posted on February 8, 2003 08:32:51 PM new
After reading this letter, he ought to stick to music or do a war protest song.
Dave Matthews Speaks Out About the War
I hope this letter finds you all well and that in these uncertain times you find moments to be joyful.
I want to speak my mind about this war with Iraq, or I will choke on my conscience.
What is the motivation? Regime change? Shouldn't that be up to the people of the region and the people of Iraq? The only real threat from Saddam Hussein is to his neighbors and none of them support a U.S. invasion. Is it to stabilize the Middle-East? Wouldn't it only do the opposite by causing further death and suffering in a country that has had more than its share?
Is it to weaken Al Qaeda? Saddam Hussein is a genocidal maniac but he is not Al Qaeda. He is certainly more visible though. Is he our target because he is easier to identify than the illusive terrorist network? Surely it is more likely that an attack on Iraq would only strengthen Al Qaeda by feeding Anti-American sentiment. Putting out the fire with gasoline, so to speak. It is certainly not to liberate the people of Iraq who suffer under Hussein's rule, unless we call killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis liberation.
Saddam Hussein is a barbaric murderous dictator. I wish the world were free of him. But the answer is not to bomb this great culture of Iraq out of existence to stop him. Why must the children of Iraq die by the thousands to stop a tyrant? It is not justice. And if we kill him what will we achieve? We will have taken the most unpopular leader in the Middle East and turned him into the greatest martyr radical Islam has ever had. The U.N. weapons inspectors must be allowed to do their job thoroughly and any military action should be internationally agreed upon. We must not allow our government to turn us into a rogue nation.
I fear that our true motivation is about oil and our own flailing economy; about the failure to destroy Al Qaeda and about revenge. It is criminal to put our servicemen and women in harm's way and to put the lives of so many civilians on the line for the misguided frustrations of the Bush administration.
Bottom line: this war is wrong and this war is un-American.
posted on February 8, 2003 08:55:42 PM new
“this war is wrong and this war is un-American. “
Many people and countries are now (rightly or wrongly)saying that it’s ‘typically’ American.
A true statement is no less valid because it offends some.
More Americans should stop permiting those EXTREME cases like bear1949 to dominate and sway a 'debate' (I use the term loosely in his case)and say as David Mathews has(whoever he is)"I want to speak my mind about this war with Iraq, or I will choke on my conscience."
posted on February 8, 2003 09:10:25 PM new
From another post.
Leter to the editor.
'Advertiser' News Paper, South Australia.
Feb. 8 2003.
"QUESTIONABLE MOTIVES"
The US didn't start it. They have never ever backed up, funded,supported, bank rolled or dealt in any way with SAdam Hussein (especially in the supply of chemical weapons- Just ask Rumsfeld)
They had no involvement with Suharto, Pinochet, the Argentine junta, El Salvador, Nicuragua, Colombia, Venezuala and never did illegally bomb the hell out of Cambodia or Laos.
They don't trade with murderous regimes like China, or oppressive states like Saudi Arabia. They have never supported corrupt governments like the shah of Iran, or pre-Castro Cuba.
No wonder the thinking world questions the US motives and that of the West in general."
posted on February 9, 2003 03:11:34 AM newMore Americans should stop permiting those EXTREME cases like bear1949 to dominate and sway a 'debate'
Oh...stop those extreme [LOL] cases?? and just how would you propose we do that? Oh....but wait, I remember....you don't answer questions put to you...you just like to make comments/speeches.
posted on February 9, 2003 04:04:28 AM new
Helen-!
ROTGLMAO
“and just how would you propose we do that? “
just the way Dave Matthews said.
Consider your question answered.
And here’s a right back at’ya.
posted on February 9, 2003 08:09:49 AM new
My problem is not that Mathews has an opinion or that he expresses it, nor whether I or anyone else agrees with it. My problem is that his opinion is ill informed and his reasoning is illogical.
posted on February 9, 2003 09:48:10 AM new
I think Dave is just a "mouthpiece" since he is a popular musician. He may be the true author of this, but I doubt it... (probably no doubt that he "authorized" it).
