posted on March 25, 2003 08:34:03 PM new
Here's something Borillar (where are you?) has talked about before and it made me wonder if anyone believes that this war has to happen...
When we go to war in Iraq we will do so to summon the Messiah. That is what
the Christian right believes. The final battle to rid the world of all non-believers,
non-Christians, more exactly non-Evangelical Christians, is going to take place
very soon at Armageddon in Israel. The Bible tells us so.
Rev. Jerry Falwell believes fully, and un-equivocally that we must go to war with
Iraq to set in motion the cataclysmic events that will ensure the second coming of
Jesus Christ. War with Iraq will lead to the end of the World, as we know it. God
will reign and Jerry Falwell will sit at the right hand of God.
Israel will be no more. Israel will be destroyed during the apocalypse. Any Jews
that survive anywhere will be converted to Christianity. Or more precisely,
Evangelical Christianity.
The Moslems, the Jews, the Buddhists, the Hindus, the Shintos, the Animists, the
Voodooists, the Catholics, et al, will be converted to the Evangelical Christian
legions of the Lord commanded by Jerry Falwell.
If you believe otherwise, if you believe that Biblical prophesies as interpreted by
the Christian right are so much lunacy, you are in the helpless majority. Because
the Christian right has extraordinary influence in the administration of President
George Bush. George Bush is one of their number. He does not attempt to hide
this; he is quite deliberate in his public discussions of his re-birth, and his salvation.
He was saved from a life of excess when he embraced the rigorous teachings of the
Christian Evangelicals.
The Christian right managed, through the rebirth of George Bush, to gain a good
measure of influence over the most powerful nation on this earth. The Christian
right believes that only the apocalypse will purify the souls of the heretics, and the
United States will be the instrument to bring forth God’s wrath. The great
resources, the military might, of the United States is part of the divine plan to
bring the Apocalypse upon us.
Jerry Falwell has made the truth about the administration's desperate attempts to
go t o war with Iraq frighteningly clear. Falwell has said publicly he believes
Mohammad the Prophet was evil. Falwell said that Mohammad was a terrorist.
That is why he and the Christian fundamentalists support Israel in their battle
against the Palestinians. Because the battle Israel is fighting against the Moslem
Palestinians is to reclaim the lands of biblical Israel. Evangelicals believe the lands
of ancient Israel must be reunited in order to fulfill the biblical prophesy of Christ’s
return to earth.
That is why George Bush makes no effort to stop Ariel Sharon’s furious attempt to
drive the Palestinians from the occupied territories. Sharon will restore the ancient
Hebrew Kingdom, including Judea and Samaria, provinces which make up the
modern-day West Bank. George Bush makes no effort to protect the Palestinian
leader Yasser Arafat because the Evangelicals tell him not to.
When President Bush told the Israelis to withdraw their tanks and troops from the
occupied territories last April, Falwell sent him a letter of protest. Falwell had his
followers send one hundred thousand emails to President Bush to support his
demand. Israel did not withdraw its tanks and troops and George Bush stopped
calling. George Bush has given Ariel Sharon a free hand since.
The Evangelicals are Bush’s core support. They are the people who helped him
defeat John McCain, who once called Jerry Falwell "evil". in the crucial South
Carolina primary. Falwell’s Evangelicals called thousands of South Carolina voters
to inform them that McCain has a black child. (McCain and his wife Cindy adopted
a little girl from Bangladesh.) These righteous people do not believe in the mixing
of the races. The Bible tells them the mixing of race is an abomination.
These same pious people, who await the coming of Christ, find nothing wrong with
murdering doctors who perform abortions. These virtuous people and their leader
are the same people who have condemned homosexuals, and will never give
women the right to an abortion. These devout people regard other religious beliefs
as heresy. They want to go to war with Iraq so that millions will die in the
apocalyptic horror that will follow for their own salvation.
What is frightening is the language President Bush uses when he describes Saddam
and others as the "Evil Ones," the "Evil Doers," to incite the American people to
war. They are the same descriptions; carrying the same religious connotations,
that Jerry Falwell and his flock employ to describe non-believers. George Bush is a
child of their beliefs. George Bush seems to believe he and Ariel Sharon are locked
in a struggle together against the "Evil Ones" for the world’s salvation.
Sharon represents the key to the coming salvation. The Evangelicals adore him.
