out for a murder "contract". That is a far cry from openly and specifically advocating and encouraging sex between adults and children.
posted on January 6, 2003 04:48:48 PM newYou need to THINK before you defend people who want to legalize child molestation
I do not have to think about it. It is my duty as an American. If I want to be heard, I have to protect his right to be heard also. There are alot of things that are illegal in this country. Should NORML be silenced? Abortion is legal, therefore anti-abortionists should be silenced. Everyone who has a differnet opinion be silenced.
ACCORDING TO YOUR RULES!
Remember, you can be silenced as easy as your oppostion.
.................................................
We call them our heroes...but we pay them like chumps
posted on January 6, 2003 04:52:13 PM new
Put any spin on it you want to. If you think it's okay to have some freak tell another freak it's okay to molest YOUR child, I feel sorry for your kids. But you don't have any to worry about, do you?
posted on January 6, 2003 04:55:14 PM new
You know Mlecher, "free speech" is not really the right to say anything you want. You can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater because you feel like it. Someone could get hurt. There's a law against it BECAUSE someone could get hurt. "Free Speech" does not allow anyone to advocate harm to another human being. You need to take another class in high school civics.
posted on January 6, 2003 10:21:55 PM new
Sorry to leave in the middle of such a fine conversation, but business called.
Mlecher hit upon the point quite nicely. I thought about what Linda said earlier [posted on January 6, 2003 02:10:11 PM ] "This case is about a 10 year old boy who was molested by a member of NAMBLA. His parents are suing NAMBLA because the sicko is the one who stated he'd been reading this trash and felt more comfortable that he wasn't alone in is thoughts and feelings so he proceed to act. Nice support group for breaking the law."
If we are to get rid of NAMBLA's manual because it advocate's child molestation and sexual contact between an adult and a child, then we should get rid of all sorts of books like that. Right? Makes sense, doesn't it? If there are other NAMBLA type manuals, you have to get rid of them as well because you never know what sort of sicko is going to get encouraged by it. Right? You can't say WRONG, but that would make you a hypocrite. It's either all of those NAMBLA manuals or none at all!
Now that we've taken care of that little problem in our society, let's see what other "do-gooding" we can do to stop violence, murder, mayhem, and so forth ~ all admittedly undesirable. Right? We want to start with NAMBLA type books, because it is so easy to see black and white in these things ~ right? We want to start by getting rid of the books most likely to get someone to rape, kill, torture, or child molest, etc.
Looking at cases and strictly by the numbers, the book that causes lunatics to go commit crimes is the Christian Holy Bible.
No other book has been the inspiration and source of mayhem in the history of Humankind. How often do people become Christian, read the Bible, then go out and shoot and kill doctors? How often do they plead in court that they were doing "God's Will by punishing those whom God Hates" or "those who break God's Rules"? Just L@@K at the Old Testament alone: Murders, condoned by God; Laws given by God to the Jews to Kill, Torture, Harm those that break God's Laws. The Bible is chock FULL TO THE BRIM with Violent Content URGING FOLLOWERS to do the same!
Certainly, the Bible will have to go! Linda - you do the honors by throwing the Bibles into a pile. Twinsoft, you go ahead and pour gasoline over them, and of course, junquemama - you go ahead and set them to the torch!
Now, once we have the Bible gone, then we can start on a long, long list of other "offending" books that encourage all sorts of illegal acts! Remember: blame the Book for the acts of the followers, not the other way around! If you can blame NAMBLA's manual for the acts of child rapists, then you -MUST- blame the Bible for the acts of followers who commit crimes in the name of God. Otherwise, you are nothing more than a driveling, drooling Hypocrit!
posted on January 6, 2003 10:26:50 PM new
>You know Mlecher, "free speech" is not really the right to say anything you want. You can't yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater because you feel like it. Someone could get hurt. There's a law against it BECAUSE someone could get hurt. "Free Speech" does not allow anyone to advocate harm to another human being. You need to take another class in high school civics.
>KatyD
Baloney! See the post above where I talk about the Bible. In there, it advocates MURDER, ARSON, TORTURE, MAIMING, MUTILATION, and a gross and horrific set of earthly punishments! And if you are a follower, you have to believe in them too! People like Pat Robertson and so forth have stated that they want to see stoning and "other biblical forms of punishment" come back into favor. If the Bible can exist, urging its religious followers to do all of that mayhem, then there are different limits set upon books and other printed materials than standing inside of a theater and yelling FIRE!
A few of the 13,600 hits on "pedophilia treatment" in yahoo search.
