posted on February 1, 2003 08:25:46 PM new
Accept that what happens to people in Rwanda, or India or Iraq is as important as to what happens to people in New York.
Notice how ever since Bush's speech the other night the New Republicans here at the RT have wrapped themselves up in the flag and have taken it upon themselves to point fingers at anyone who doesn't agree with them, calling them unpatriotic, traitors, or making libelous remarks in order to do character assasination and EVEN come right out and tell you to SHUT UP like as if they were someone important and in charge! That's the sort of nonsense that we can ALL look forward to in the Bush - Republican Vision of America!
edited for no reason.
[ edited by Borillar on Feb 1, 2003 10:17 PM ]
posted on February 1, 2003 10:31:29 PM new
Actually, austbounty, if you want to be able to say anything that you like on here and prevent the reactionaries from bashing you, just edit your posts like I do. They seem to have a reaction to them similar to vampires and crosses.
edited for no reason.
[ edited by Borillar on Feb 1, 2003 10:31 PM ]
posted on February 2, 2003 01:23:13 AM new
There are some facts here, just no new ones ....just same ole peace-nik stuff.
And a really one-sided article.
I'd better quit or I'll get accused of being libelous or something....
Oh, but it's OK for some people to accuse to whole U.S. of being Hypocrites.
Going to wrap myself in the flag now, been doing that for a long time.
posted on February 2, 2003 01:58:40 AM new
Yes I do live in Australia.
Richard Garfield, a public health specialist at Columbia University in New York, estimated the number of excess death of children under five from the start of the sanctions in 1990 till 1998. His most likely figure was 227,000. A UN Survey puts the number even higher. The causes of death include malnutrition, a decline in immunization for lack of medicines, and polluted water. Sewage and water systems were heavily bombed in the Gulf War. Those that work are handicapped by the power outages.
Bones21, take some of those bones with you.
And wrap yourself up in YOUR sence of patriotism.
Your flag is a rag, made in China, why not show some concern for those around you too.
You haven't got any valid grounds to turn your back on reason.
Heavens forbid any peace-niks raise their heads.
[ edited by austbounty on Feb 2, 2003 02:02 AM ]
posted on February 2, 2003 02:35:48 AM new
AustBounty,
This thread is already a dead-end like your last one. I noticed you didn't respond to any of the points in it, you just went away.
Again, like I said in the other thread, the ball is in Sadaam's court and has been for 12 years. HE is the cause of those children starving and dying, by not living up to UN resolutions, not the U.S.
I do have strong concerns and compassion for all the people on this planet. Most of the wars and suffering in this century have been caused by dictators and totalitarian regimes.
(And yes, I know we have supported some of them, don't start with that. Hopefully we have learned some lessons.) Hussein is a dictator and not a benevolent one. He needs to go and his people will benefit. Surely you would agree with that. Iraq is the "cradle of civilization" and has great resources. It's PEOPLE need to benefit from those resources and not one man and his cronies.
No doubt, AustBounty, that many U.S. flags are "Made in China" (that is a side-issue and one of concern too). But none of them are rags. I am trying to hold my tongue...
posted on February 2, 2003 04:56:55 AM new
Explain to me what’s wrong with “dealing with human rights violations, wherever they occur”
OR “allocating and spending the resources necessary to eradicate poverty.”
Even if only by staring in your own back yard
The Iraqi people have endured 12 years of strict economic sanctions, which have helped to reduce the country from relative prosperity to abject poverty. Independent studies estimate that at least a quarter of a million Iraqi children under five have died as a result of the sanctions.
“More innocent Iraqis will be killed in a war against Iraq than all the victims of terrorist' attacks since September 11 2001 combined. By pouring almost inconceivably vast resources into preparing for and carrying out military conflicts we endanger the fragile lives of millions, while diverting those same resources from the war on poverty.”
It is Sadam we must have then, but this war will be against the people of Iraq.
But why do you say this war is against a tyrant, it is inaccurate, a lie, the war will be with the people of Iraq.
