posted on March 7, 2003 02:57:45 PM new
cavid - calmer heads that want more evidence before blasting doesn't make anyone anti-American.
CALMER HEADS???? Surely you're joking. These agreements were made in 1991 and where one of the reasons the US didn't go further with the war then. Iraq agreed. Iraq didn't/hasn't complied for 12 years. How much more patient would you feel might just be enough?
Saddam has had 12 years. He has lied and lied and lied and lied. Still there are those Americans who support giving him more time. If our troops weren't on his shores, we wouldn't have the tiny bit of coorperation we are now seeing.
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To clarify my position. When our country shows time and time again, resolution after resolution that Saddam has not honored. Gives him one last chance to do so...and then some in our country choose to call the leaders of our country [both party's] liars and say they're not telling the truth....then yes, I believe they are support Saddam over their own government IN THIS ISSUE.
posted on March 7, 2003 03:10:10 PM new
>Really it is because people that want war are generally to the right [conservative] of center
I know that this sometimes turns out to be the case, but being Conservative does not automatically imply either Republican or Warmongering or even to the Right. Look up what it has traditionally meant to be "Conservative" and some people'll get their eyes wide open.
Quite simply, it means that a Conservative is a defender of the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights and promotes that as Core Values along with traditional northern European work values. That the means to success is self-reliance and hard work and to live a live as virtuously as Christ told us to.
Furthermore, Conservatives tend to be a lot of Anarchistic and try to throw off authoritarian controls from government and attempts by the government to dilute or destroy our freedoms via the United States Constitution and the Bill of rights. Government is seen as a necessary evil, so it must be kept in its proper place because it is the nature of government to be secure by denying the citizenry of its rights.
Now, does that mean that Socialist ideas that work, that follow Christ's Ideals, that benefit society can't be incorporated in Conservatism? No, it does not mean that. Conservatism acknowledges that nations are made up of PEOPLE, not lines drawn upon a map or the type of government or the economic system. Therefore, what is good for people AND for all of society is certainly worth trying -- especially when it follows the Teachings of Jesus Christ.
Conservatism also refers to much more complex things. Put at its simplest, IF the current solution does not work, then what do we do to fix the problem?
There are those that say that we don't bother to fix the problem, that it will fix itself eventually. That's called Regress.
There are those that believe that if we give it MORE; that is, more money, more time, more resources, the problem will get fixed.
There are also those that say that we ought to try other ways to fix things than what we've been doing. Some feel that we ought to do things back the way that things used to be done. At its extreme, that's being Reactionary. Others feel that we ought to be trying new things to fix the problem. At it's extreme, that's being Revolutionary.
Finally, you get to the idea of just how fast we ought to fix the problem, using whatever solutions that we've decided to use. Liberals want change fast, Progressives slowly, Centrists want to stay the course, and Conservatives tend to either want to stay the course or to go back to some other proven methods.
This is why people get so confused when I call myself a Progressive Ultra-Conservative. I believe in our core American Values, the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the Ideals of both our nation's Founding Fathers as well as those of Jesus Christ. I believe that change is necessary, but I prefer a slow application to see what problems arise and find fixes for those aspects before continuing. I damn sure don't trust any government to do anything but to look out for its own self and I sure as Hell do not trust these Republicans, Bush, or these so-called New Conservatives who are noting more than a bunch of Nazi KKK bastards wanting to destroy our American Way of Life!
posted on March 7, 2003 03:11:54 PM new
So...am I supposed to feel bad that you have put me on ignore, junquemama because I hold a different opinion than yours? If that's true, then you're going to have to ignore what about 60% of Americans are saying.
posted on March 7, 2003 03:18:23 PM new
[i]Linda,Linda,Linda. I wish I could see things as logically as you.
There are two sides and a middle here. Not just two sides. That is the way it is in politics[/i].
two sides and a middle: That appears to be right. I do see issues more black or white than gray. If there is a rule....you either follow it or you don't. If you make an agreement you either honor your word or you don't. If you are giving chance after chance and still don't honor your word...then I have no patience to continue giving playing the game.
posted on March 7, 2003 03:30:43 PM new"There are two sides in the issue of disarming Saddam. HIS and OURS. If anyone chooses Saddam side, believes he is being honest with the world, and also believes Bush is lying to us. ... Then that's how I see it. They've chosen Saddam's side."
Linda, follow this very slowly.