"And the ONLY people who would choose to read such literature encouraging such behavior are those who are interested in participating in that behavior"
So...you've read the site and thereby fit your definition, or......you have not read the site and thereby don't know what you're talking about.
posted on January 6, 2003 11:24:56 PM new
Whether pedophilia is a mental illness, or a crime of choice, is irrelevant. Pedophiles must be removed from society to prevent harm to children. Of course pedophiles should receive treatment, just as criminal offenders should receive rehabilitation. Whether they do or not, may largely be a matter of financial ability.
Since I haven't read NAMBLA's manual, I can't comment on what it says, or whether it incites to commit a crime. I tend to believe that freedom of speech should be cherished. That includes opinions on why man/boy love is acceptable, the wherefores, and even perhaps the hows. After all, even criminals have a right to their opinion.
However, the minute the issue moves from editorializing to actually abusing a child, then God help the offender, IMO. Ellie Nessler was right.
posted on January 6, 2003 11:47:08 PM new
I have always agreed with that, twinsoft. I have always said that those who are a danger to society need to be incarcerated, not let them out onto the streets as they are. That's only common sense.
Certainly, they need treatment, if treatment is even available. The part about getting these offenders to simply hold back their urges doesn't impress me in the least, since if they had that sort of control they wouldn't be the trouble that they are in.
It is barbaric for anyone to suggest that we mistreat the mentally ill. Even if they are like the coulle portrayed in the movie Natural Born Killers, we can not as a civilized society beat the crap out of them in anger orkill them on sight for their mental illness.
If I had my way, I'd have several books banned from print in the world. Although I am not Jewish by any means, I would first eradicate that book, "The Protocals of the Eldars od Zion", a work that has led to the killing of millions of Jews. Pure evil. My list contains other books whose sole purpose is to lie and defame and smear some others or organization ~ particularily those who are trying to do good and the book pictures them as evil. I would also throw out NAMBLA's book, as no matter how pedophilia has been accepted in history, we know today just how wrong that it is, how it hurts children psychologically if not physically.
posted on January 7, 2003 04:32:45 AM new
That the same people who are enraged by the details of this issue would find it absurd to blame gun manufacturers for the crimes of gun owners, or to blame a fast food restaurant for a woman's spilling of coffee, or even a tobacco company for the damage to a smoker shows the emotional characteristic of their thinking. Such thinking is irrational and unreliable because of it's reactive nature, typical of woman's lack of reasoning, and because of that should be given little attention.
posted on January 7, 2003 05:57:22 AM newSuch thinking is irrational and unreliable because of it's reactive nature, typical of woman's lack of reasoning, and because of that should be given little attention.
And when did you develop this death wish?!?
.................................................
We call them our heroes...but we pay them like chumps
posted on January 7, 2003 06:39:02 AM newSuch thinking is irrational and unreliable because of it's reactive nature, typical of woman's lack of reasoning, and because of that should be given little attention.
A more accurate statement would be, "typical of some woman's lack of reasoning".
posted on January 7, 2003 08:09:12 AM new
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind. Were an opinion a personal possession of no value except to the owner; if to be obstructed in the enjoyment of it were simply a private injury, it would make some difference whether the injury was inflicted only on a few persons or on many. But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error." -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859
posted on January 7, 2003 09:30:48 AM new
Borillar, You said:
Certainly, the Bible will have to go! Linda - you do the honors by throwing the Bibles into a pile. Twinsoft, you go ahead and pour gasoline over them, and of course, junquemama - you go ahead and set them to the torch
More garbage to confuse the issue. Show where I said any book or site was to be banned.It doesnt matter,I didnt say it,But damn, might as well, No one will notice.
And that is a form of free speech,
The great masses of the people... will more easily fall victims to a big lie than a small one. Adolf Hitler
And the arguements we had in the past over any pedophilia or molesters had nothing to do with banning any sites,same as now.
krs, posted about treatment sites,now you can back your statements with fact, and not flop around like a "fish" out of water.
I am glad there are treatment centers,I hope they all get cured.
That doesnt take away from the fact people need to be aware of other people. And I will protect my own.
[ edited by junquemama on Jan 7, 2003 09:31 AM ]
posted on January 7, 2003 09:33:25 AM new"A more accurate statement would be, "typical of some woman's lack of reasoning"
You're absolutely right, Helen, and your example alone makes it so, for amongst your gender you stand far elevated by your reasoned and calm approach, the precision of your thought, and the wonderful clarity of your expression.