Have you ever seen him try to talk about these subjects in an interview? It's like he forgets what he was "supposed to say".
posted on February 9, 2003 11:51:26 AM new
>More Americans should stop permiting those EXTREME cases like bear1949 to dominate and sway a 'debate'
austbounty, I'm not sure how Bear 'sways' any debate. All you have to do is to ask him to justify any position that he's taking and he returns with a personal attack. While that encourages like thinkers, it only shows anyone who is paying attention what the deal is with Bear.
This is not limited to Bear either: it is inclusive of anyone who gets their opinions from someone else. REAL, honest opinions are well thought out by the person holding them and are established on the facts. Therefore, it is a matter of questioning just how valid those facts are; i.e. the effort that went into it to veruify those facts. When there aren't any facts that can be substancited, that is not 'opinion' -- that is called HOT AIR.
Be sure to always answers questions with logic, facts, and/or solid reasoning. Anything less makes a poster look like a fool.
posted on February 9, 2003 12:32:37 PM newTherefore, it is a matter of questioning just how valid those facts are; i.e. the effort that went into it to veruify those facts. When there aren't any facts that can be substancited, that is not 'opinion' -- that is called HOT AIR.
Yeah...listen to this advice...he should know. Ask him to verify HIS 'facts' and listen to what he tells you.
posted on February 9, 2003 12:35:37 PM newThis is not limited to Bear either: it is inclusive of anyone who gets their opinions from someone else. REAL, honest opinions are well thought out by the person holding them and are established on the facts. Therefore, it is a matter of questioning just how valid those facts are; i.e. the effort that went into it to veruify those facts. When there aren't any facts that can be substancited, that is not 'opinion' -- that is called HOT AIR.
Be sure to always answers questions with logic, facts, and/or solid reasoning. Anything less makes a poster look like a fool.
Ok. I was looking at the rules you set forth earlier, was that RT Rule #5 or #3? I need to print those out, I'll get lost!
posted on February 9, 2003 02:22:42 PM new
Where is common sense Colin? When an oil magnate leads the world into war in a region with much oil.
Logic will tell you that he has a conflict of interests.
posted on February 9, 2003 02:58:03 PM new
Who cares what Dave Matthews thinks? His musics sucks. He had only one good song about 5 years ago and that was it. He's just another pothead musician hippie wannabe.
I'd rather hear what Ted Nugent thinks about Iraq.
posted on February 9, 2003 03:05:26 PM new
Well, if we are basing validity of opinions on time since they had a hit you.ve hit the bottom of the well with Nugent.
posted on February 9, 2003 03:29:06 PM new
Got this off the Ted Nugent site:
America Rocks
By Ted Nugent
As the war on terrorism continues and as war with Iraq appears to loom ominously in the not so distant future, Americans must be equally vigilant to remain thankful that we live in the greatest country the world has ever known.
ThanxGiving is a very important holiday and celebration in the Nugent household. We don’t believe that ThanxGiving, as some retailers would try to lead us to believe, is a mere bump in the road between Halloween and Christmas, but a very special holiday that naturally comes during the hunting season as we finish up the natural season of harvest. It is fitting that we celebrate all of the blessings that God has bestowed upon our family and America.
http://www.tnugent.com/
Amen,
God Bless you and yours Teddy boy,
Keep your powder Dry,
Reverend Colin
posted on February 9, 2003 04:02:43 PM new
colin - thank you SO much for posting that! You know, last week when I was reading bear's post (some of it below), I knew I had heard it somewhere. When you posted this note from Ted Nugent, I went to his site - and there it was
Unfortunately Ted didn't pen it, but this is what his site had to say about it...
There have been a lot of inquiries about this article & whether Ted wrote it or not. Ted did not write the following piece & we aren't sure who did, but we do love it & here it is for you to enjoy!
