posted on January 14, 2003 08:16:25 AM newTake abortion. Late term or partial birth abortions are *rare*. And done with cause--a woman can't just decide to have such an abortion.
Bunni...an abortion doctor, who performed late term abortions testified that approx. 80% of these late term abortions were not for medical reasons. He said he performed almost 1000 himself, before stopping the practice. And one must remember, there are a lot of abortions that are preformed that are not in the stats. Some states don't require the numbers be kept, so there is only a 'guess' on the numbers.
posted on January 14, 2003 11:55:03 AM new
Junquemama, you keep wanting to have a rational explanation when there is none. Laws like the anti-Stalking laws and work place sexual harassment do indeed apply to men as well as women, but they are seen by many as being just women's Speical Rights laws. Is that nonsense? Is that rational? Is that adequate? No! But, that is what they think, that is what they want, that is how they have said before that they feel.
Those are just two examples of ridiculous Republicanism. Others include "Special Rights" for Blacks and Minorities (quotas, point systems, Civil Rights Amendment, etc.) and "Special Rights" for homosexuals to make harrassment of their sexual preferences a crime.
posted on January 14, 2003 11:59:27 AM new
Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as a "partial birth" abortion. Just wording has been conjured up to stigmatize the practice of late term abortions.
We could always have this litmus test: Cut the embellical cord on the aborted fetus and doctors try to start normal resperation. If the fetus can't do it on its own, it's a normal abortion. If the fetus begins to thrive ON ITS OWN, then it's Attempted Murder on the part of the mother.
Needless to say, with that sort of an arrangement, there would be few late term abortions.
posted on January 14, 2003 01:08:36 PM newLindaK: I was referring to late term abortions. And those *are* rare (something like 1% of all abortions performed)--and done with cause. Getting an abortion after the first trimester is very hard. An 8 month pregnant woman, for example, can't just up & decide to have an abortion. IIRC, the only time this is allowed with a *healthy* fetus is if carrying the baby to term would endanger the woman's life, and in the cases of young teenagers or mentally retarded women who didn't know they were pregnant until later in the pregnancy. Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on January 14, 2003 03:17:55 PM new
Bunni,Thank you for being Borillars interpreter,However what he said about womens rights being rolled back by "THEY" was not answered.
Borillar stated he didnt have the websites to prove what he was saying,and to look it up.I cannot find the language Borillar used as to his convictions.
Now Borillar says it cant be proven,So then it was hypothetical.I did do some research,to no availe,Maybe a different search engine from what others use.The topics are abortion of course(as always) and the commission by Bush over Title IX,that will meet on the 29th and 30th of Jan.This will be about the proportionality test.
One thing I do know about women,They arent going backwards for anyone...The sky isnt falling just yet.
posted on January 14, 2003 04:41:58 PM new
Bunni - I'm sorry, but your facts are not correct. And I, too, was referring to 'late term' abortions.
[2nd and 3rd trimester] And I know they're available 'on demand', that's exactly why many, like myself, oppose them. [Believe they should ONLY be allowed for complications that would affect the mother's life.] Most do believe they're hard to obtain, but that's not the truth of what happens.
While the % may appear small when compared to the total reported D&Es the D&Xs are climbing in numbers. [D&Es are beginning to show very slight decreases] Some in the industry report D&Xs to be as high as 5,000 a year. And as I said, the one doctor alone reported that 80% are not medically necessary. 5,000 not a large number? Think if a virus were to go through many neonatal hospitals and kill that many viable infants. Those born after 23-25 weeks have survival rates of 25%. And, of course, each week they're allowed to continue growing, their chances increase.
I call it an 'industry' because abortions have become BIG business. Planned parenthood is a business, and while many support them and believe they provide so much for women....what they provide most are abortions.
In CA abortions are allowed up to 22 weeks. The one's who are over that gestional age [the fetus] are/can be sent out to other states where there are doctors that perform these 'late term abortions'. A major HMO in CA performs abortions up to 20 weeks.
I'm saying a lot is kept 'hush - hush' [the very late term abortions - 6th, 7th, 8th month abortions] and the general public just isn't aware.
I wish we [collectively] could end the fight over abortions. I wish all abortions were illegal unless for medical reasons. One of the things I'd like to see is a huge promotion of the 'morning after' pill where a woman could easily go to any pharmacy, no prescription needed, and get two pills to take to prevent conception from occurring. Much more acceptable to me than the way abortions are being used as a form of birth control. AND much more acceptable to me that aborting fetus' that would be able to survive on their own if their mother wasn't choosing to abort them.