They are being spun around as USA and other nation change their economic allegiances
“In 1988, Saddam Hussein was using chemical weapons against its own citizens, a fact that was well known by the United States who continued to give large amounts of military and other “AID’ to Iraq at the time.”
How can any humane man have concerns for a flag when human lives are treated as cattle.
This war will not bring joy to many; only to more tyrants, like the tyrants that manufacture weapons and have much to gain from their use, and some tyrants that have vast interests in oil.
Just as you said; “We, the PEOPLE need to benefit from those resources and not one man and his cronies. “
We the people means, to me, the bulk, the masses, the common man, the flock, the canon fodder, the grunts, he that tills the soil, and of course our children.
I live in Australia and I know we are generally living well in the 1stWorld compared to the 2nd & the 3rd I see in the media and it isn’t JUST.
We continue to live well and even have people living in suffering in our own lands.
We can’t continue down this path forever, there is no optimistic outcome, it’s destructive.
There is a strong force against the status quo and change will come about, it’s inevitable.
There will be a ‘correction’ lets hope it’s not an ‘over-correction’.
People, and none more than dubya can help to bring about a just outcome and not a fight over a flag or self righteous patriotic greed..
posted on February 2, 2003 05:55:28 AM newExplain to me what's wrong with "dealing with human rights violations, wherever they occur"
Two questions. What's Australia doing about this and do you believe the US is the only country responsible for doing 'whatever it takes' to stop these violations? Or should the UN be taking action on countries like, say, North Korea...where their people are starving to death?
OR "allocating and spending the resources necessary to eradicate poverty." Last time I heard the US is providing the world with 60% of it's food. How much is Australia providing?
Even if starting in your own back yard. We do have established programs that take care of our poor and needy. Shall we withdraw the billions of $$ we give to other countries..would that make things better or worse, in your opinion?
posted on February 2, 2003 06:01:10 AM newAre YOU a PATRIOT? GO to WAR with Bush!! Yes, I am [we are]. If Bush decides to attack we support his actions and we support our Armed Forces that will be ridding the world of a madman.
posted on February 2, 2003 07:28:56 AM new
I'm Proud to be an American.
We'll do what we have to do. We always have. We've fought injustice around the world. We are always the BAD guy, THEY FORGET QUICKLY, but no one calls us the COWARD.
posted on February 2, 2003 08:18:30 AM new
Australia is often protecting it's self interest too.
I only recently discovered, we have oil interests in Timor, where we recently went to 'liberate' too.
USA is providing 60% of world with food??
What!!! out of benevolence???
Your country does not have a recent history of giving aid for philanthropic reasons,
it's out of self-interest.
Just as it armed the Contras, and just as it armed Sadam in 1988.
Linda_K
“If Bush decides to attack we support his actions and we support our Armed Forces that will be ridding the world of a madman.”
It is a lie to say this war is against 1 madman.
It's against the people of Iraq.
Eradicating the oppressed is not acceptable in eradicating oppression.
You will not see reason Linda, only blindly following your leader, as you have declared.
YOU go Linda, or send your children, but I’ll bet the Grunts-Foot soldiers, won’t be coming from your brood.
Reverend Colin
“We've fought injustice around the world.”
If you were to remove that line from your previous statement, it would be much more believable.
Protecting your immediate ‘self’-interests is not necessarily better in the long run.
The US is currently the most powerful nation on earth, and it’s power has been and is being misused with likely catastrophic results. And not just for the people of Iraq.
posted on February 2, 2003 08:29:45 AM newI only recently discovered, we have oil interests in Timor, where we recently went to 'liberate' too.
Yes, and OUR American soldiers were sent to your country ready to back your country up.
YOU go Linda, or send your children. Me? I'm way too old. Our son is a 33 year old US Marine who WILL be fighting if we go to war. He leans to the left, politically, but supports his leaders position.
I just love how you take the generousity of our country and still complain. Didn't answer my question about how much Australia gives though.
posted on February 2, 2003 08:40:09 AM new
But what have you as a proud upstanding example of Australian pride done to aid the cause of your native citizens, the aborigine.
If you were to spend as much time working to further their cause as you do flapping your ineffectual jaws bashing American politicts (to which you have no effect) you MIGHT become a worth human being.
