gravid
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posted on March 23, 2003 09:06:10 AM new
Rumsfields says it is a violation of the Geneva Conventions to show American troops in the media after they are captured.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14285-2003Mar23.html
Doesn't that mean that all the pictures I've seen of Iraqi troops being captured are illegal as well? Seems hypocritical.
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neonmania
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posted on March 23, 2003 09:31:52 AM new
Gravid. That does seem kind of strange. The originl comments I heard were that he was saying that executing prisoners was a violation and that they were breaking the law. Maybe he was referring to the photos of executed prisoners? Knowing how garbled the news is today, he was stating that what was in the pictures was a villation, not the pictures themselves.
If the photos are a violation, what is the bounty they have offer and did we honestly think that Saddam was going to hold to the Geneva convention. When I first heard the "that's a violation, they are breaking the law" fomment I thought it sounded silly and niave.
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Helenjw
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posted on March 23, 2003 10:03:25 AM new
"In recent days ICRC has reminded the governments of Iraq, the United Kingdom and the United States of their obligations under the Geneva Conventions which they have all signed, to protect lives and preserve human dignity at a time when it is at greatest risk. To this end, formal representations have been made."
This is a copy of the letter sent to the United States, Iraq and the UK before the war.
It's probably been violated many times.
Helen
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Twelvepole
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posted on March 23, 2003 10:07:35 AM new
any one curious can read about the Geneva Convention here:
http://193.194.138.190/html/menu3/b/91.htm
neonmania, so what branch of the armed forces did you serve in?
The US and allies are about the only ones who follow the Geneva Convention... even though many nations have signed...
But then again, that is war trials are about and those responsible will pay...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND... 
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neonmania
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posted on March 23, 2003 11:23:46 AM new
neonmania, so what branch of the armed forces did you serve in?
Que? Never have. Signed up for Air Force but the final physical and a never repaired torn ACL got into a big disagreement 
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Twelvepole
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posted on March 23, 2003 11:26:29 AM new
Figures...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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neonmania
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posted on March 23, 2003 11:45:14 AM new
Figures...
Ladies and gentlemen... I'm proud to present, still another example of intelligence and relevence courtesy of our friend Twelve.
Sorry Twelve, with no health insurance and being all of twelve at the time I was unable to pay for ACL surgery. Did your question have a point or were you just hoping for an opening for an irelevent cheap shot?
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Julesy
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posted on March 23, 2003 12:51:17 PM new
Don't worry, Neomania. Most (not all) of the guys I've encountered on the internet who claim to be ex-military (and use this fantasy to belittle others) fall into the same category as those guys who claim to be lawyers with sports cars, full heads of hair and 10" dicks.
You know, the kooky-live-in-a-fantasy-world types. Usually, they really work as mall-cops, drive ford escorts, and have dicks so small you'd have to send out a search party to find it. 
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funvolt
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posted on March 23, 2003 01:12:32 PM new
Yes gravid and the rest of you, there is a difference
They showed the faces of American corpses
Not people with their hands in the air
They showed WOUNDED Americans being questioned
not prisoners waving a white flag
It sickens me that at a time like this when our sons and daughters have been killed and the remaining of the living American prisoners surely face mistreatment and torture, that you have found in the coldest corner of your heart such a pitiful comparison.
Right now the AMERICAN prisoners that were shown on TV being questioned could be dead as you sit comfortably at your keyboard posting in a chat room your theory that we might be hypocrites.
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gravid
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posted on March 23, 2003 01:22:30 PM new
Yeah I worry about it and no apologies for sitting at my keyboard Rumsfield and Bush are not sitting anywhere they are hearing bullets snap by you know. Never will be.
I saw pics on the news of Iraqi soldiers dead with a white flag in their hands - so get off the high horse.
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Helenjw
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posted on March 23, 2003 01:39:36 PM new
funvolt, Get off your high horse! You're not making a lick of sense.
Helen
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Twelvepole
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posted on March 23, 2003 01:41:33 PM new
Yeah but you liked when I gave it to you Julesy...