Sharon has said often he wants to reclaim the land of ancient Israel. He believes
the Palestinians have a homeland – called Jordan. He does not want peace with the
Palestinians, and he does not want Iraq to remain a threat to Israel. Sharon and
Falwell have formed a partnership based on the lunacy of biblical prophecies, and
the insanity of Sharon’s vision of the resurrection of the ancient Hebrew Kingdom.
We, the majority of Americans, are only observers, and have no real influence to
stop what will surely occur. There may be a reason for the war. Saddam is truly a
very bad person. He should be removed. But he is not the only bad person who
runs a country. Where do we stop? Or do we stop at the second coming?
What worries me is that we may be going to war to fulfill what a few deluded
people believe to be biblical prophecy. And what really worries me is that we have
a President who might believe this nonsense, too.
posted on March 26, 2003 04:47:02 AM new
so how about some help for those who they both sound alike too? What's the difference from your perspective? Basic theology or mouthyness?
posted on March 26, 2003 04:55:34 AM new
Whoever wrote that piece is a great liar and does a GREAT job of twisting the facts to their own opinions. I'd like the ask them to show where Falwell has been quoted as saying the things he's accused of saying. Bet they couldn't do it.
I can say you said anything, but that doesn't make it true. What a bunch of BS.
posted on March 26, 2003 05:01:27 AM new
gravid - In almost each paragraph that person stated, there's either a lie or a twist of the truth.
First paragraph - When we go to war in Iraq we will do so to summon the Messiah. That is what the Christian right believes. That's not the reason this administration felt Saddam needed to be removed, nor disarmed. And since Clinton agreed with this needing to be done, would that put him in the league of the 'religious right' or Falwell? NO Would that be the reason Joe Lieberman also feels this war has reason? NO etc etc etc
posted on March 26, 2003 05:38:12 AM newIf we are going to save America and evangelize the world, we cannot accommodate secular philosophies that are diametrically opposed to Christian truth.
-- Jerry Falwell, "Moral Majority Report" for September, 1984
I put all the blame legally and morally on the actions of the terrorist, [but America's] secular and anti-Christian environment left us open to our Lord's [decision] not to protect. When a nation deserts God and expels God from the culture ... the result is not good.
-- Rev. Jerry Falwell, backpedaling amidst criticism of his statement blaming civil libertarians, feminists, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, quoted from John F. Harris, "God Gave U.S. 'What We Deserve,' Falwell Says," The Washington Post (September 14, 2001)
The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.-- Rev. Jerry Falwell, Sermon, July 4, 1976
I am convinced that America can be turned around if we will all get serious about the Master's business. It may be late, but it is never too late to do what is right. We need an old-fashioned, God-honoring, Christ-exalting revival to turn American back to God. America can be saved!
-- Jerry Falwell, "Moral Majority Report" for September, 1984
You'll be riding along in an automobile. You'll be the driver perhaps. You're a Christian. There'll be several people in the automobile with you, maybe someone who is not a Christian. When the trumpet sounds you and the other born-again believers in that automobile will be instantly caught away - you will disappear, leaving behind only your clothes and physical things that cannot inherit eternal life. That unsaved person or persons in the automobile will suddenly be startled to find the car suddenly somewhere crashes.... Other cars on the highway driven by believers will suddenly be out of control and stark pandemonium will occur on ... every highway in the world where Christians are caught away from the drivers wheel.
-- Jerry Falwell, in his pamphlet, "Nuclear War and the Second Coming of Christ," quoted from Ronnie Dugger,"Does Reagan Expect a Nuclear Armageddon?" in Washington Post Outlook (April 8, 1984)
I don't know if Pres. Bush believes this war is pre-ordained in some biblical sense, but I do believe it's possible he's being used by some who might believe that way.It's clear that Falwell and his ilk would like to see the US become an officially christian nation.
Of all the dreck that has come from Falwell's mouth , this one is my favorite
Grown men should not be having sex with prostitutes unless they are married to them.
