posted on March 2, 2003 01:41:52 AM new
Twinsoft you are a liar, and for all I know a nazi too.
The first 4 lines, which you imply are quoted from me, are not from me at all.
They are from a link I created, what I did understand and see as plausible is the ‘failure to assimilate’.
My type resisted assimilation too, they didn’t want their kids to marry the kids of the ones that called them wogs, I understand. But within the 1st generation 60-70% of my family did, and there is nothing wrong with that in spite of what Linda_K and many others think.
And as far as Joseph, that’s my memory, I shall accept your knowledge of the story, and say obviously that my memory failed me.
Do I remember the verse “we remember the Zion” Correctly.
Get real, you won’t even acknowledge a Jewish’ representation’ let alone bias representation in US media. And you claim I am being deceptive.
You are the same guys that charge me with racism and bag the Muslims all day long.
From Osama it has somehow turned into a war on Arabs, (not that Americans didn’t hate them long before 9/11, as revealed OR encouraged by Hollywood) , and not just Iraq.
Go ahead and bag my Greek or Australian heritage all you like but try and retain a little logic.
I will be a good sport about it and declare my colours to you and not hide behind a veil.
Let me help you, the Greeks have a high rate of faulty ships flying their flags, I am told exon has some of them, their type invented the cut and shut oil tanker, most other civilised countries don’t do that, for obvious reasons.
Get physical what of the term ‘Greek style”, after 400 ears of Turkish domination in that land, I can have a good guess at what the ‘style’ would have been then.
I am speaking up for balance here, I’m sick and the world is sick of ‘Middle East threat’.
What is YOUR agenda, don’t be a terrorist, show me your colours, so I can assess when I hear one of my countrymen exercising their freedom of speech, if it is in fact the enemy within, with an alternate agenda at hand.
I believe in treating others as they ‘do’ treat me.
Osama did it, do it to him.
Sadam did it, do it to him.
Sharon did it, do it to him.
Not the innocents or the ‘grunts’ they are just instruments.
But some of you guys (and I don’t mean just Jews or Hebrews) want to kill them all, all the ‘other’-semites.
And this is why I rant, not to convince you, I may just as well bang my head on a wall, but to show others some opinions, including yours.
So some can see that allies do not always have a common interest, and I hope that knowledge contributes toward the saving of a life, not war.
What of those who come for the Muslims next they will come for me.
Why are there so many voices for Jews and none for the Muslims out here.
And guess what, this is my world too and I want to rest. Not R.I.P.
posted on March 2, 2003 06:37:00 AM new
Stusi- I don't accept racial hatred and you can't find one remark that I have made in the last several years on this board to support that.
I do have some animosity toward fundamentalist religion and particularly the Southern Baptist religion. So, I am guilty of religious animosity. I dislike religion in general because of its exclusiveness while at the same time, preaching love and acceptance. Everyone who is not a believer is considered wrong, evil or lost. Isn't this a bigoted position?
Austbounty is concerned about the oppression of Muslims. I also have concern for the Palestinians and I hate the fact that Sharon is bulldozing them into oblivion. But then, the Palestinians in an effort to stand up against oppression give him a rationale for that by using suicide bombers. I don't blame or hate the Jewish people because of Sharon's acts just as I hope other countries will not hate Americans based on the Bush atrocities.
Why are religions so sacrosanct that they cannot be criticized?
If I were the moderator, I would not exclude people with different viewpoints. Sometimes however I would love to zap a Bush lover. LOL!
posted on March 2, 2003 08:27:48 AM new
"Osama did it, do it to him."
Osama did "it" with the help and blessings of millions on middle east muslims.
"Sadam did it, do it to him."
We have to get to him first, and that means we may have to occupy a country to find him- but it is nice to see you now support the war in Iraq.
"Sharon did it, do it to him."
Sharon protects his people. The Arabs have been trying to do "it" to Israel for over 5 decades. Israel has never vowed nor attempted to exterminate the Arabs. However, we can not say the same about the Arabs.