Good to see you posting again... still haven't figured out the difference between sh*t and apple butter yet though have ya.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Mar 23, 2003 01:45 PM ]
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KatyD
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posted on March 23, 2003 01:51:22 PM new
I saw pics on the news of Iraqi soldiers dead with a white flag in their hands - so get off the high horse.
Yep, those are probably the ones who "surrender" only to attack. But you probably don't believe western media.
KatyD
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gravid
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posted on March 23, 2003 02:13:27 PM new
Actually it was CBS but I went back to get the URL and the pics are different in the slide show.
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funvolt
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posted on March 23, 2003 02:15:42 PM new
If being more concerned about the Americans who have been captured and what they are enduring puts me on a high horse , then that is will i will remain.
Feel free to analyze everything that could possibly shed negative light on America.
Enjoy the right to do what the Iraqi people have not had the opportunity to.
But try to spare a moment from your deep political analysis to ponder that those Americans who have been taken prisoner may be taking their last breath.
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gravid
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posted on March 23, 2003 02:19:13 PM new
[url]http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/144/706/ssMain.asp?fmt=child&sld=5&res=8x6&0ss=N1b4144706
[/url]
two wrongs don't make a right
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funvolt
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posted on March 23, 2003 02:28:11 PM new
Thank you for proving my point.
They did not show their faces.
They did not hold the head of deceased and turn it towards the camera.
But think what you will.
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Twelvepole
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posted on March 23, 2003 04:32:00 PM new
I hope the Iraqis that want to surrender realize what their zealot brethern are doing for them by pretending to surrender...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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gravid
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posted on March 23, 2003 06:35:38 PM new
Very true twelvepole and I also refused to play the video of the prisoners. Why honor the propaganda? Did I have to assure myself it was gruesome?
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colin
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posted on March 24, 2003 03:55:34 AM new
Saddam says any of his people surrendering will be shot in the back by the Iraqi troops. I guess they're screw every which way but loose.
Unfortunately I see the smirk of joy in some of the posters. I know they will deny it but it's there.
As if your saying, we got what we deserve. Your the same ones that swear your antiwar and not anti-American.
I suspect the more violent protesters will be treated differently from now on. I'm hoping we hire some Israeli Bulldozer drivers.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
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neonmania
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posted on March 24, 2003 04:41:19 AM new
Colin - How is the view up there?
::Unfortunately I see the smirk of joy in some of the posters. I know they will deny it but it's there. ::
Do you honestly believe that anyone on these boards is happy to see American soldiers held prisoner or dead? If so, rather than making this kind of inflamatory statement and cowardly saying that "you know they are out there" - name them. If you are going to lay those kind of accusation at the feet of someone, then stand up and do it outright.
::As if your saying, we got what we deserve. Your the same ones that swear your antiwar and not anti-American.::
Who on these board in any thread has made that statement. Or are you just trying to float more accusatory retoric to lift yourself above others?
::I suspect the more violent protesters will be treated differently from now on.::
Are you stating that you hope that our police take on a policy of violating the civil rights of protestors in the name of soldiers captured and killed while fighting to free a nation from a regime that denied even the most basic of civil rights to its citizens? Which school of logic did you pull that from?
::I'm hoping we hire some Israeli Bulldozer drivers.::
Wow. You really are just steeped in hatred aren't you. Isn't the freedom to have and display a disenting opinion without the risk of reprisals and death a cornerstone of the American Ideals you have wrapped yourself so tightly in?
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Linda_K
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posted on March 24, 2003 05:03:41 AM new
funvolt states: "Yes, there is a difference." And I agree with the list he/she provided in a defensive manner. [of our country and how we act vs how a regime like Saddam acts].
I have a very hard time understanding how when the Iraqi's surrender and we take their guns and tell them to go, and when they capture our soldiers they torture and kill them could even remotely appear to be hypocritical to anyone.
It does appear to me too, as it did to others here, that some are NEVER on our {US} side of the issue. Maybe that's not the way they really feel, maybe that's not the way they mean for it to come across, but that is how it's being taken by many of us. Just like funvolt's statement below:
Feel free to analyze everything that could possibly shed negative light on America.