I know you [and many] feel there should be no changes to roe vs wade but I disagree. As we are able to save some babies as young as 21 weeks becomes more the 'norm' I just can't accept we allow abortions for any reason other than to save a womans life.
posted on January 14, 2003 10:39:43 PM new
Statistics can say different things, according to who presents them. Anti-abortion sites consistently skew info, if not outright lying about it. The fact is that the number of abortions have actually been dropping, not soaring out of control. While most abortions are due to women not wanting to have a baby at a particular time or place in her life, women in general are not flocking to have abortions. And late term abortions are not practiced as commonly as they would have you believe. Anti-abortionists carp on them because of their shock value, as a device to turn public opninion to their way of thinking.
As for the morning after pill--I agree that it should be available. Unfortunately, many anti-abortion folks even twist that item: even though the pill can no & does not affect eggs that have already been fertilized, you will find them saying that it tdoes & that it is just another form of abortion! Women aren't even told that the pill exists for the most part. And--get this!--a court recently upheld a pharmacist who refused to fill a subscription for the morning after pill because she does not agree with its use. Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on January 14, 2003 11:07:35 PM new
>Now Borillar says it cant be proven,
I didn't say that. Please don't put words into my mouth that I never spoke or wrote. I said that I did not have any links to show what exact folks leading the Republican party that have made exactly which comments. I have heard the terms and sentiments being used in the media when it comes to the more reactionary far-right elements of the Republican party. Certainly, I'm not the only one to have heard them say it. Unfortunately, when they did say it, they did not provide links for your pleasure.
Junquemama, I do understand that you do want to know just who to bitche at about just what, since you are always the first to take offence at any suggestion that women might get less than what they fully deserve.
The Internet is indeed full of links about their efforts to roll back Roe v. Wade. That's no news at all. You may have heard about them wanting to roll back racial equality incentives, such as quotas and extra points for college and workplace entrance. I have heard them recently stating their desire to roll-back the Civil Rights Amendment as an "unnecessary" Amendment to the Constitution.
I have also heard some of them even proclaim that sexual harassment laws are Special Women's Rights along with anti-Stalking laws and their battle to destroy all Women's Shelters, if you can believe that! It is their desire to put women back in to the kitchen as slaves, blacks back onto the plantations as slaves, and homosexuals back into the closet or dead.
Junquemama, their feelings and their agenda hasn't been kept much of a secret -- to those that are listening to what they are saying and watching what shannigans that they are doing. Had I realized that so many on here find this unfamiliar, I would have tried to find links for you to enjoy and to educate yourself with. I just didn't thnk that was necessary. I only stated that I didn't have links so that those who side with REPUBLICANS aren't going to come in here and ask me about it.
posted on January 14, 2003 11:13:28 PM new
Bunni - And late term abortions are not practiced as commonly as they would have you believe.
I know they're true. For almost 4 years I saw up front what happens. I haven't formed my personal opinions on what I've read or heard, rather my personal experience of working in an abortion clinic. There are many who use to work in this field who have spoken about what really goes on. Usually they're not believed as some think [or judge] they're religious and therefore that's why they're against abortion. They may have found religion after their experiences [I couldn't say] but what they share in their stories is most often the truth....at least as I experienced it.
Edited to add: On the pharmacist not wanting to ...they shouldn't have to. No one should have to do something they don't feel is morally right. There are plenty who would provide those pills that I think we need to force those that don't want to, to do so.
I worked with many doctors and nurses who wouldn't have anything to do with the abortion side of OBGYN. Their right, imo. And while some stats are showing a slight decrease in 1st trimester abortions, why do you think some in the medical field are currently trying to force the issue of all OBGYN residents learning the procedure? Why would that be necessary if the numbers are dropping? With so many unreported, it's hard to know if they're increasing or decreasing. But I've witnessed doctors saying they'll leave if administration even think they will require them to do these procedures.
[ edited by Linda_K on Jan 15, 2003 12:04 AM ]
posted on January 15, 2003 12:34:26 AM new>Now Borillar says it cant be proven,
I didn't say that. Please don't put words into my mouth that I never spoke or wrote. I said that I did not have any links to show what exact folks leading the Republican party that have made exactly which comments.
You said earlier:
Junquemama, you keep wanting to have a rational explanation when there is none
Just a guess here,after exploreing many womens sites,Im pretty sure they would have been up in arms over those type of comments.
Junquemama, I do understand that you do want to know just who to bitche at about just what, since you are always the first to take offence at any suggestion that women might get less than what they fully deserve
Thats true,you can bank on it.
The Internet is indeed full of links about their efforts to roll back Roe v. Wade. That's no news at all. You may have heard about them wanting to roll back racial equality incentives, such as quotas and extra points for college and workplace entrance.
Yes,I had just posted those two findings in my post to Bunni.