Two sides
Either one side is wrong and one side is right.
Or surprise, surprise,
BOTH sides may be wrong.
Or BOTH sides may be right.
If you are member of the white side, you may think that your side is wrong while you may also think that the black side is wrong.
Can you understand that?
Now, the hard part for you.
If you are an American, you may think that your side is wrong on the war issue while STILL recognizing that Saddam is a bad man. And you may think that your leaders are wrong on this issue and still love your country (your side)
[ edited by Helenjw on Mar 7, 2003 03:31 PM ]
posted on March 7, 2003 03:51:50 PM new
I'm scratching my head over the notion that the further left your political views, the- more-peace-loving-you-are. You can't get more extreme left than Communist China and Communist Russia and as history has proved those countries were NEVER peace-loving!
posted on March 7, 2003 03:54:48 PM new
The world would be a much safer and nicer place if there were no extremists - no political extremists (left or right) and no religious extremists.
posted on March 7, 2003 04:14:10 PM new
You appear to be under the impression that the whole world votes on the US president, Helen. Wake up call....they don't.
And as to the whole world voting that Saddam is in violation of the UN resolutions....yes, the whole world did vote he needed to disarm. 15-0.
posted on March 7, 2003 05:02:06 PM new
Irene - I'm aware of that. Does that 15-0 vote hold no meaning for you?
American will act in it's own best interest....just as all the other countries of our world do. Our president had the support of the majority of our Congress when they voted to give him his war power. Some don't like that, but that's the way our system works. If the majority of our leaders didn't agree with the administration's stance, they would have voted it down.
posted on March 7, 2003 06:09:46 PM new
Well then, can one of you rightists (thanks rawbunzel!) tell me what the rush is as far as Iraq? What difference could there be in waiting another couple of months? And why, at first, the idea was to get rid of Saddam but now it's bomb Iraq? And since Iran is part of the evil triad, would you have any objections, if while they were already in Iraq, to go bomb them too?
posted on March 7, 2003 06:36:51 PM new
KD - I've said it before. I dont't think this is a rush. From 1991 to now is not rushing. From last year to now is not rushing. From the first week in Nov. to now is not rushing. This could all be over and done with, had Saddam taken steps to disarm and to be truthful with the UN inspectors.
I have also posted before that the current 'rush' is their weather. Soon it will be very hot there. Their temps get up to 120 degrees. Our troops will have enough to deal with other than wearing these bio/chem uniforms in that kind of heat. Not that they couldn't do it. Just will make it very difficult on them. Having water needed to replenish their bodies will be an issue. There are only certain times when their weather would be in our favor. They have times of terrible rains, when our equipment could get stuck in the mud. They have times of sand storms which could get into the engines of the planes, cause trouble for the other equipment. The president has made statements to the nation about these issues. His concern for our troops and their difficult in these areas.
posted on March 7, 2003 06:45:41 PM new
I love it when someone clicks me... means I can talk about them all I want....
March 17th is the deadline now, President Bush probably will not care if the UN vetos or not... I hope they do, so they can see we don't give a rat's patutie about them any longer... all the support we have given and to be treated this way... Kicke them the hell out...
posted on March 7, 2003 07:21:08 PM new
>I do see issues more black or white than gray. If there is a rule....you either follow it or you don't
Linda, unknowingly, has hit upon the head the theory behind diplomacy and the reason for the United Nations. Conflicts often devolve into simple black and white issues. Quite often. violence is the answer, but not a good solution. Black or white, one side or the other, which is it to be? Should the government kill all of the people or should the people go kill the government? Or, should we kill that government before they kill this one?
Diplomacy was invented to create a third option. An option where each side gets soe, but not all that it wants. Hopefully, enough to prevent violence. Without diplomacy, the world is left to Might Makes Right and the Tyranny of Absolute Power.
So, yes, the world can devolve into simple black and white terms. I know about people who have to have the world explained to them in those terms. Those are the types who make good foot soldiers for fascists and other power-mad leaders. They make the body of Fundamentalist religions. They see leaders as paternalistic and patriarchal, there to lead them and to mother them and to keep them in line. Yes, I know these types and for some reason, this world keeps producing them to this world's dismay and horror. These are the types that I keep on saying need to be limited to simple physical labor eighteen hours a day, seven days a week and have armed guards supervising them day and night. The rest of us would feel that much safer.