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neonmania
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posted on March 24, 2003 05:39:36 AM new
::I have a very hard time understanding how when the Iraqi's surrender and we take their guns and tell them to go, and when they capture our soldiers they torture and kill them could even remotely appear to be hypocritical to anyone. ::
Linda, What the Iraqis did was horrific and the additional thought of our soldiers being subject to the type of treatment testified to by former Iraqi POWs is equally horrific. I doubt there is anyone on these boards so cold blooded as to think differently.
What was at question was the indignation from Rumsfeld over the violation of the Geneva convention aspect that forbids showing POWs in an "embarassing" (I quote that because that is the aspect being cited) light in a public forum in light of all of the shots we have seen of American troups standing with guns drawn on groups of Iraqi POWs. I'm betting you that in light of his comment and the fact that the same question has been posed to American officials that you won't be seeing many more of those pictures.
We are both technically in violation of the GC in this area. The fact that their images were more grusome and exploitative does not absolve us of our transgressions.
I'd like to ask a question of you because you are one of the few in the group apt to label others anti american that will answer a direct question with a direct answer....
Why is it that anyone that questions the actions of our government (especially this one which was a very logical question) is judged to be Anti-US to you, even when you yourself state that you don't truly believe that they are.
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REAMOND
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posted on March 24, 2003 06:24:41 AM new
You don't know what you're talking about Neo.
The GC admonishes the government from exploiting the prisoners, not a free press filming a live surrender situation.
There is a huge difference between filming a surrender and actually staging a media event of tortured and murdered POWs by the government.
Your statement "We are both technically in violation of the GC in this area. The fact that their images were more grusome and exploitative does not absolve us of our transgressions" is just another case of the anti-American blame America first attitude.
You are labeled "anti-American" because your statements reflect such sentiments.
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neonmania
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posted on March 24, 2003 06:35:12 AM new
Reamond - I believe that you may be the only one that has actually labeled me anti-american. Considering that you would label an apple that fell of the tree and rolled to the left anti-american I don't think that you will be shocked to find that I do not hold your opinion in high regard.
[ edited by neonmania on Mar 24, 2003 06:36 AM ]
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funvolt
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posted on March 24, 2003 06:37:38 AM new
They will never see anything but what they want to see Linda_K
They are drunk on political party dissent.
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REAMOND
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posted on March 24, 2003 06:49:13 AM new
Oh it's not just a "label", it is a true and honest evaluation of your statements here.
[ edited by REAMOND on Mar 24, 2003 06:55 AM ]
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Helenjw
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posted on March 24, 2003 07:14:47 AM new
The term, "anti-American" has become tired rhetoric used by the ignorant, signifying nothing.
It's reached the point that anyone who is opposed to Bush policy is anti-American.
What nonsense!
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Linda_K
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posted on March 24, 2003 07:32:57 AM new
Sorry - had to get some packages ready for shipping so my hubby could get them to the PO.
Why is it that anyone that questions the actions of our government (especially this one which was a very logical question) is judged to be Anti-US to you, even when you yourself state that you don't truly believe that they are.
It's not a matter of questioning/discussing issues. It's the responses that come in these discussions. When one reads many posts, one see's patterns. Some here don't appear to EVER question the actions of the enemy, the UN, other countries....but ALWAYS question our nations decisions/actions. And those same people appear, to me and obviously others, as always siding with those who believe everything we do is wrong, unfair, not enough, hypocritical. So it is difficult when only reading negative statements about one's country, to not form this opinion.
And your 'even when you yourself' statement is not correct. I do believe many posters here are in the 'blame America first' group. I do believe many statements that have been made here [on the different threads] are anti-American statements.
When I read funvolt's reply to gravid's thread topic, I agreed with what they said. I see it the same way they were seeing it.
For this thread when I read anyone who believes we're being hypocritical in following the GC, when they can see how differently the US handles enemies, I see that as saying we're no better....we're no different. And that's just not true.
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Helenjw
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posted on March 24, 2003 07:34:05 AM new
If you march in a parade because you believe in peace, they will call you anti-American.
Helen
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