-- Jerry Falwell, on CNN's Crossfire, May 17, 1997
posted on March 26, 2003 05:48:57 AM new
I don't put any faith in what Jerry Falwell says - after all, this is a man who went after Tinky Winky (the purple TeleTubby) - a TOY! LOL
Everytime he opens his mouth, he makes an even bigger fool of himself...
posted on March 26, 2003 05:52:21 AM new
profe - Please take one or two of the Falwell quotes you've just shared and then compare them to one of the statements made in the post by KD and let's discuss them. I really believe a lot of what is said is interrupted in a way it was not meant. So...let's try discussing this with one or two of the statements made in KDs initial post, rather than discussing the merits or lack thereof of every statement Falwell has ever made. okay?
posted on March 26, 2003 05:58:27 AM new
This just proves that the "Church of Here and Now" is the only true word.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
http://www.reverendcolin.com/
posted on March 26, 2003 06:03:27 AM new
wgn - I agree. But my point is that much of what the writer in KDs post is saying is twisted. I have never heard him make those statements. The writer has taken a 'core' belief of Christians then twisted it all around. Gravid asked to have the difference explained to him. So....I'm willing to give it a shot...althought I'd be the first to admit I'm NOT the most qualified to do so. But I wish to stay in the parimeters that have been established in the initial post.
What this writer is doing is painting ALL Christians as being 'Jerry Falwell' like. They aren't. Most aren't that extreme. But it we listed a super far left extremist, they'd be screaming that's not a true representation of the majority of those on the 'left' or those 'radical muslims'.
This is painting with a VERY broad brush.
[ edited by Linda_K on Mar 26, 2003 06:05 AM ]
posted on March 26, 2003 09:59:25 AM new
I agree 100 percent with Linda_K. Paintiing all Christians as evangelical loons (or even painting all evangelical Christians as loons per se) is unfair and unwarranted.
However, I have no problem putting Jerry Falwell in the "loon" category, and I am worried about the influence that people like him seem to have over the upper echelons of the Republican party. His ministry has always seemed to be more about profit, scare tactics and politics than God. When I think about Billy Graham at all - and I admit, I don't think about him very much as anything but a beaming benign presence on TV - he seems like a Godly man who, while having made some mistakes in his life, is more representative of mainstream Christianity.
The idea that any Christian would believe the Messiah could be "summoned" like a golden retriever is just kinda weird, even if you take a very literal reading of the book of Revelation and salt it heavily with selections from alarmist works about the "end times." It always seemed to me that the reason for pushing that line of faith was to scare people back onto the straight and narrow before the Great Tribulation (and convince them to buy your books.)
If that's what you use to guide your faith, then you're really missing out on the everyday joy and strength that a close relationship with God can bring. But hey, that's just me.
[ edited by msincognito on Mar 26, 2003 10:00 AM ]
posted on March 26, 2003 10:20:36 AM new
I've never heard of the connection between the Iraq war and the end of the world until I read this article. I know it's a joke to the people here, but it made me wonder if some people really believe this guy and if he really has that much influence over Bush... I hope not.
posted on March 26, 2003 12:01:53 PM new
Apparently he does...
Remember that interview where he personally takes credit for getting Bush the Lesser to back off Israel and allow them to continue to pound the Palestinians?
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both boldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar
posted on March 26, 2003 01:03:58 PM new
Thanks for the reasoned response. The car thing is a hoot I must admit. Is God really so indifferent and careless he'd just snatch a bunch away causing mass destruction? I guess a few christians would be piloting airliners too........And I'm shocked they don't take their clothing. I guess they get robes issued automatically?
posted on March 26, 2003 03:02:39 PM new
ebayauctionguy, I feel that Falwell is a lunatic so it worries me that some people (possibly Bush too) follow his "teachings" even though they seem to border on psychosis.
And like Linda mentioned, anything can be written to make a person look more foolish than they already are, but I've heard him say weird stuff about how the world will end and how we'll know the last days are near, etc., - just haven't heard the Iraqi war as being the catalyst. If I remember the Bible correctly, I thought no one would know when the end is near. Isn't that true?
posted on March 26, 2003 03:24:53 PM newI've heard him say weird stuff about how the world will end and how we'll know the last days are near, etc.,
Don't know who you are referring to as 'him', but most people who have any sort of Christian religious teachings belief 'this' could be 'the time' [end times] whenever there is a major world situation.
And on the I thought no one would know when the end is near. Isn't that true? That's always been my understanding. No one would know and no one can 'cause' it.
posted on March 26, 2003 03:28:13 PM new
I should clarify. The Bible does give examples of things that will happen during this 'end time'. So for those versed in those warning....they would recognize that 'this could be it'.
posted on March 26, 2003 03:39:33 PM new
I should read more Linda. I find the Bible fascinating, but when I hear the likes of Falwell speaking about how much of a creep God is, it makes me wonder who's side he's really on.
posted on March 26, 2003 04:52:58 PM new
the Bible is a little more than fasinating
Jerry Falwell is a Southern Baptist and extremist to the nth.