Sorry about posting it again since part of it was on bear's thread - but I think there are some REALLY good points that are included in this one...
A Bad American
I'm A Bad American. This pretty much sums it up for me.
I like big trucks, big boats, big houses, and naturally, pretty women.
I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some midlevel governmental functionary with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies.
I don't care about appearing compassionate (if I don't actually feel it).
I think playing with toy guns doesn't make you a killer - I believe ignoring your kids and giving them Prozac might.
I think I'm doing better than the homeless.
I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized.
I have the right not to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird or make me mad. This is my life to live, and not necessarily up to others pectations.
I know what SEX is and there are not varying degrees of it.
I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. But if you want to that's fine; just don't feel like everyone else should have to.
I believe that if you are selling me a Dairy Queen shake, a pack of cigarettes, or hotel room you do it in English. As of matter of fact, if you are an American citizen you should speak English. My uncles and forefathers shouldn't have had to die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come disrespect ours, and make us bend to your will. Get over it.
I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry butt if you're running from them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the word 'freeze' or 'stop' in English, see the previous line.
I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for unpopular opinions or actions.
I know how to count votes and I feel much safer letting a machine with no political affiliation do a recount when needed.
I know what the definition of lying is, and it isn't based on the word -- ever.
I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you qualify for any special loan programs, gov't sponsored bank loans, etc., so you can open a hotel, 7-Eleven, trinket shop, or anything else, while the indigenous peoples can't get past a high school education because they can't afford it.
I didn't take the initiative in inventing the Internet.
I thought the Taco Bell dog was funny.
I want them to bring back safe and sane fireworks.
I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, Ice-T or Marilyn Manson sang, but that doesn't mean I want to listen to that crap from someone else's car when I'm stopped at a red light. But I respect your right to.
I think that being a student doesn't give you any more enlightenment than working at Blockbuster or Jack In The Box.
I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite or fat-free on the package.
Our soldiers did not go to some foreign country and risk their lives in vainand defend our Constitution so that decades later you can tell me it's a living document ever changing and is open to interpretation. The guys who wrote it were light years ahead of anyone today, and they meant what they said; now leave the document alone, or there's going to be trouble.
I don't hate the rich.
I help the poor.
I know wrestling is fake.
I've never owned, or was a slave, and a large percentage of our forefathers weren't wealthy enough to own one either. Please stop blaming me because some prior white people were idiots. And remember, tons of white, Indian, Chinese, and other races have been enslaved too; it was wrong for every one of them.
I believe a self-righteous liberal with a cause is more dangerous than a Hell's Angel with an attitude.
I want to know exactly which church is it where the "Reverend" Jessie Jackson preaches; and, what exactly is his job function.
I own a gun, you can own a gun, and any red blooded American should be allowed to own a gun, but if you use it in a crime, then you will serve the time.
I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it makes you mad, then invent the next operating system that's better and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy that invented the Internet to help you.
I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Even suggesting it makes me mad. You're telling me that someone who is a minority, gay, disabled, another nationality, or otherwise different from the mainstream of this country has more value as a human being that I do as a white male? If someone kills anyone, I'd say that it's a hate crime.
We don't need more laws! Let's enforce the ones we already have.
I think turkey bacon, turkey beef, turkey fake anything sucks.
I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child; it takes a parent with the guts to stand up to the kid and spank his butt and say "NO!" when it's necessary to do so.
I'll admit that the only movie that ever made me cry was Ole Yeller.
I didn't realize Dr. Seuss was a genius until I had a kid.
I will not be frowned upon or be looked down upon or be made to keep silent because I have these beliefs and opinions. I thought this country allowed me that right. I will not conform or compromise just to keep from hurting somebody's feelings. I'm neither angry nor disenfranchised, no matter how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to believe otherwise.
Yes, I guess by some people's definition, I may be a bad American.
But that's tough.
