krs
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posted on February 27, 2003 05:03:49 AM new
Like 'em or not the Kurds have had a nice little democratic system developing, a system much as one which Bush claims he'd bring to every bombed to oblivion country.
But part of the gigantic giveaway deal with Turkey, aside the much talked about $44 billion payout, allows for the Turks to place troops into post bombed Iraq in order to control the Kurdish people. In other words Bush has agreed to participate in the destruction of a democracy in order to be able to use Turkish airfields for bombing.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8113-2003Feb26.html
( aside: doesn't it seem strange that a close neighbor of Iraq, one which is going to be "saved from saddam" by US bombing according to phony justification for war #4, or is it #3?, has to be PAID in order to allow their own salvation? Or maybe they don't feel so threatened by saddam after all? )
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Twelvepole
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posted on February 27, 2003 05:39:58 AM new
Damn... 
AIN'T LIFE GRAND... 
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profe51
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posted on February 27, 2003 06:00:04 AM new
Who cares about a little ethnic group seeking autonomy?
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Twelvepole
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posted on February 27, 2003 06:06:05 AM new
Unfortunately... I do
This is not something that is good and right... and something I can't support.
IF true.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Feb 27, 2003 06:07 AM ]
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REAMOND
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posted on February 27, 2003 09:26:17 AM new
It is something that is necessary. Once Iraq is free of Hussein, there are no fewer than 3 factions that must meld, the two muslim factions, and the Kurds.
The Kurds are also an ethnic minority in Turkey and Turkey is rightly afraid of the Kurds in both countries joining forces and seeking to start their own country. Bringing strife to both Turkey and Iraq. We can pay Turkey the money now to help keep the peace or we can pay a lot more later if the Kurds destabilize the region.
Turkey has stated and the US has agreed that the only way to prevent a civil war in the north after the fall of Hussein and a destabilizing of parts of Turkey is for Turkey to have a presence there.
If you're looking for perfect and completely fair foreign policy, you're on the wrong planet.
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antiquary
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posted on February 27, 2003 03:09:27 PM new
Back to the bargaining tables..............
Turkey postpones vote
http://www.wn.com/p/5d/481796c2b2fe.html?id=1210668
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Borillar
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posted on February 27, 2003 03:34:23 PM new
The point, REAMOND, the point is to push the remaining Kurdish population into the hands of Al-Queda! Yes! Let's KILL those Americans and Israelis! This is what you want, REAMOND? I think that the price for Turkish airbases is too high as it is! We have aircraft carriers for this very kind of thing. We DON'T NEED TURKEY's AIRBASES!
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Borillar
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posted on February 27, 2003 03:36:48 PM new
And as far as the Turks go, I'd rather see us make a deal with the Kurds for airbases and to HELL with the Turks and their outrageous demands!
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stockticker
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posted on February 27, 2003 04:05:25 PM new
Borillar, Shadowcat made an interesting comment a couple of days ago elsewhere about Turkey. I hope she doesn't mind my repeating it. It sort of makes sense to me:
When we lived in Turkey, we often shopped at the markets. There, haggling isn't only an art form, it is considered the only way to do business. Anyone who isn't prepared to do business-haggle-will get screwed (and possibly laughed at).
All Turkey is doing is haggling. Business as usual.
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Borillar
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posted on February 27, 2003 06:43:50 PM new
I realize that. Only problem is that Bush is making us look like jackasses for being so stupid to give into such extortion. Now they want to break the deal and get more concessions, because the administration fools show such signs of weakness.
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antiquary
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posted on February 28, 2003 02:43:41 PM new
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-iraq-opposition0228feb28,0,7714000.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines
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REAMOND
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posted on February 28, 2003 09:56:51 PM new
Bor- why didn't you feel this way about Clinton giving all that money to North Korea and us getting screwed big time ? At least we may get our monies worth from Bush and get our bases in Turkey.
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antiquary
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posted on March 1, 2003 10:00:45 AM new
Fascinating situation to watch. No one seems exactly sure how the situation is developing.
ANKARA, Turkey (CNN) -- Doubt hung over the news that the Turkish parliament approved on Saturday a measure that would allow the United States to deploy some 62,000 troops on Turkish soil as part of the preparations for a possible war against Iraq.
Opposition leaders challenged the vote, saying that it was not approved by a majority of the parliament's membership.
The vote was 264 in favor, 251 against, and 19 abstaining. With 534 ministers present, a "yes" vote of 268 was needed, according to the opposition.
There was inconclusive discussion in parliament about a possible re-vote -- and the opposition members were said to have walked out of the session.