George Bush is a Methodist
Methodists are a little like Catholics in their dogma...they don't have the Pope as their 'head' of Church, nor Priests or Nuns, but there service (But NOT a Catholic Mass!) is a little similiar
You should look up Billy Graham... he not only ministered to George Bush Sr AND the present Geo. Bush, but also Clinton, and every President down to about Truman
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on March 26, 2003 06:14:40 PM new
In the war the Bible talks about,it is Israel who is attacked and when it looks like they have no hope they cry for the Messiah which summons the return of Christ.Some believe the anti-christ will come from the Catholic church.
posted on March 26, 2003 07:27:24 PM new
Near, I used to watch Billy Graham as a child because that's all that was on on Sundays. All those guys used to scare me. Actually, the whole church thing used to scare me. Even though I have my own beliefs, the ways in which the Bible is interpreted and how organized religion came to be, amazes me.
That's interesting MAH. Have any of the signs of the end coming happened yet?
posted on March 26, 2003 08:15:29 PM new In the war the Bible talks about,it is Israel who is attacked and when it looks like they have no hope they cry for the Messiah which summons the return of Christ.Some believe the anti-christ will come from the Catholic church.
Some believe almost anything you can think of. I had a mother remove her kid from my classroom a few years back. She told me in no uncertain terms that she would not have her daughter exposed to teachings of "darwinism", and that any God fearing Christian knows that the earth is only 6,000 years old. I told her I fully supported her right to parent her child according to her beliefs, and that it was my opinion she should remove her daughter post haste.She did.Too bad, but I had 25 others to worry about. I had another parent accuse me of being "godless" because I politely refused her request to post the Ten Commandments in my classroom.She was part of a group at her local evangelical church who was making offers of free posters of the commandments to classrooms throughout the county, at the urging of their pastor. I explained to her that although most of them are real good rules to live by, that first one, which declares that there is only one god, preaches religious dogma which is not universally accepted by all beliefs, and therefore is not only unacceptable but illegal in a secular, public American classroom.It became quite the interesting battle. I won. Discussing this with educators at conferences, on line and other places, I've come to the conclusion that Borillar is right, there is a concerted effort going on in this country to bring religion into public schools.It is increasingly successful.Even the US Congress has voted in support of this very thing.
As I said in my original post, I don't know if Bush's version of evangelism extends to some lunatic notion of starting Armageddon, but when you look at the extent to which these people are having success and the influence in national politics they have, in my mind it's not too much of a stretch to think that they might influence his actions.
posted on March 26, 2003 10:18:00 PM new
So I take it you guys/gals who think our President is too religious won't be thrilled if resolution H. Res 153 passes the House then. It's already passed in the Senate.
The resolution would declare a "National Day of Humility, Prayer and Fasting."
Taken from the AP toay:
Rep. Todd Akin, R-Mo., chief sponsor of the measure, said it has long been America's way, "when we get into an armed conflict, to turn to God and to ask his support."
The resolution notes that the Continental Congress, on March 16, 1776, called for a day of "humiliation, fasting and prayer" in light of the dangers to American liberty, and that on March 30, 1863, Abraham Lincoln, "recognizing the need of the nation to humble itself before God in repentance for its national sins, proclaimed a day of fasting, prayer and humiliation."
The resolution says Americans should use the day of prayer "to seek guidance from God to achieve a greater understanding of our own failings and to learn how we can do better in our everyday activities, and to gain resolve in meeting the challenges that confront our nation."
posted on March 27, 2003 05:32:34 AM new
Considered by itself, the resolution does have historical precedent. One objection I would have is if prayer is somehow mandated.Encouraging a day of reflection upon our current crisis is important.
I don't usually buy into slippery-slope arguments ie; "they want me to register my AR-15, the next thing you know they'll take away my pocket knife"...but as regards the politicization of religion, I'm afraid we might just be on one. My guess would be that this might turn from a day of "humility, prayer and fasting" into a day of "Please Jesus help us smite the evil dictator/s". In that case, no thanks.
BTW, for the record, I don't think the president is "too religious".