I am an AMERICAN PATRIOT. I served when called & if called again would proudly serve, that is MORE THAN YOU CAN SAY.
What have you done other than make a mockery of true Australian partriots.
Conviently, you seem to forget (again) if it wasn't for the Good Ole U.S.of A.,(and their agression) the counrty you live in would have been a territory under Japanese rule.
[ edited by bear1949 on Feb 2, 2003 08:56 AM ]
I will not support taking our troops into Iraq, if I believe it wrong.
And I will not call them murderers upon their return.
But you bear are saying I should support the war, rightly or wrongly, because it’s the Patriotic thing to do.
And unlike my leaders I am 'sorry' for what white men have done to the Aboriginals and will always approve of plans to correct that.
[ edited by austbounty on Feb 2, 2003 08:59 AM ]
posted on February 2, 2003 09:16:38 AM new
Linda_K
"Last time I heard the US is providing the world with 60% of it's food. How much is Australia providing?"
As I pointed out to you Linda, The US does not ‘GIVE’ out of benevolence.
How much Australia gives has no bearing on the rights or wrongs of war.
This war is NOT out of dubya’s ’benevolent’ reasons for being there.
He is the biggest player in this war.
He’s only in it for the oil.
Thre is no need for blind patriotism except to further dubya's cause.
posted on February 2, 2003 09:49:55 AM new
ausbounty - Here are the questions you're not answering.
Since you reap so much blame on the US and their policies I asked:
What's Australia doing about this
and do you believe the US is the only country responsible for doing 'whatever it takes' to stop these violations?
Or should the UN be taking action on countries like, say, North Korea...where their people are starving to death?
I tried to show you what the US is doing....for the world...you want to argue why they're doing it...I'd like an answer as to what your country is doing....no matter the reasons. That's why I asked: How much is Australia providing?
All are free to complain about what the US does or doesn't do....that's easy. But since you come here and continue to bash my country, I'm asking what your country is doing for the people of the world?
posted on February 2, 2003 09:53:44 AM new
There are those that will go if called upon to fight injustice. and then there's the coeards that will flap their lips.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
posted on February 2, 2003 10:07:48 AM new
Here's a site about Australia Mass crimes against humanity and genocide you may find interesting. You can find bad in anything.
People that live in glass houses should throw crap.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide2.htm
1770 to now Australia British invaders Aboriginal people 720 thousand victims
The European invasion of Australia started in 1788. The population of Aboriginals in the country was approximately 750,000. By 1911, the number had been reduced to 31,000. Most were decimated by diseases introduced by the invaders, against which the Aboriginals had no defense. Some 20,000 were murdered. In those days, "The Sydney Herald claimed that blacks had 'bestowed no labour upon the land-their ownership, their right, was nothing more than that of the Emu or the Kangaroo.' Courts rejected Aboriginal evidence, because non-Christians could not swear oaths, and white killers used 'the defence that Aboriginal morality did not exist'. " The extermination of Aboriginals in Tasmania was particularly brutal; many white settlers would shoot them on sight. In 1830, the remaining 300 Aboriginals were ethnically cleansed from Tasmania. They were captured and transferred to Flinders Island. They signed a treaty which guaranteed their later return. It was never honored. By 1843, only 50 remained alive.
posted on February 2, 2003 10:07:51 AM new
Thanks Colin, a gust of wind just kicked up here. Must have been Austi, gabbing again.
Austi...
Personally, I would like to see the U.S. STOP feeding the WORLD & provide MORE aid to the people in AMERICA that need it. We still have American citizens going to bed hungary at night.
Although you will critize that, I don't see Australian trying to send food to Africa.
[ edited by bear1949 on Feb 2, 2003 10:12 AM ]
posted on February 2, 2003 10:24:52 AM new
bear - I agree [giving more to our own], and that's the point I'm trying to make. We do give a lot of resources to the world. austbounty appears to me to be saying it hasn't made a difference to those people. Well...I'm saying that without our aid those people won't be eating. But so often it appears to me, it's not appreciated...it's NEVER enough. We're rich...give it all. We're the strongest....go protect...when we do we're blamed.