"Be kind. Remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Harry Thompson
[ edited by wgm on Feb 9, 2003 04:04 PM ]
[ edited by wgm on Feb 9, 2003 04:05 PM ]
posted on February 9, 2003 04:18:33 PM new Our soldiers did not go to some foreign country and risk their lives in vain and defend our Constitution so that decades later you can tell me it's a living document ever changing and is open to interpretation. The guys who wrote it were light years ahead of anyone today, and they meant what they said; now leave the document alone, or there's going to be trouble.
posted on February 9, 2003 05:11:14 PM newHarold Pinter gives Honorary Doctorate Speech at Turin University - 27th November 2002
I am deeply honoured to receive this degree from such a great university.
Earlier this year I had a major operation for cancer. The operation and its after-effects were something of a nightmare. I felt I was a man unable to swim bobbing about under water in a deep dark endless ocean. But I did not drown and I am very glad to be alive. However, I found that to emerge from a personal nightmare was to enter an infinitely more pervasive public nightmare - the nightmare of American hysteria, ignorance, arrogance, stupidity and belligerence; the most powerful nation the world has ever known effectively waging war against the rest of the world. "If you are not with us you are against us" President Bush has said. He has also said "We will not allow the world's worst weapons to remain in the hands of the world's worst leaders". Quite right. Look in the mirror chum. That's you.
posted on February 9, 2003 05:12:01 PM new
The US is at this moment developing advanced systems of "weapons of mass destruction" and it prepared to use them where it sees fit. It has more of them than the rest of the world put together. It has walked away from international agreements on biological and chemical weapons, refusing to allow inspection of its own factories. The hypocrisy behind its public declarations and its own actions is almost a joke.
posted on February 9, 2003 05:12:38 PM new
The United States believes that the three thousand deaths in New York are the only deaths that count, the only deaths that matter. They are American deaths. Other deaths are unreal, abstract, of no consequence.
The three thousand deaths in Afghanistan are never referred to.
The hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children dead through US and British sanctions which have deprived them of essential medicines are never referred to. The effect of depleted uranium, used by America in the Gulf War, is never referred to. Radiation levels in Iraq are appallingly high. Babies are born with no brain, no eyes, no genitals. Where they do have ears, mouths or rectums, all that issues from these orifices is blood.
The two hundred thousand deaths in East Timor in 1975 brought about by the Indonesian government but inspired and supported by the United States are never referred to.
The half a million deaths in Guatemala, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Uruguay, Argentina and Haiti, in actions supported and subsidised by the United States are never referred to.
The millions of deaths in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are no longer referred to.
posted on February 9, 2003 05:15:25 PM new
But what a misjudgement of the present and what a misreading of history this is.
People do not forget. They do not forget the death of their fellows, they do not forget torture and mutilation, they do not forget injustice, they do not forget oppression, they do not forget the terrorism of mighty powers. They not only don't forget. They strike back.
The atrocity in New York was predictable and inevitable. It was an act of retaliation against constant and systematic manifestations of state terrorism on the part of the United States over many years, in all parts of the world.
In Britain the public is now being warned to be "vigilant" in preparation for potential terrorist acts. The language is in itself preposterous. How will - or can - public vigilance be embodied? Wearing a scarf over your mouth to keep out poison gas? However, terrorist attacks are quite likely, the inevitable result of our Prime Minister's contemptible and shameful subservience to the United States. Apparently a terrorist poison gas attack on the London Underground system was recently prevented. But such an act may indeed take place. Thousands of school children travel on the London Underground every day. If there is a poison gas attack from which they die, the responsibility will rest entirely on the shoulders of our Prime Minister. Needless to say, the Prime Minister does not travel on the underground himself.
posted on February 9, 2003 05:16:12 PM new
The planned war against Iraq is in fact a plan for premeditated murder of thousands of civilians in order, apparently, to rescue them from their dictator.
The United States and Britain are pursuing a course which can lead only to an escalation of violence throughout the world and finally to catastrophe.
and just how would you propose we do that? Oh....but wait, I remember....you don't answer questions put to you...you just like to make comments/speeches. 
right back at’ya.