The reason many reach into anti-semitism is because the facts do not support the Palestinian position.
posted on March 2, 2003 11:38:11 AM new
Helen, I'm very disappointed in you. The link austbounty posted to was, as NTS pointed out, anti-semitic. NOT about Palestinian/Israeli issues, it was practically endorsing the Holocaust. If you think there is a "Jewish Problem" or "Jewish Solution" and you think that is a valid political argument, then I think I'm about done here. I want nothing to do with anyone who doesn't see this for what it is. Frankly, despite political differences, liberal vs conservative opinions, etc. I'm shocked about the silence "some" people here are displaying about austbounty and his anti-jew views. There is no excusing it, and Helen, to you especially, I urge you to read that site in it's entirety. If you can come back here and defend it as you've done, then you are a hypocrite and not the person I've always thought you were.
The truth...When I see Austbounty threads, I avoid them. You will find, if you check - that I don't post in these threads.
I did check the link to the 1940 article and I was shocked! But by the time I finished it, you had made a response and I was just waiting for the thread to be blown up.
I got the general drift that austbounty was concerned about the Palestinians like I am but since I haven't read everything, I may be wrong.
I am not a hypocrite and I am sure that you know that. I certainly don't think there is a "Jewish Problem" or "Jewish Solution"
I'm disappointed that you would think that. I haven't been very active in those posts simply because there are people here, like you who are more knowledgeable about the history of Judaism than I am.
posted on March 2, 2003 12:09:59 PM new
Katy wow, I agree 100%.
I like to take out the 'end parts' of a URL and see where things are coming from... if anyone looked.. it was, if I remember, an orginisation of people who all felt this way and worse. On top of this, they were 'submitting' these articles and papers for historical whatever for the country of Australia.
And NO I don't believe for a minute this is how the majority of Aussies feel.
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on March 2, 2003 12:18:53 PM new
KatyD - I'm shocked about the silence "some" people here are displaying about austbounty and his anti-jew views.
Not sure if you've included me in that group, but I hope not. But if you have, please know my silence is because my judgement of everything austbounty has said, since arriving here, has been hate filled to me. And I try to ignore as many of his posts as I can. Don't take that as support for his position, please.
posted on March 2, 2003 12:35:05 PM new
KatyD said:
I'm shocked about the silence "some" people here are displaying about austbounty and his anti-jew views.
I don't to whom you're referring, but I have said very little myself. The reason is I didn't have the stomach to read the links.
Some months ago I was doing a keyword search for something (forget what for) and unexpectedly landed on a site full of Nazi documents translated into English, in particular one written by an officer (or scholar - can't remember which) in the 1930s concerning the "Jewish Problem" in German society and the steps which should be taken to "solve" it.
It was written without any emotion by someone obviously well educated and it discussed the "problem" with the same kind of logic as one discuss the solving of a mathematical problem. It was chilling and my stomach churned as I forced myself to read the whole thing, trying to understand where that kind of hate had come from.
When I opened Austbounty's link, certain very similar phrases leaped out at me when I started to do a very brief skim and I quickly closed the page. I can't read something like that again. I simply won't.
Do I think that Austbounty's words or links on the RT will convert anyone reading here to that type of thinking - in my opinion, not a snowball's chance in hell.
posted on March 2, 2003 12:43:11 PM new
To add to my post above, I am not responsible for Austbounty's posts or links. The fact that I don't get involved in these rants is not an indication that I approve.
I have been reading less here than usual. I used to read every word of every thread but the thrill is gone. As you mentioned, it seems that hell has arrived.
posted on March 2, 2003 01:16:49 PM new
Helen- The truth is that for someone who seems to easily be able to access almost everything ever written here, you have gotten involved and posted in many threads without reading all the posts or links. For anyone to post in this particular thread and others like them without concern for accuracy will almost always lead to animosity.
stockticker- isn't this reminiscent of the "problem" I had with you?
colin- no, it is not an open forum according to the guidelines we all signed up under. I feel that austbounty's hatred has no place here and should be reported to the mods. It may take several people doing so to get the attention this deserves.
posted on March 2, 2003 01:18:45 PM new
The parent page of austbounty's beginning link is an interesting one. The australian nationalist movement sure seems to spend a lot of time proving that it is NOT nazism! ("some of my best friends are Jews"
posted on March 2, 2003 01:25:23 PM newHelen- The truth is that for someone who seems to easily be able to access almost everything ever written here, you have gotten involved and posted in many threads without reading all the posts or links. For anyone to post in this particular thread and others like them without concern for accuracy will almost always lead to animosity.
stusi...Exactly where have I been involved in threads without reading all the posts or links without concern for accuracy?