I have heard them recently stating their desire to roll-back the Civil Rights Amendment as an "unnecessary" Amendment to the Constitution. I have also heard some of them even proclaim that sexual harassment laws are Special Women's Rights along with anti-Stalking laws and their battle to destroy all Women's Shelters, if you can believe that! It is their desire to put women back in to the kitchen as slaves, blacks back onto the plantations as slaves, and homosexuals back into the closet or dead.
The only place's I know of that would make such an out landish remark,Is the good old boys clubs..one of many..some are called skin heads.Speaking for all women,blacks,gays,people of color,who cant be here for this enlightning conversation,We are very aware of these people.I doubt they are all Republican.Some are known as other names,"Hicks" and "rednecks",and last, but not least "hillbillys."
Junquemama, their feelings and their agenda hasn't been kept much of a secret -- to those that are listening to what they are saying and watching what shannigans that they are doing. Had I realized that so many on here find this unfamiliar, I would have tried to find links for you to enjoy and to educate yourself with
Im listening Borillar,..
I only stated that I didn't have links so that those who side with REPUBLICANS aren't going to come in here and ask me about it.
Ahhhhh The only ones who would question you would be one who sides with republicans.
ROTFLMAO,
Satisfied?
.. What do you think?
[ edited by junquemama on Jan 15, 2003 12:37 AM ]
[ edited by junquemama on Jan 15, 2003 12:40 AM ]
posted on January 15, 2003 11:21:17 AM new
>ut you are wasting your time replying to what is only a lot of hot air.
Your opinion, Lnda. But the Republican Party's core is made up of staunch Nazis and Ku Klux Klansmen and so are many of the Fundamentalist influences as well. That's why they hate John McCain, who is a moderate Old-Time Republican.
"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The White House is expected to file a brief by Thursday with the U.S. Supreme Court opposing a University of Michigan affirmative action program, according to administration officials."
posted on January 15, 2003 11:27:12 AM new
uh Borillar - I didn't say that. Your friend, Helen did. Wake up and pay attention to who's saying what please.
posted on January 15, 2003 11:40:43 AM new
Borillar - A poll being run, right now, on CNN shows that many people agree.
Created: Wed Jan 15 13:36:24 EST 2003 Should minorities get preferential treatment in university admissions policies?
Yes 14% 2474 votes No 86% 15508 votes
Total: 17,982 votes This QuickVote is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those Internet users who have chosen to participate.
posted on January 15, 2003 11:52:38 AM new
Don't y'all know that the Borillar is the only person here that knows anything? We should all bow to his Supreme Knowledge and get down on our hands and knees and thank the Lord (aka Borillar) that he has deemed to educate us and lift our minds from the all encompassing dark ignorance that afflicts us. We know nothing. He knows everything there is to know about anything. We are peons! We are dust mites in comparison to his glorious being! Hallelujah! We've been saved! However did we manage our pitiful existences before he appeared to show us the True Way to Salvation? Cast off your ignorant evil "Republican" ways and worship at the altar of Borillar, lest you be exposed for your secret and evil Nazi Ku Klux Klan beliefs that Lord Borillar knows lurks in all our hearts!
KatyD
[ edited by KatyD on Jan 15, 2003 11:53 AM ]
posted on January 18, 2003 07:06:59 AM new
This is regarding 'late-term' abortions.
Firstly, the article linked to above said that late-term abortions accounted for "0.17 percent of abortions". In other words, a *very small* percentage (less than 1/5th of one percent) are late-term abortions.
Secondly, there are cases where it (late term abortion) may not be medically necessary (to save the mother's life, etc.) but is still justified.
posted on January 18, 2003 09:05:00 AM new
Sure, it's a woman's choice what she does with her body. But some of those choices cost people a lot of money.
It is a man's choice what he does with his body as well.
The information/literature is out there on
healthy eating, exercise habits, self care skills and all that good stuff.
If I have health insurance, if something will cover my !ss then I can eat how ever much I want right? I can eat a bunch of carbs, fat, sugar what have you. Then I can go to the doctor and feign disbelief when he tells me that I have clogged arteries.
Maybe then they can give me a prescription or a placebo that will take all of my problems away. Or better yet, surgery to circumvent the problem. And I can continue to live due to a miracle of science.
posted on January 18, 2003 09:10:43 AM new
That article is ridiculous.
Let's look at everybody's biological composition as a standard for whether they get into college or not. I'm really sure.
That's not the real issue.
Race, that stuff is a bunch of baloney.
I could make my own race, determined upon what my personal tastes are. I like Disco
music, pizza, the color blue, maybe I can start my own club and then get government funds for my own personal agenda.
posted on January 22, 2003 07:16:26 PM new
I am getting to read some of this thread a little late but today, the 30th anniversary of a women's right to choose what
happens to her body, is a good time to add
this.
The Diane Rehm show had a segment on NPR today with one of the guests being Ken
Connor of Family Research Council.