The proposal has little popular support -- hundreds of thousands of Turks protested on the streets of Ankara, and public opinion polls show that more than 90 percent of the population opposes war.
But the matter has not been so clear-cut for Turkish leaders.
The United States has offered $6 billion in economic aid to offset fears that war could be devastating to Turkey's economy. Refusal to participate could have severely limited Turkey's role during a war and in a post-war Iraq.
U.S. ships carrying troops are waiting off shore and out of sight of the Turkish port of Iskenderun. U.S. officials have said they were confident Turkey would be the point of origin for a northern front in a war with Iraq.
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donny
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posted on March 1, 2003 10:21:25 AM new
I was watching some program on CNN this morning, came in in the middle, don't know what it was, two or three women were discussing the (then) upcoming Turkish Parliament vote, and one of them, a blond, said, irritatedly, something like - "We've said we'd give them money, they said okay, why is this still being voted on??" In other words, they've sold it, we've bought it, why isn't this a done deal? And one of the women replied - Well, Turkey is a Democracy, there's still the Democratic process to go through.
For all our talk about how we want to spread Democracy around the world, we don't like it very much when Democratic process is really happening. What we want is a world of our puppets.
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antiquary
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posted on March 1, 2003 10:38:35 AM new
The blond could have been Ann Coulter. 
From what I've read, even if parliament gives approval, there are still "details to work out," though no one specifies those very clearly. Probably about the role of the Turkish military and the Kurds.
The position of the military in Turkey is very important since they have a tendency to stage coups fairly often. Apparently they have been uncharacteristically silent about the war with Iraq, though I did read some time ago that they would refuse to enter Iraq under any other country's military leadership.
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donny
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posted on March 1, 2003 10:48:18 AM new
If only it had been Ann Coulter, then I'd know there was only one of these running around. It wasn't Ann Coulter, it was some short-haired blond woman. Maybe a poor man's Ann Coulter?
I read that 94% of the Turkish people are against the U.S. - Turkey deal. I don't know how the Turkish military will effect this, but I tend to doubt that Democracy will triumph in Turkey this time.
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antiquary
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posted on March 1, 2003 11:02:33 AM new
Yes, the opposition in Turkey appears to be similar to that in Spain.
I was a little surprised the vote was so close. But however the decision is reached I think you're probably right.
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Twelvepole
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posted on March 1, 2003 03:58:02 PM new
It seems the vote is in and Turkey has bent us over and raped us... well at least they don't get a say in the affairs of Northern Iraq after the war.
I say no more talk with them... just let them sit it out... easy enough for us to land in North Iraq and march south.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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Borillar
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posted on March 1, 2003 04:59:58 PM new
We are so woefully blind and stupid in foreign affairs that it doesn't bear to repeat them here. It just saddens me how crude and stupid and belligerent we are in the face of cultured civilized nation of the world. How backwards and alien we must seem - a holdover from Adolph Hitler or other ancient conqueror who hasn't learned what year that they are really in.
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bunnicula
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posted on March 2, 2003 10:36:46 AM new
It seems the vote is in and Turkey has bent us over and raped us...
???
How is it "raping" us to refuse to allow us to use their land as a staging area for our troops?!?
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
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Twelvepole
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posted on March 2, 2003 12:09:21 PM new
Lets see, we have bent over backwards to be nice to them, promising extra aid and we can't even use the bases that WE built for them?
Maybe raped was too strong a word... I think another that begins with "f" and ends in "ed" would be better...
This just reinforces my position on going isolationist for a while...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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bunnicula
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posted on March 2, 2003 12:23:54 PM new
The bases in question are NATO-built to help Turkey fulfill its NATO obligations.
How dastardly of Turkey to turn down the billions Bush offered to them in exchange for using those bases. How dare they?
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
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neonmania
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posted on March 2, 2003 01:02:58 PM new
Yeah - what's the point of a democracy if it can't be bought? Maybe our officials should have presented themselves as lobbyists instead of diplomats 
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Twelvepole
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posted on March 2, 2003 01:11:27 PM new
You can say they were NATO built all you want, The US built those bases and have kept some personnel there ever since.
Damn right... how dare they... well lets see what happens now.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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gravid
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posted on March 2, 2003 07:19:44 PM new
If they don't play they may be added to the axis of evil list.
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antiquary
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posted on March 5, 2003 09:57:23 AM new
Well, the Kurds and their attempts at democracy may be toast. As well as Turkey's attempts. The chief interest for the Turkish military has been to get the Kurds and it sounds as though that final concession has been made.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-turkey-us-iraq,0,1339969.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld%2Dheadlines
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