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Mar 2, 2003 04:02 PM ]
You are simply badgering me, because that is what you like to do. You have no basis for your comment. I always read coments in threads in which I post. I not only read the thread content but additional information on the topic before I respond. And I make a special point to be accurate.
posted on March 2, 2003 02:11:41 PM new
Nope, Stusi. If no one had spoken up, you can be damn sure I would have (I would have read the link too) - just as I have done in the past when no one was here to speak up on behalf of other targeted groups. I don't know much about Austbounty's previous posts. I've read here very little for some months and when I started to post regularly a few days ago, I quickly learned to skip over Austbounty's posts.
I've been speaking up against bigotry on another board for the past couple of days. Made a dent too I think.
posted on March 2, 2003 02:25:02 PM new
>Borillar, either you are stupid, or you favor genocide. Which is it?
>Have you read ALL his posts?
Most of them. But when there's screaming and shouting, I turn the other cheek and leave.
stusi, I totally agree with your definition of anti-Semitism. However, I have seen it on here where it was not a question of one's religious beliefs, but simply making anti-Israeli statements and the poster was called an anti-Semite by more than one other poster. Clearly, you definition only seems to fit you and me.
So, austbounty states that Jews tend to stay apart from others and to stay within their own group. That doesn't seem too unusual for me. That Jews may despise others who are not Jews, I've heard of more than a few Jews express such things. Certainly being Jewish is no different than many ethnic groups. Austbounty asserts that anti-Semitism is only a response to this type of behavior. I do find that thought a bit naive, but it could be true that the strong display of ethnicity does create a backlash - we've seen this elsewhere, it's nothing new. But I personally know from history that anti-Semitism has its roots in the bigoted ignorant and the religious zealots. Children are taught to hate Jews, never having met any or talked to any. Yes, there are more than one way for someone to be an anti-Semite than to simply react to how "Us vs. Them" their mentality may get.
As far as our Muslim Brothers, I also am very concerned about that. It is not Bush who has made Muslims a misunderstood enemy, but the American media. Example: if a Christian man plants a bomb and it goes off and kills a crowd of people, then the news reports that "a Man was seen leaving the area" or "a Man is now in custody". However, if the person is Islamic by faith, then it is ALWAYS reported as "a Fundamentalist Muslim with ties to the XXX-Jihad exploded a bomb" or "an Islamic man was arrested in connection with the bombing." Yeah, anti-Semitism and bigotry is indeed alive and well in our media.
Worse, is that most Muslims in the world are Sunni, not radicals, wahhabiis, sheittes, etc. Sunni's believe in and practice the Peace and Love part of the Islamic message. The Saudis are out to destroy Sunnis for their peaceful ways and to turn them into foam-at-the-mouth Fundamentalist Soldiers and our media isn't helping any.
I can't say how things are down-under. Maybe open anti-Semitism of any sort is more widely acceptable. Maybe they take more offence at the Hebrew Faith. I don't know. Here in America, bigotry and racism are not acceptable; although I HAVE SEEN more than a few of those comments slip past here once in a while!
I personally do not believe that anti-Semitism is an adequate response to Israeli Militarism. Hate-for-Hate gets no one anywhere, but Hell. To be Christian in response to Hate is correct. "Love thy Neighbors. Love Thy Enemy" (paraphrased) These are the weapons that will win any War when it is practiced by everyone. Do not hate Jews because they tend to be highly ethnic and closed; do not hate all Muslims because radical factions make the news. The Hate MUST STOP somewhere for it to end. Perhaps we can so love our enemies that they fail to become our enemies anymore. It wouldn't be the first time in history that this has happened.
posted on March 2, 2003 02:38:50 PM newDo not hate Jews because they tend to be highly ethnic and closed
You certainly don't know the first thing about Judaism, its history, or its practitioners, so you might stop trumpeting your ignorance of it with #*!@ statements like the above.
posted on March 2, 2003 03:00:18 PM new
The truth is so many of the NON-highly ethnic and closed Jewish faith have married out of their religion that their is some understandable concern for the future of the faith, particularly in light of the large numbers lost to the Nazis. BTW-Let's not confuse for example the totally "closed"Hassidim with other not so closed or ethnic sects of Judaism. I would think that certain Christian, Muslim, Buddhist sects etc. have a degree of concern about marriage within their faith as well. This is not the same as bigotry IMHO.
stockticker- I was only suggesting that when such a sensitive topic is raised that anyone here even defending the bigot's right to free speech(such as Helen) may be frowned upon.