And when ausbounty says: Explain to me what's wrong with "dealing with human rights violations, wherever they occur"
OR "[/i]allocating and spending the resources necessary to eradicate poverty[/i]."
Then I try to better understand her stance on just WHO should be doing these two things, she won't answer. Is she blaming the US for not eliminating all the wrongs of the world, while in the other hand throw mud at us when we do? It wasn't clear to me...but it appears she's not going to answer.
And when I take offense at my country being bashed and ask what her country is doing about either of the issues SHE presented.....I get no answer.
So...she just wants to bash America...not discuss the issues.
posted on February 2, 2003 10:41:05 AM new
Okay, I'm not trying to offend, but got this bit of funny in an email today. Thought I'd share to lighten up a tad:
"The government announced today that it is changing its emblem to a condom because it more clearly reflects the government's political stance.
A condom stands up to inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects a bunch of pricks, and gives you a sense of security while you're actually being screwed.
Damn, it just doesn't get more accurate than that!"
Please don't slam me. The views expressed in this joke are not necessarily those of the poster.
"austbounty [b]appears to me to be saying it hasn't made a difference to those people. Well...I'm saying that without our aid those people won't be eating'
End quote
First, Linda WHERE does ausbounty say that?.... "it hasn't made a difference to those people"
You can bet that it's making a difference to the US or we wouldn't be doing it.
Maybe austbounty has answered your questions beyond your ability to understand.
Everything that she has said makes perfect sense to me. Did you read the link at the beginning of the thread?
posted on February 2, 2003 11:03:40 AM new
bones - I really don't know. Maybe I should have put he/she.
Another problem I have with he/she is when people like this appear to imply that UNLESS one is going off to war themselves, or sending their family members, they shouldn't be allowed to support their country's position or their own conscience.
posted on February 2, 2003 11:17:34 AM new
Now, now -- let's cut austbounty some slack, like we did for Bear and others when they first came into here. This messageboard is unlike others in so many ways. We have some unspoken rules and methods that most of us have taken for granted and automatically expect from someone new. How about we all decide to politely teach them to austbounty, whose job thereafter will be to accommodate them, eh?
unspoken rules (debatable)
1) If asked a question and you see it, then answer it. It's better to give a bad answer than no answer at all. You ignore questions posed to you; pretty soon, everyone will be ignoring your questions. Savvy?
2) Try to remember to put things like In My Opinion (IMO) when stating facts that you have its basis as a personal belief. Nothing seems to irritate the right-wing more than to give your opinion without defining it as such. Without telling them that it is an opinion, they want proof of your facts; e.g. where did you get those numbers, can you please provide a link or other info to go look it up? Putting 'IMO' in the appropriate spots lets everyone know that the numbers are just your personal opinion and everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want.
Conversely, before posting numbers and figures of fact, try to get a link or two from MAINSTREAM SOURCES ~ not from Rush Limbaugh or the Communist Gazette for instance. Then, post the links along with your numbers and/or facts and that allows others to see for themselves (and it shuts up most detractors). Best of all, it doesn't leave you with egg on your face should someone take the time to get the REAL facts and prove you wrong!
3) Proving someone's opinion false is a waste of time. Everyone is hanging onto their opinion for dear life. If you want to blast their opinion, use LOGIC, REASONING (the Good stuff), or LINKS to the contrary.
4) Character assassination is reserved for New Republicans and other so-called conservatives. Your best bet is to abide by Community Guidelines when having your character assassinated. They are consummate professionals at childish behavior and name calling, so why bother to lower yourself to their level?
There are others, but that is all that comes to mind right now.
edited for no reason.
[ edited by Borillar on Feb 2, 2003 11:17 AM ]
posted on February 2, 2003 11:50:34 AM new
Actually, austbounty provided a copious amount of information at the beginning of this thread and she answered Linda's inane questions over and over and over.
Some people can only comprehend what they want to hear.
When asked, "Linda, where did you read that", she has no answer because it was a figment of her abundantly inventive imagination.