Linda K: You stated on January 14th:
I wish we [collectively] could end the fight over abortions. I wish all abortions were illegal unless for medical reasons. One of the things I'd like to see is a huge promotion of the 'morning after' pill where a woman could easily go to any pharmacy, no prescription needed, and get two pills to take to prevent conception from occurring.
Bunnicula is right. Connor also stated today the morning after pill would not be acceptable to his group because conception has already happened and life has begun by the morning after. Therefore it should be illegal too. Ashcroft, O'Connell and others have also stated this. In cases of rape and incest the child should be given up for adoption.
I hope people who haven't decided will turn your speakers on and listen to this.
It is unbelievable that some male could say women should carry a fetus of incest or rape to term.
posted on January 22, 2003 07:26:24 PM new
The abortion prohibition also applies to Birth Control pills for those that think a human is created at conception. Using BC pills will also prevent a fertilized egg from implanting.
For those of you that are against abortion, think about this-- The Supreme Court didn't say that abortions are good nor did they say that woman should have abortions, they merely said it is between the woman and her health care giver.
This may sound simplistic, but the reason behind it is more simplistic, but very basic to personal freedom.
The Supreme Court knew that if the government had the power to prevent a woman from having an abortion, it was also within the governments power to force a woman to have an abortion.
posted on January 23, 2003 05:25:22 AM new
Hi aposter - Agreed, there are extremes on both ends. Those who don't want BC used at all....To those who think a women should be allowed to terminate her pregnancy no matter how advanced it is, and without 'cause'. And like most major decisions in life, we each choose where we stand.
What I believe will happen, is that abortion most likely will never be reversed. But I think restrictions will come about. Limits to what's allowed. And, after my personal experiences, I think these changes are very much needed.
When I stated my 'wishes' above [those you highlighted] I did so because that's the position I've chosen for where my comfort level is on this issue.
So many are under wrong impressions about abortion and what goes on. Most, even those who have posted here, appear to believe this choice is between a woman and her doctor. There is no 'her doctor'. A woman makes a call, sets up an abortion and the procedure is done. That's the only time a doctor needs to be involved...to do the abortion.
Some believe abortion has set limits...on reason..gestational age of the fetus..etc. There are none, no limits no restrictions...the only thing needed is a doctor who's willing to perform the surgery. An abortion in the third trimester is just as easy to have done, as one in the first trimester. Do diffence at all. What sets any so called limits are what gestational age a doctor is willing to abort. Some doctors will only perform abortions until the first trimester, some will do so in the second trimester and then there are fewer who are willing to terminate the third trimester pregnancies. That's the only limits there are now. From my personal experience, and when I've asked the doctors why they're willing to do abortions at this stage but not at this stage, their answer has always been that that is where their 'comfort' level ends.
My personal beliefs are that young girls under the age of 18 shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion without their parents consent. They shouldn't be taken over state lines into a state where a doctor will perform a third trimester abortion. As the pregnancy progresses, the risk become greater. I sure wouldn't want to get a call from another state that my daughter had died or has serious complications and I didn't even know about it. Not only does this further promote a break down in the family, but I've seen several abortions go wrong and the parents, still responsible, weren't even aware.
I've seen cases of incest that resulted in a pregnancys going unreported. There's a case now where Planned Parenthood performed an abortion on a 13 year old. Didn't report it [to authorities] as required by law. From what I've heard the abortion was perform, she was sent home, only to continue to be sexually abused until she again became pregnant. While I don't know this story to be true [it will be decided in court] I have seen times when this has gone unreported.
Reamond - We are 'The government'. I don't have any worry that if what you suggest should even be talked about, people in the US would unite and it wouldn't come to pass. Just like the voters decided that abortion should be legal. But I don't think we can use that same reasoning to say there should be/need be no restrictions to abortion.
Many who are aware of the number of abuses have gone from being a supporter of abortion, now believe limits are needed. And I'm just one of them.
Abortion should be a personal right to all women, including those under age 18. It's primitive to believe otherwise. Bush now wants to control sexual and reproductive health worldwide and for this effort, the fundamentalist Christians are dancing a happy dance. As payback for fundamentalists and conservative votes and support, Bush is using and abusing women's rights, taking the country back decades to the era when women died from hushed up back door abortions.
So, while funds are being reduced for sex education and birth control is being discouraged Bush wants to restrict abortion. What a moronic scheme!
Everyone, including those under 18 should have birth control available in the drug store in the isle next to condoms. Sex education should be required in every school and when this fails, abortion should be available to all.
posted on January 23, 2003 09:00:59 AM new
It's not your choice/your body if there's someone else living in it. Does that person have a choice about whether it should be terminated? If you don't want children, don't have sex. A million aborted fetuses a year paints a pretty gruesome picture.
.. What do you think?