Borillar- you make some good points, but I would tend to agree with snowyegret regarding your lack of knowledge in this area.
snowy- FEH is a mild comment for this rather sickening thread.
canvid- thanks for making light of a very disturbing issue.
[ edited by stusi on Mar 2, 2003 03:02 PM ]
posted on March 2, 2003 04:17:19 PM new
>You certainly don't know the first thing about Judaism,
>I am not Jewish, but that does not preclude any understanding of what it is like to be jewish.
>its history, or its practitioners,
Oh, Baloney! You think it's some sort of secret how Jews perform their rituals and how they have fared throughout written history? What a ridiculous notion! Furthermore, you have no idea how much I do know and it would likely be a surprize to many on here if you did.
>so you might stop trumpeting your ignorance of it with #*!@ statements like the above.
I'd give you the same advice, since you seem to be so bigoted about Jews.
posted on March 2, 2003 04:28:10 PM new
[quote]So, austbounty states that Jews tend to stay apart from others and to stay within their own group.[/quote]
Let's get this straight. Jews refuse to be assimilated, therefore we should forcibly round them up and remove them from society.
There is a difference between free speech (unfettered speech is not allowed at AW, no matter what you'd like to believe) and hate speech. Hate speech incites to violence. There can be no doubt about the intention of the article, or the poster.
This country was attacked by a Muslim nation. It is at war with a Muslim nation. Not a Jewish nation. To use this current crisis as an excuse to spout nazi propaganda is unacceptable.
Borillar I am so disappointed in you. Not surprised, just disappointed.
KatyD, don't even think about leaving. You are one of the few rational minds here.
posted on March 2, 2003 04:31:45 PM new
Plenty of ‘balance’ here.
When was the last time YOU got spat at on the street, as has been known to happen to Muslims here in the west.
Get this through your head: ‘We’ are not just after Saddam, ‘we’ now seek regime change.
War against Saddam?? 200,000 + to 1
“hatred has no place here”
But I hear no complaints when directed at Muslims.
“France tackles school anti-Semitism”
NO: ‘France tackles school religious persecution’
Don’t be so one eyed, or attempt to ‘spin’ the truth.
posted on March 2, 2003 04:37:31 PM new
>Let's get this straight. Jews refuse to be assimilated, therefore we should forcibly round them up and remove them from society.
I never said this. You put words into my mouth. Is this how you defend Jews? At all costs -- including maligning others? Shame on you, twinsoft. I've said it before on here that you really are no friend of Israel or Jews and I was right. Israel and Jews are better off without your kind of help.
posted on March 2, 2003 04:58:39 PM new
austbounty- Why can't you state your displeasure at the way Muslims are treated without blaming Israel and/or Jewish people? Are you stating that Jews (and Catholics) are not and have not been subject to persecution here and worldwide? You truly make it sound like Muslims are the only ones who have been stigmatized. As a Jewish man with an Irish Catholic Aunt and an Italian Catholic sister-in-law, I can tell you that they were totally accepted by my family. I can also tell you that I have never had a problem with all Muslims other than those who would kill Americans now or those who are rascist such as Farrakhan. Are you a Farrakhan supporter?
posted on March 2, 2003 05:38:13 PM new
Yes stusi,
Attack those who attack Americans.
Don't forget they are not Just Muslims or Iraqis, or Arabs.
I can not site references but apparently there is much evidence to show that those that those 'we' now seek to attack were in fact assisted, with training and supply of weapons including WOMD by official American Government organisations.
Why did they do that?
Are the anti-America or Was it a mistake, or did they seek to create friction.
Do we get them or not.
